Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

While MichaelJ seems to realize that he's unappealing to women, he really doesn't understand why. So, he blames it on the women--they have "unrealistic ideals" or the fact he doesn't have enough money, isn't good-looking enough, etc.--i.e. he can't measure up to other men.

What he's not realizing is that his personality traits are a turnoff. He's angry, depressed, emotionally needy and immature, relentlessly negative in his attitudes, socially awkward and withdrawn, self-pitying, overly defensive, and rather committed to remaining that way. He doesn't like himself, and he wouldn't be attracted to a woman, or a male friend, whose personality traits were similar to his. That's the answer to why he isn't more successful with women.
If he wants to be appealing to women--or anyone, for that matter--he's got a lot of self-improvement and emotional maturing to work on.

The obsession with "procreation" is just nuts, and it's divorced from reality. MichaelJ isn't taking good care of himself, he's not ready to have a child he'd have to care for, nor is he in a financial position to support a child. He has a fantasy of having a child to satisfy his own needs, but he doesn't understand the child he has to care for first is himself.

You're right, perfectly average folks, of all descriptions, are able to find partners, and companions, and form relationships, and have kids--you don't have to be particularly good-looking, or financially successful, or talented in any sphere, to form emotional bonds and connections with another person--but you do have to have personal qualities that will appeal to other people, and that's part of having social skills, and those things are learned, and can be developed. From everything that MichaelJ has said, he's quite lacking in that area, and all the bullshit he's tossing around keeps him from developing in that area because it's all an excuse to keep him from changing and growing, and it's all extremely self-defeating because he convinces himself he's helpless. He nails his own feet to the floor and then doesn't understand why he can't walk.

I think we ought to go back to MichaelJ's opening post--it sums up his problem in a nutshell.


That statement is a challenge. It says, I know I'm right, you can't convince me I'm wrong, I'm helpless, and my situation and life is hopeless. And I'll counter anything you say to the contrary.

Is this guy looking for advice and help? No way. Does he realize he's creating his own problem, and that it's a recipe for frustration and failure and depression? No way.

Who, in their right mind, decides that the meaning of their life depends on achieving an unobtainable goal? That's the first problem with the way MichaelJ thinks.

If something is really unobtainable, you either abandon it as a goal, or you put it way back on the back burner, and you work toward those goals which are definitely more obtainable.

So, what's MichaelJ's unobtainable goal? Well, it's to be married and have a family. And, primarily, he wants to be a father--he wants to replace the family he lost when his parents died--being a husband, and being involved in that type of relationship with a woman, is not the main part of his fantasy.

In fact, MichaelJ seems to resent the fact that he cannot "procreate" without the cooperation of a female--women seem to be a necessary evil in his fantasy, because he needs them to supply a uterus and an egg--if he could magically have a child without them, he apparently would. He's pissed he's deprived of having a uterus and eggs, and that's why he resents, and envies, women for their ability to "create life". His knowledge of basic biology is obviously bad-- women don't "create life" any more than men do--it takes both to create new life. And, he just knows that no woman, ever, is going to let him use her egg and her uterus to create his child. That's really the essence of all that "procreation" bullshit he's been tossing around.

And, none of this stuff suggests a man who wants an actual relationship with a real life woman. It's about the fantasy of having a family and being a dad.

Okay, now that MichaelJ has told us that he is "100% convinced" this won't happen, how come he can't focus on other goals, including goals that might bring him some partial satisfaction of what he wants, or might satisfy other needs? Why does he stay completely fixated on something that only frustrates him and makes him feel helpless and deprived and miserable? Why is he choosing to drive himself nuts in that way? Why can't he create other goals for himself to give his life meaning? He's the one who's deciding what's meaningful, so how come he can't invest meaning into something else? He's fully in control of being able to do that--he's the one creating his own values, and attitudes, and "dreams"--he can change them if he wants to. But that would mean he isn't helpless, and, thinking of himself as helpless is very important to MichaelJ--he doesn't want to let go of that part of his identity--it may be crazy, but he's got to hang on to irrationally believing he's helpless.

MichaelJ thinks he's helpless about loads of things--everything from what to do with his hair to his financial situation. The hair can be solved by a visit to a good hair stylist, and the financial situation can be addressed by a little more effort and ambition--a second job, a job move to a better paying position, getting qualified to work in a better paying position, ditching a car that's a "money pit" etc.--the sorts of things most people do to help get out of debt, and assure a more secure financial future for themselves--and MichaelJ's not helpless to do those things.

And, while being a dad isn't available to him right now, why doesn't he find other ways to interact with and mentor children? He is an uncle, and uncles can be a very important part of a child's life, particularly a caring single uncle who can invest his time and energy and love into the lives of his nieces and nephews. Even if they live at a distance, the internet and Skype make maintaining connections much easier these days. MichaelJ does have family, he has siblings, and it's his choice how much he wants to make them part of his life--he's not helpless about doing that.

Lots of children don't have a parent, or a dad, to help them with things and they do need other adult males to fill that role. The community I live in is always looking for adults who can give time to help a child with their homework--something very basic, and many children don't have a parent in their home to help them with their homework. Organizations like Big Brothers Big Sisters constantly look for mentors who can spend some time every week, like a Saturday, or Sunday, with a child, doing the sort of things a dad might do, and to provide a positive influence in the life of a child. MichaelJ's not helpless--if he likes the idea of being an adult mentor to a child, which is essentially what a dad is, he can find opportunities to fill that sort of need in himself. You don't have to "procreate" to have a child to care about, or share things with, you can do it with someone else's child. And, it's all good practice if you someday do have a child of your own.

So, all this helpless/hopeless stuff that MichaelJ clings to is all nonsense. He's not helpless and his life situation is far from hopeless. He's got all sorts of options open to him in just about every area of his life. He's a single guy who is independent, and he's not answerable to, or responsible for, anyone else--he has total freedom and independence to do what he wants, and he fails to appreciate that aspect of his life. Are his options unlimited? Of course not. Are anyone's options unlimited? We just choose the best of the options available to us--we make the most of what we can.

But, if MichaelJ continues to restrict his own choice of options, by keeping his thinking rigid and fixed, with attitudes like, "I'm 100% convinced that what I want in life is unattainable," and he doesn't start focusing on what is obtainable, and what is fully within his control to obtain, he'll continue to be one miserable dude, and it will be his own doing.

But, he won't listen to any of us. He really made that clear in his opening post. He's determined to go on feeling helpless and hopeless. He's using this thread to prove that.

As I said in my previous post, he nails his own feet to the floor and then doesn't understand why he can't walk.

The problem is depression like this can be so seductive. You convince yourself that the world is as dark and horrible as you think it is. People who think otherwise are stupid and deluded. This means that only you have the clarity of vision and insight to see the world as it really is. You can see the truth of things almost uniquely, that makes you ver special indeed, despite how horrible everything is. It's one of the few 'positive' things you can hold on to.

In order to cheer up, you've also got to accept that you're the one being delusional and that your vision is blurred, fuzzy and confused. It's a further blow to the ego.

I wonder if he's jealous of his sister's marriage and children.

He may well be, to be quite honest, he's in a place that I don't really want to dwell on too much, it's depressing just thinking about it.

You can lead a horse to water and all that.

He is, he said so. And he has other siblings as well.


This is all part of his general envy of other people--he sees almost everyone as having something he doesn't have, and he feels cheated and short-changed in numerous ways. He dwells on what he doesn't have, and he doesn't make the most of what he does have, including the ability and potential to make his life much more satisfying for himself.

I'm not sure his main problem is depression. I did at the outset, but I've changed my mind as this thread has gone on. I think his main problems are feelings of inadequacy, anxiety, and rage--associated with a personality disorder--those factors really inhibit his functioning and whatever chronic depression he feels is due to feeling helpless about getting control over those factors. Those are the issues he needs to work on with a therapist.

That's where he gets a feeling of control and power--from all of the "philosophical arguments". But he's also told us that putting forth such intellectualized arguments, rather than focusing on his very real emotional difficulties and self-defeating attitudes, helped him to stymie his past therapists who were trying to help him. So, he was able to control his therapy, by bombarding the therapists with the sort of over-intellectualized bullshit he's put forth in this thread, but the net result was self-defeating--the therapists couldn't help him, because they couldn't get through his defensive maneuvers, and they just gave up. And that's exactly what's going on in this thread, people get tired of trying to get through to him--he'd rather hang on to those crazy sorts of arguments than simply address all of that inadequacy, and anxiety, and rage, that's festering inside of him. Maybe he feels it will overwhelm him if he really connects with it, but it won't if he does it with the help of a therapist.

But he wouldn't let a therapist help him any more than he'll let anyone in this thread help him--his defenses are very strong. He needs to allow himself to really trust a therapist, enough so he can allow himself to feel vulnerable with the therapist, and then some emotional healing and re-learning will be possible for him, and he won't need all those self-defeating defenses that are negatively impacting his functioning.

I don't think he's helpless, or hopeless, at all, but I do think he needs professional help.

I also think that most of his posts in this thread have been drunken rants. He admits he's drinking excessively, allegedly to relieve his "pain", but he's got to deal with that problem too--it's another way of trying to run from his problems rather than deal with them more directly, and it will only make his emotional state, particularly any depression, worse.

YOU PEOPLE ARE FUCKED UP!!!!

And that's me sober saying that!!!

Do you know how frustrating it is to be bombarded by multiple people who think 1) They're armchair psychologists who know everything, and 2) trying to organize thoughts about things you'd like to reply to, when people have said so many things that I could never have enough time to address them all???

I have other things I do with my day besides sitting on this forum. I've never posted anywhere else on this site other than this thread. I tried it because people here seemed smart and I wanted some feedback, not to be attacked. I need to get a life?? You people need to get off your computers and do something else with your time!

I'm going to try to address some comments, but I don't have time tonight to address everything.

The reason my question was "I'm 100% convinced that what I want in life is unattainable. How does one continue life in the face of this?" is because I'm trying to seek help! I've been so unhappy that I've been considering suicide. I don't want to die. I want pain to end! If death is the only thing that will end it, so be it. But I'm trying everything else before it comes to that.

Firefly, you don't know a damn thing about me other than what I've put in this post which is centered on only one aspect of my life. I do not have a personality disorder. I'm severely depressed. Because of women.

First of all the procreation stuff is proof how women have unfair advantages over men in the grand scheme of things. That's what I was pointing out with that.

I most certainly don't just want a woman to "supply a uterus and an egg". **** off! Do you have any idea how much I loved Mary Poppins??? How much time I spent with her? We were friends for an entire year before anything happened. We got to know each other very intimately. She was my best friend! I told her things I've never told anyone about me. I know her whole life story. If we had gotten married and for some medical reason or whatever we couldn't have kids, I still would've been happy because I was with someone I loved very deeply, someone who was my friend. Someone who had the same sense of humor as me, someone who made me feel passionate. I'd never in my life fallen in love with one of my friends before. It was intense, it made happy. Truly happy. I started doing things I hadn't done in years, like taking care of myself. Writing again.

You asked me about sex. Sex really has nothing to do with love or even really success in relationships but I'll say a bit.

I'm average. I have an average sized penis and I'm average in bed. Sometimes I suck, sometimes I'm really good. Mostly I'm average.

I'll tell you about both the first and last time Mary Poppins and I had sexual relations because I think it further proves my points. I apologize for the graphic language, but it's important to understanding why these two times were significant.

The first time we did anything sexual was the day we moved into our apartment. She gave me a handjob in the kitchen. Afterwards I just wanted to clean myself up, but she said 'Mike, we just had a moment". She wanted to cuddle on the couch. This was while I was still hesitant about letting myself become attached to her. While we were cuddling she told me she was excited because she was imagining all the things we'd be doing together in the coming months (social stuff, ect.). She had tears in her eyes and said "I really love you Mike. I hope you'll let me love you".

Fast forward several months. The day before the last time we fooled around Mary and I had had about as awesome of a day together as we'd ever had. We took the dog to the park, watched cartoons together and made inappropriate jokes about them, cooked dinner, played ping pong (I won). It was a great day. The next night she had plans to go to see a local band play with one of her friends. She was sitting on the couch watching TV. I came over and unzipped her pants.

She said "What are you doing Mr?"

I said "Nothing, I just want to kiss you goodbye before you go out."

I pulled her panties down and used my tongue on her a bit, to which I received several very enthusiastic moans. I then pulled her panties back up and said "You need to get going missy. You have plans." with a teasing smile.

She said "No I don't, I don't have plans, I don't care." In a breathy, lustful tone.

I said, "Yes you do. You better get going, you're gonna be late."

She then put her hand down my pants and said "NO, I don't! I don't have anywhere to go!" She then led me into her bedroom, the entire time not taking her hand off of my member.

When we got to the bed I said "You should sit on my face!"

She said "I've never done that before!"

I said "I want you too grind your pussy in my mouth."

She said "OK, but you should get it started first."

I went down on her. I'm not trying to blow my own horn but I've never done that thing, in that way, with that much enthusiasm to a woman before in my life. At one point I had to stop because I needed to gasp for air and my mouth was cramping up. She yelled out "Don't stop!" and shoved my face back into her crotch. She eventually squirted all over my mouth (yes she's a squirter) while digging her nails into the back of my head.

When it was over, with a flushed look on her face she told me that no one had ever made her orgasm by going down on her before, and was very enthusiastic about it. My response was just "I love you baby, I love you so much."

I layed next to her and kissed her, holding her close. She said "Will you be mad if I run? I'm gonna be late."

I said "Can we just cuddle for five minutes? I just want to enjoy being here with you." She said no and got up and started getting dressed.

I said 'What the ****? You're acting like a guy!"

She said "You're acting like a girl!" and left. Later that night I sent her a text that just said "I'm really glad I took a chance with my best friend, because I really love you Mary. I wish I could find the prettiest star in the sky tonight and name it Mary."

Cheesy right? I know, but I was head over heals for this girl! I never thought in a million years I could be with someone I both liked as a person AND lusted after too. She didn't text me back.

When she got back later that night she said "I'm sorry I don't text you back sometimes. I just don't know what to say to that."

Two days later she told me she was moving out.

Do you see?? When she was unsure if I loved her or not, she wanted the cuddling, the closeness. When she knew I was hopelessly in love with her, she used me as nothing more than a glorified dildo! A **** buddy. She wanted the hard-to-get, mind game bullshit! When she knew I loved her, it wasn't fun anymore.

No one in this thread has once said "Michael, what Mary Poppins did was wrong. It's not right to use people!"

I'm certainly not perfect. I have LOTS to work on, but using people isn't right.

Firefly, you never did respond to "Women are more emotionally mature... I guess that's why they use men?? I'm trying to understand."Trouble is, that 10 year age difference is a whopping difference (10 years is almost half of her life) and then you seem surprised when those younger women act their age. "

The guy Mary Poppins ran off with is older than me!!!! And I'm sure money had nothing to do with that at all!!

I'm sure "she acts her age" to him too, but then it's nice to live a comfortable life now isn't it?

One thing I've gotten out of this thread is that it's perfectly OK for women to use men however they want, and that if men object to that they're "emotionally immature." Why the **** do women have cart blanche to use men for their own desires with no negative social consequences??

You tell me I'm not ready for kids, how about all those sluts out there that have kids just because they're good looking enough for people to want to **** them??? How about that??? Mary Poppins had an abortion at 16! How about keeping your legs closed ladies? How about that???

I know that there are plenty of average people out their who find other average people to procreate with! I don't want average! I've had better! I know what it's like to be with someone who makes me feel passion! I won't settle for less! I want a woman who's smart, funny, good looking, passionate, artistic (Mary Poppins was an AWESOME visual artist and she inspired me to revisit my own artistic realms), sweet, ect. Settling for less after I've had that isn't acceptable.

Why is it that it's always the good looking women who do such selfish, heartless things??? Could it have something to do with them feeling entitled to do whatever the **** they want because society allows them to do so??? Could it have something to do with what I said before about how human nature is all about "What can we get away with?" instead of "What's the right thing to do?".

In the middle east and other places women must be covered up completely because other wise their beauty would give them ridiculously unfair power in society. Am I still so warped in my views??? It appears that a LARGE part of earth's population agrees with me.

At one point people TRULY believed the earth was flat. Why then do I face so much persecution for pointing out glaring facts in life?

Well, on a positive note, you've managed to work out you can't write porn.

You say you are seeking help - but I have suspicions that you are just making noises, and looking for ways to strengthen your victimhood. Anyone truly seeking help would have :
- tried to understand the views being expressed, and
- tried the suggestions, and
- made a committment towards making themselves better.

If you were truly seeking help, and fell down, or temporarily failed, then you would be seeking reassurance and help to continue...but you do none of these.

So what do you really want?

That is a lie. You are severely depressed because of your own mind...and the beliefs and attitudes in there that lead to you being depressed were put there by you, and/or are allowed to exist there by you.

Others, women included, can contribute & influence...but not one of them exerts mind control over you. You control yourself. You are responsible for yourself.

Why then would you expect women to settle for less?

And let's face it, emotionally, you are a wreck. Mentally, you are a wreck. Financially you are a wreck. And yet all of this is within your power to remedy. It is within your power to make yourself 'more'.

Repeating myself - why would any woman want to be with a man that hates them?

Personally - there has been a great deal of good advice given here, but you don't appear interested in actually making changes. If you were, you would have started, and you would persist.

As you actually do have enough information in this thread to start fixing yourself, there is little more to say to you...for you must actually want change in your life, and you must actually take responsibility for it.

Currently you are a victim of no one but yourself...and you can release that, and start to gain power in your life.

It's up to you.

Yep, porn is so well written...

It's like Shakespeare and ****...

Have you ever actually had sex with another human being...?

I can see why your girlfriend left you.

probably not, according to you

i've only had sex with women

Women are not your problem.

You have very obvious personality problems.

Didn't you learn anything about yourself, at all, from your previous experiences in therapy?

If this is you sober, you're in even worse shape than I thought.

Get yourself professional help.

I could be the exact same person I am right now, same personality. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I guarantee I could find a beautiful woman to love me. Even with any personal problems, 'personality disorders', emotional problems, ect. firmly intact.

That's sad.

Women are sad.

Not all women are sad. I would even think some men are attracted to money just are some women. But the generalisation that all women are sad because they are attracted to money is a false one. If I won the lottery I am sure that certain men and women would want to hang around me just because of my winnings. Sometimes I wonder if I would keep my integrity intact and find those who really appreciate who I am even without money or status. Of course it's all speculation untill you actually win the lottery, but I'm betting that most would say they wouldn't trade in their self respect for phony friends or lovers even if they were the richest person alive.

Your money might be able to attract a woman, but money can't get her to love you. Gold-diggers are easy to find--and they can be men as well as women. Wealthy women have men after them for their money, or men who find them attractive because they have money.

Why is it sad that a woman might be attracted to your money, but it's not sad that you'd be attracted to her beauty ? Both you and that woman would be equally superficial. Neither money nor beauty have anything to do with personality or character, or the quality of a relationship between two people, or what makes one person love another.
Just being able to initially attract someone, because having beauty or money might make that a little easier to do, doesn't mean that those relationships are going to work out, or last, or are even good relationships.

Your understanding of relationships is nil.

Women are not your problem.

You have personality problems, and you should go back into therapy.

Well that about sums up your predicament, doesn't it Michael?
It is all the fault of women. They are evil. Or in your case, one evil woman has ruined your life!
Oh you poor thing!
For a while there I took your posts seriously (I've read the whole thread), but after the (really bad! ) "porno" post, well ... it seemed you were rather enjoying all the attention, not so much concerned about much else, really.
I'll be really interested to see how long you can stretch this melodrama out.

On the credit side, vikorr & firefly have provided some excellent, thoughtful, & very constructive advice to anyone who might be going through some very rough patches in their life.
I applaud you both, for your wisdom & for your patience, too.