Question

I think there's a middle ground though.

Broach subject -- get a negative reaction -- back off. (Friendship stays about the same, for good or ill.)

Broach subject -- get a positive reaction -- keep going. (Friendship turns to romance.)


As opposed to:

Ask outright -- get a negative reaction -- AWKWARD. (Friendship might not recover.)


If this was a girl he saw walking by at noon every day and he'd never worked up the nerve to talk to her, the Gretzky line totally fits.

But they already have a pretty strong friendship, so more is at stake if she's not interested in him romantically.

I agree - there was so much of a good response on how to handle the approach - I just wanted something to push the guy a little. Nothing ventured, nothing gained sort of thing.

Be respectful in the sense that if she says no, you still want to maintain a friendship - I thought most of what was written was thoughtful and about as good as you could handle.

By the way, the reason I posted about the pickup artist stuff is that it gives some understanding of why (some) girls are attracted to jerks.

Forget Potter, it sounds like you've got a thing for Terry Pratchett. You are among friends

Exactly...

@Linkat: thanks for the motivation

@Drewdad: It would explain a lot...

@roger: I don't like Pratchett, I LOVE Pratchett

I can give the basic breakdown here:

1. Humans are social creatures, and hierarchical creatures. They compare their own social status to that of others, based on a variety of indicators.
2. Humans want their mates to be of high social value. Preferably higher social value than themselves.


That being said, there are ways that people telegraph their social value. Healthy people are more desirable as mates than unhealthy people. Clothing and other outward signs of wealth increase the perception of value. Etc.

Now, the problem is that when men are jerks the signal is misinterpreted. Being a jerk actually lowers one's value as a mate, which is why the girls eventually break up with these guys. BUT, acting like a jerk gives the perception of high social value.

The process (I won't dignify it as a thought process) goes like this: If this guy were of low social value, he would be pursuing me. Since he is not willing to exert the effort to be nice to me he must be of high social value.

This illusion/perception of higher social value is why these guys are seen as potentially good mates. Eventually, the illusion fades, but since the process is not a conscious process, the girl ends up falling into the same trap over and over again.

DrewDad



Actually, I know of a couple of guys on my old Forum that were so into his books and theory. They were such confident young men, would never use a woman, but had the confidence, charisma to charm any women, and mean it, one used to always call me kitten? I still know one of them today, very grounded and great young man.

If it was me, I would read that book, I'd also start as someone else stated, practicing on how to be assertive, date and start flirting with alot of girls in a kidding way. Let this "friend" A see that you are now popular with the girls not just in an academic way but always give her that little bit more attention.. What's a couple of months "studying" about women going to kill you in wait before you approach.. Maybe you won't need to, maybe she will see the difference in you and see the other side of you...

Yes, when you put it like that it seems quite logical. Food for thought, certainly.

@Found Soul: The point I haven't stressed is that there are other girls who are interested in dating me, and I'm perfectly confident around them, its just her I get shy dealing with...

Sam - you said:
"Maybe I should hold off and try to see if I can guage her feelings before making a move"

Now tell me - after what you know about this girl, do you think she would respond to that kind of approach?

Take the "jerk" factor out of those guys she is attracted to and you will discover what the charm is.

You are just not paying attention.IMHO.

This is good.

I read where you were confident in helping other girls with homework and therefore friendships, but if they also want to date you, but it's this girl that you are interested in, then I like Punkey's last reply to you...

Well, let's see: her exes are all abusive, alcoholic, ugly, violent, unfaithful and untruthful. Looks like I have a LOT of work to do to compete with them

You sure you don't want to just save this woman?

'Cause that tends to be a lousy foundation for a relationship.

Oh, and drop the ugly out of that statement. It's a value judgment. Now, what are the facts?

Which seems to reveal a truth: Vice pays more in gross by far than net, and virtue does not pay at all but it is less work...

The bad guy, the girls always seem to like and not the good guy.

Therefore, it becomes a challenge? Don't go changing and become one of them.

Eventually women detest the bad guy and learn to respect themselves more...

I play in a hardcore/emocore band, we have a song called 'The Wages of Sin is Sex'

so yes, I'm with you on that one

I agree... I would NEVER try to alter an aspect of who I am unless it was something damaging/destructive

You sure you are not my Nephew? Both play in a hardcore band, at 20 and 21 and seem to have smarts as well

I do not want to 'save' her, now THAT is a "value judgement"

I feel she's out of my league. I just also happen to feel that she's WAY out of the other guys' leagues.

I live in a city with a large deprived underclass. Both A and I come from our country's capital, with a larger underclass (although we did not know each other then...). She lives in a small rural town about 25 minutes drive from here, and attends college here. We have a reasonable vibrant nightlife, albeit one that revolves around drinking, dressing like sluts/thugs and all the usual pursuits of the mainstream without any of the underground alternatives

She always dates/goes after guys who everyone else agrees are ugly, violent scumbags who tend to subsequently cheat on her. This is not me making a value judgement, this is society making on on the basis of a mountain of evidence

I love her. Simple as. Doesn't matter what mistakes she makes, I've always been there for her and always will be there.

Not unless you're alcoholic, unemployed and from Ireland

Hell, you'd make a better aunt than my real one...

I'm glad you didn't call me Mum

I have a girlfriend 21, yep I kind of pick up all sorts of friends with ranges in ages, who lives in Ireland:)

It's good that you don't judge (A). I suspect she's got a wild streak in her but also a bit of low self esteme...