15
   

Trapped in the Friend Zone...I think.

 
 
dap0515
 
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 01:34 pm
Seven years ago, I met a girl over internet. We live over 2,500 miles apart. We spent a lot of time instant messaging one another, and soon later, calling each other by phone. We'd talk daily, sometimes every few hours. I would feel empty if I didn't hear from her for even just one day. We'd also send text messages, e-mails, even the occasional post card or gift if one of us traveled somewhere.

Online, she would tell me she liked me. She would get jealous if I mentioned other girls. She would encourage me to break up with anyone I dated. She would ask me if I thought there was something wrong with her. I interpreted this as her being romantically interested in me. This excited me and I fell for her.

Our first meeting in person proved disastrous. We both felt uncomfortable. I was as awkward and stiff as I've probably ever been in my life. We didn't know what to say to each other. Without my even attempting to make an advance, she told me, "We're not making out." She conjured up an excuse to extricate herself early from the outing. "I have to feed my dog!" she told me.

I felt devastated. I could hardly sleep. I had no appetite. I felt completely dejected. When we resumed talking online about a week later (which seemed like an eternity to me), she bluntly explained that she did not find me physically attractive. She said, "You're a good guy, but I'm not interested, sorry. I was excited to meet you. It just didn't work out."

She became intimately involved with another guy at around this time and she would tell me every detail of their sexual escapades together. It hurt me very deeply to hear about everything she was doing to him. It incensed me all the more when I saw a picture of him. While I don't claim to be an adonis, I can confidently say I am more attractive than this guy. He didn't seem to treat her nearly as well as I did either. He clearly used her for booty calls. When she finally realized this and lost hope in salvaging him as a boyfriend, she ceased all contact with him.

Over time, we grew closer again, despite her stated desire to only be friends. I had tried a couple times to withdraw from her completely but the separation anxiety was too much for me to bear. If I stayed quiet for too long, she'd text me, call me, and find some way to cheer me up. We had frank discussions about my feelings, her feelings, friendship versus romance. These talks often resulted in her becoming argumentative, uncomfortable and distant. She would claim that sometimes she liked me romantically but only as a companion without anything physical.

At about this point, I made the conscious decision to treat her with indifference. I stopped initiating conversations with her. I stopped giving her compliments. I stopped asking questions about her life. If she talked to me, I'd be succinct in my responses. I'd talk about my interest in other girls to make it seem as though I didn't care about her anymore. I told her about a friend I had who lived near her who could set her up with a guy. She angrily replied, "Look, I get it, you don't want me. Whatever. Past is the past."

After several months of this behavior, she started to show the insecurities that I had once displayed. She asked me if I liked her anymore. She asked me if I found her attractive. She tried to make me compare her to other girls. She wanted me to rate her with a number. She sent me nude pictures of herself. She periodically asked if I wanted "another chance." She apologized for how she treated me when we met in person, claimed she didn't really mean everything she said, and told me she was over looks now anyway. She said chemistry would probably develop over time once we got more comfortable in one another's presence. When I asked her to pick a girl for me among the ones I had discussed with her, she said, "I'd recommend you go for me, but we both know you don't want that anymore." She frequently fished for some kind of validation from me that I harbored romantic interest. She would accuse me of considering her irrelevant. "Tell your friends not to talk about me. I'm irrelevant to you. I don't matter. But don't worry, I'll get over it." She seemed genuinely depressed. Sometimes when I would refuse to offer any kind of reassurance, she would close the conversation by saying, "Okay, well good luck with everything. Have a nice life." Then she'd sign on again a couple hours later or the next day and the same situation would repeat itself. Nude pictures aside, this paragraph described our situation for about a year.

Four months ago, my family moved to a town only 100 miles from where she lives. Encouraged by her renewed interest, I accepted her invitation to meet up for a movie. This encounter went much better than our first one of a couple years earlier. We talked normally, we didn't seem overly awkward with one another, there was a lot of mutual smiling, some friendly back and forth touching of the arms and hands. When the outing was over and we went our separate ways, she texted me almost immediately to see if I had a good time. Over the next two weeks, she arranged to see me three more times. Sometimes our conversations would hit lulls, but overall I thought we did fine. She'd send me a text message afterwards apologizing for being too boring. I would assure her that I did not find her boring and that I enjoyed myself.

Everything seemed to be going relatively well until she abruptly canceled an all-day outing with me that she herself had arranged. She made all kinds of excuses for the cancellation, first complaining about the weather (it was fine), her dog, family issues, etc. I prodded her to just open up and tell me the real problem. She said an acquaintance of mine encouraged her to kiss me, as a way to solidify my interest before returning to where I live. She explained that she hadn't contemplated kissing me and that the thought of it made her feel awkward and pressured.

All those feelings of disappointment and sadness rushed back to me, and I lost my ability to feign indifference. I asked her if I'd really be that gross to kiss. I wanted to know why it would be such a big deal that she would cancel a fun outing over something I didn't even bring up. She replied that it wouldn't be gross, she just doesn't want to do it. She said she didn't want a relationship with anyone and that it would ruin our friendship, which she considered more important. I assured her it would not ruin anything from my perspective and that no one was talking about relationships. I reminded her of what she had repeatedly assured me about being over looks and wanting me to consider her as a girlfriend. She said that she no longer liked me and had stopped liking me a week earlier. She claimed to have been joking about asking me to consider her as a girlfriend.

I asked her what changed between someone else's mention of a kiss and a week earlier when she supposedly liked me. She said she didn't feel any chemistry and that we lacked spark. She said that as a general matter she doesn't even like being hugged. I told her it would be okay to admit if this was really about looks. She reiterated her claim that it had nothing to do with looks. I told her it was cruel to be leading me on for this long, especially after what had happened the first time we met. She denied leading me on, saying that anything I construed as flirtation was her kidding around. I told her I didn't want to hook up with her and that she should relax. She simply said "okay."

She offered to meet up with me later that day but just at the mall for a lunch. I accepted. We got along decently, engaging in some polite small talk, although there was definitely some underlying tension. She offered her straw for some sips of her drink, which I found a bit odd for someone apparently disgusted by the thought of sharing saliva, but I made no comment about it.

When we were about to leave, she brought up the relationship issue. "Are we good now?" she asked. "Do you want to be friends?" Still hurt by the exchange from earlier, I told her I wasn't sure and I inquired on some of the same questions as before. Even though I only asked about kissing, she kept repeating, "I don't want a relationship, get over it." I asked for clarification on whether it was a relationship with me she didn't want, or a relationship in general. She said both. I asked if she was saying she didn't want them now, or would never want them. She said it was unfair to me that she's a "yo-yo" with her emotions and therefore the answer is never. Then she asked me again if we're still friends. When I refused to give a straight answer, she stormed off.

A couple weeks went by and we didn't talk to each other. Unable to go so long without an update from her, I sent a voluminous e-mail, once again detailing my grievances with her, and seeking resolution of some kind. I foolishly tried to persuade her with logical arguments about our potential as a romantic couple, reminding her that she prompted some of those discussions with both her words and behavior. She quickly replied to my e-mail by asking me to call her.

On the phone, we got into yet another argument about the same issues. She said she doesn't like me because I annoy her. She said she doesn't want to kiss me, she doesn't want to hook up with me, she doesn't want a relationship with me, and that although she doesn't currently want those things with anyone else either, she'll never ever want them with me. She theorized that maybe she never liked me in the past either, and that when she thought she liked me romantically, she merely craved my attention. She asked me to leave her alone. I hung up without saying goodbye.

A couple weeks passed without any contact. One day she randomly instant messaged me, acting like nothing had happened. She asked me for advice on clothes to buy. She discussed her favorite TV show with me. We had a decent normal conversation. She talked about getting together again when I visit my family that lives near her. Then she asked if I'm satisfied about "you know what." I told her the truth that it still bothers me. She said, "You have plenty of girls anyway. You'll be fine." We started to get into yet another fight, but I defused it quickly because her dad recently passed away, and I didn't think it appropriate to argue about my comparatively petty insecurities when she's dealing with the tragic loss of a parent. She recently told me I'm doing a fine job of pushing her away.

****

This brings me to the present. I don't know how to proceed. I don't even completely understand why I care so much about this girl and why I get so jealous whenever I worry that someone else will swoop in and get her. She's not physically attractive. She's not a nice person. She's not particularly intelligent or well-versed in any of my areas of interest. Yet I feel a rush of excitement when she contacts me, I love talking to her, I feel empty when she's absent from my life, and I can't get over the disappointment of not being good enough for her physically and/or romantically.

I don't want to kiss her because I'm attracted to her. I want to kiss her because I feel I deserve to after having invested so much time and effort (seven years and counting) into building whatever it is that we have together. I'm not sure I like what that says about me as a person, but it's the truth. I would feel like an utter failure if I couldn't even experience just one real kiss with her. Maybe if I got that out of the way, I'd no longer be as infatuated. Or perhaps the opposite would be true. I don't know. What I do know is I wish I could explore the possibilities of dating her. The status quo is unacceptable to me. I hate wondering about could have beens. And talking about this with her gets me nowhere. It makes things significantly worse. She liked me the most when I pretended not to care about her.

While I would normally be inclined to believe someone when she says she's not interested in me (and I've heard that more times than I care to remember from this girl), there are several reasons why I'm not completely convinced that she's telling me the truth:

1. The 1+ year of my feigned indifference where she flat out said she liked me romantically, where she asked me to go for her as a girlfriend, where she got depressed thinking I didn't like her, where she constantly sought out reassurance of my interest and attraction to her, where she got jealous of other girls I mentioned and invariably put them down, when she'd often say, "I know you don't like me, but whatever, that's my problem, past is the past," etc.

2. Our in-person chemistry the second and third times we went out together. She seemed genuinely giddy and excited for the next opportunity to see me.

3. Separation anxiety. No matter how much we fight, no matter how bad things get, no matter how much we hurt each other, one of us reaches out to the other within a couple weeks, and more often, within a couple days. Usually she'll be the one to send me a text message shortly after a fight asking, "So are we over?"

4. She admits to not being upfront about her feelings and not liking to communicate her innermost thoughts. She says she's a private person who doesn't like to confide in people.

5. She calls herself an emotional yo-yo. She said she falls for people easily and just as easily loses interest in them. She claims to be hypersensitive and to also have anger management problems.

6. She sometimes retracts her own statements, saying she uttered them only to get herself out of an uncomfortable situation not because she really meant them. It takes her months to admit this sometimes.

7. She confesses she's afraid of failure in relationships. She doesn't like to try something important to her if she thinks it's more likely than not to fail.

On the other hand, she's been painfully consistent about one thing: not wanting a physical relationship with me. She's occasionally said I'm good looking, but I've never gotten the sense that she lusted for me, or wanted anything sexual. Only in her head is a romantic relationship somehow compatible with zero physical intimacy. “I never thought about it,” she says. And though she claims not to be a sexual person with anyone and never seeks it out, she has had sexual encounters with others and says she loves kissing...just not with me, evidently. "We don't have that kind of relationship" she'll often say.

So I don't know what to think. The lack of physical interest points toward my permanently being in the friend zone, but she seems attached to me as more than a friend, and I can't figure out why she'd care so much about me liking her romantically if she didn't like me romantically. I'm really not exaggerating the depths of her depression during the time period in which she thought I had lost all romantic and physical interest in her.

Right now, I'm thinking I should return to acting as though I don't care about her. Interrogating one another about our feelings and debating their logical soundness never works. It always exacerbates the tension. Treating her as though she doesn't matter to me reels her back. It gives me the upperhand I never should have relinquished.

I appreciate all and any input, positive or negative, and apologize in advance for the length of this post. As you can tell, I'm stressed out.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 15 • Views: 5,346 • Replies: 53

 
sozobe
 
  6  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 02:01 pm
@dap0515,
dap0515 wrote:
This brings me to the present. I don't know how to proceed.


Move on.

Chemistry between two people is not as simple as looks. Attraction is not rational, and it can't be forced or argued into existence.

You might be smokin' hot, but if she's not attracted, she's not attracted.

I don't think it's a "friend zone" thing -- I think she was ready to be physically attracted and was a little surprised when she wasn't.

It's a definite pitfall of developing relationships online rather than in person.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 02:14 pm
@sozobe,
Well said and I have nothing to add except that in about six months he'll realize he escaped what could have been disaster.

Joe( I have to go feed my dog...... right.)Nation
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  4  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 02:32 pm
@dap0515,
I was beginning to wonder if your post would ever end.

This is simple. She seems to have made it plain that she is interested only in being friends. So be friends. Go out and start dating other girls. When you do talk to her, don't talk about your other relationships and if she starts talking about other guys, change the topic. Let it go. Go looking for that someone who is out there looking for you, if you know what I mean.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 02:40 pm
Oh, I forgot to mention.
....
A woman who talks to a man
she is not having sex with
about the men
the woman is having sex with
thinks she is talking
to her best girlfriend.

Joe(and she is)Nation
0 Replies
 
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 02:40 pm
@sozobe,
Soz, thanks for the advice. What should I make of the year she spent trying to persuade me I should like her and target her as a girlfriend? That happened after the "I need to go feed my dog" incident.

What do you make of all the wavering and mixed signals? Does she try to talk herself into liking me and just can't do it once we're actually together? Why does withdrawing from her make her more interested in me "romantically" (whatever that means to her, doesn't seem to be physical) while talking openly about intimacy leads to anger, distance, and rejection?

While trying to move on emotionally from her, should I still visit her in person and see if the physical chemistry develops? We really did improve with one another from the first time to the second and subsequent outings, but evidently not enough to make me kissable. Maybe a fifth and sixth time would yield the desired result?

Should I take her words at face value or interpret them as fear (the rejections being born out of a fear of feeling pressured, the suggestions of interest being born out of a fear of losing contact with me)?
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:11 pm
@CoastalRat,
It would seem that way to me too, except she has also at times told me to aim for her as a girlfriend and she's acted genuinely depressed when she thought that I no longer had romantic feelings for her. She'd ask me if I wanted another chance, but it seemed more like she wanted the other chance. Then I gave it to her and we were soon right back where we started with the lack of physical interest on her end.

I've been rejected by plenty of girls and only one other time has it hit me as hard as with this one. I don't think I even want a relationship with this girl. I know she's not right for me. I know I wouldn't want to present her as my girlfriend or wife in public or to my family. Nor do I particularly lust for her. She's moderately overweight with plain features. I am drawn by her cute idiosyncracies and I do like being the male center of her attention.

Ultimately, my frustration is that I can't stand the thought of not being good enough for her, especially in comparison to the guys she's been with in the past. It makes me feel small and inferior. I also feel a sense of entitlement to her because of all the time, energy, effort, and emotional stress I've invested into connecting with her. If I can't even get a kiss out of all this, I feel worthless.

I know that's wrong. I know that's superficial. But it's how I feel.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:14 pm
@dap0515,
dap..

I see two lonely people that are bad for each other's self esteme and both have self esteme issues.

When you become the "bad boy" she comes running, when you go back to being you, she goes awall. And, with you, you are trying to analyse her and pretty much keep sitting on that fence in hope, instead of just getting on with your life.

The Internet allows you to be free, be yourself, there is little awkwardness.. And, you can discuss pretty much anything.. If you can not take that, and bring it into the "real world" then it was and always will be, you both needing desperately someone in your lives and it is a bit like fantasy, as you dream your dreams but reality says, she doesn't find you attractive, not just to look at but it just didn't totally all gel together any time really, that you met up. Both I believe wanted it to, but it didn't.

She's also not good for you at all. Sending you so many mixed messages, confessing she is like a yoyo and sending you nude photos, off course she is going to be on your mind constantly...

She's like a fishing rod. She reels you in and then she sends you back out again.

Stand up and be a man and just go, yeah, na.. I deserve better and go out and find a real woman who likes you for all that you are.

Realise this was more of an internet thing - of lonliness to what you really want out of life, and that is someone to call your own...

Get back into that dating scene and cut her off.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:21 pm
@dap0515,
Quote:
What should I make of the year she spent trying to persuade me I should like her and target her as a girlfriend?

You should take that as you look good on paper. When she doesn't actually see you she is thinking "this guy is great." When she sees you in person it doesn't click. She doesn't know why, you don't know why, it's not a slam on you but it seems to be a fact. Time to find a girl who's into all of you.
0 Replies
 
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:35 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Thanks for the reply, Found Soul. Your post really does make a lot of sense.

On the chemistry aspect, I'm frustrated that she leaps to compatibility conclusions so prematurely. Each time we've gone out together in person has usually been more comfortable and natural than the previous encounter. Plus she's the one who arranges most of these outings.

When my parents moved to within 100 miles of where she lives, thereby making it much easier for me to visit her with greater frequency, I took it as a sign from above that I was meant to explore a relationship with her further.

But we rarely ever make any progress. The nature of our relationship has been cyclical. We go out, she rejects me, we fight, she disclaims interest, we make up, I ignore her and pretend not to care about her, she gets depressed and acts like she wants me as more than a friend, I warm up to her again, we go out, she rejects me, and the cycle begins anew. On and on it goes.

I wish I were strong enough to let go of her completely, yet four things dissuade me from doing so:

1. I'm attached to her. I get anxious when I don't hear from her, even if it's something negative. Anything is better than nothing.

2. I'm constantly analyzing every little detail in my head and there's enough doubt and mixed signals on her part to make me question whether physical intimacy is truly hopeless.

3. My goal isn't necessarily a relationship. I might be satisfied with a single hookup for self-esteem purposes, which could conceivably happen as long as we continue to go out over time, and I catch her in the right moment.

4. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. So much can change from now until whenever we part our earthly existence. Is it really advisable to ever completely walk away from someone who doesn't pose a physical danger?

I hope it's possible for me to move on and focus on living my own life and dating other girls while simultaneously keeping this one on the periphery, just in case circumstances change to my liking.

And, in truth, I do go out and see other people. I also go out to bars three nights a week. I've slept with other girls since knowing this one. I just don't seem to ever connect with anybody on an emotional level as I do with her. We're so close, yet distant at the same time.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:44 pm
@dap0515,
Oh the games people play. She's a game player - unintentionally perhaps. Find someone else and move on.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:53 pm
@dap0515,
Quote:
On the chemistry aspect, I'm frustrated that she leaps to compatibility conclusions so prematurely. Each time we've gone out together in person has usually been more comfortable and natural than the previous encounter. Plus she's the one who arranges most of these outings.


Do you really know what you want? It's like you don't like the rejection and want to prove a point... She has done the exact same thing back at you, until it gets too close and then she claims she lied, or didn't lie, just was flirting, joking.


Quote:
When my parents moved to within 100 miles of where she lives, thereby making it much easier for me to visit her with greater frequency, I took it as a sign from above that I was meant to explore a relationship with her further.


A wish.. .But that did not happen.


Quote:
But we rarely ever make any progress. The nature of our relationship has been cyclical. We go out, she rejects me, we fight, she disclaims interest, we make up, I ignore her and pretend not to care about her, she gets depressed and acts like she wants me as more than a friend, I warm up to her again, we go out, she rejects me, and the cycle begins anew. On and on it goes.



Like I said, this is all a game... She doesn't like rejection, nor do you.. You become the bad boy and she wants to try, you go back to being you and she's not interested...

Quote:
I wish I were strong enough to let go of her completely, yet four things dissuade me from doing so:

1. I'm attached to her. I get anxious when I don't hear from her, even if it's something negative. Anything is better than nothing

2. I'm constantly analyzing every little detail in my head and there's enough doubt and mixed signals on her part to make me question whether physical intimacy is truly hopeless.

3. My goal isn't necessarily a relationship. I might be satisfied with a single hookup for self-esteem purposes, which could conceivably happen as long as we continue to go out over time, and I catch her in the right moment.

4. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. So much can change from now until whenever we part our earthly existence. Is it really advisable to ever completely walk away from someone who doesn't pose a physical danger?


I hope it's possible for me to move on and focus on living my own life and dating other girls while simultaneously keeping this one on the periphery, just in case circumstances change to my liking.


This really is very simple. You want sex. You want to win. This is about rejection, and winning.. Like you said, a single hookup is all it needs to satisfy all these questionables...

Then there is this... What is meant to be will be, doesn't matter if you are not with her at all... You can not change what is meant to be, nor can you make something happen that is not meant to be.



Quote:
And, in truth, I do go out and see other people. I also go out to bars three nights a week. I've slept with other girls since knowing this one. I just don't seem to ever connect with anybody on an emotional level as I do with her. We're so close, yet distant at the same time.


See, just reading that confirms it.. It's a challenge, a conquest for you... You refer to her as "this one". But, the second fold of this, is the conversations you two have... On an emotional level, you get on well.

So, my take is this. You two talk and you tell her that, on the emotional level and that, that puts you in the friends zone ... Then you tell her that you are great in bed, she'll never know though, although she should have just tried that one night for the hell of it and you cease the conversation.

You never know.. She may ponder on that. But, ask yourself, if that did occur, seriously, would the challenge then be over? Would you then be able to just be that friend to her? Or would you then totally let go.
mismi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 03:55 pm
@Ragman,
yep....sounds like she enjoys being flattered by your attention, doesn't want you to like anyone else but her, wants you as her exclusive "friend". She is using you. That is a reflection on her and certainly not on you.

She sounds needy and selfish. Cut her loose, man.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 04:12 pm
It sounds like you have a really great text/email relationship, but then reality gets in the way when you meet in person.

If this is good enough for you, keep it up. It sounds exciting for you.

If you want a real flesh and blood girl, don't start off thousands of miles away and then get frustrated because it doesn't work out in real life.

You have analyzed this to death. I think you know what to do.

She's a text-tease.

0 Replies
 
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 06:47 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Great points Found Soul, I'm finding your responses very helpful.

Quote:
Do you really know what you want? It's like you don't like the rejection and want to prove a point... She has done the exact same thing back at you, until it gets too close and then she claims she lied, or didn't lie, just was flirting, joking.


I'm not positive about what I want. I do know that I don't like being rejected by her, especially given my investments of time, money, effort and energy over the past seven years. Had she rejected me early, I could have moved on easily. Had there never been an emotional connection, I could have moved on easily. Had there been no waffling on whether she liked me romantically or not, I could have moved on easily. But there's so much history and pent up frustration that I don't want to lose. I'm like the inveterate gambler who keeps placing losing bets because once you're in $900, what's another $100?

I'm definitely attached to her. I hate being apart. I'm thrilled whenever she sends me a message, calls me, or wants to go out. I can talk to her forever without getting bored. That's one element.

Quote:
A wish.. .But that did not happen.


I haven't had a lot of opportunities. I've gone out with her a total of six times. The first one was disastrous. The second one was awkward. The other four took place over a span of six weeks during this past November-December. Then I went back to where I live and her father suddenly passed away shortly thereafter, which would understandably put a strain on anyone. I plan to visit my family again in April, which could present more chances to go out with her.

Quote:
This really is very simple. You want sex. You want to win. This is about rejection, and winning.. Like you said, a single hookup is all it needs to satisfy all these questionables...


It doesn't have to be sex. She's a virgin waiting until marriage, but one of those virgins who will do anything short of vaginal penetration, and has, with multiple people. The second time we ever met, not too long after the disastrous initial outing where she said she wasn't attracted to me, she agreed to provide sexual favors as "practice" for someone she wanted to date. She consented as long as there would be no kissing involved, and as long as I didn't touch her. It felt very detached and mechanical. I did not enjoy it nearly as much as I thought I would. I couldn't even "fire away." My other surprise was that this seemed to have no lasting effect on our relationship. Although she seemed disgusted with herself right afterwards, she texted me the next day as though nothing had happened. She still seemed affable.

Maybe it's not that I want sex with her, as much as real intimacy: kissing, cuddling, touching, etc. I want what she's given to other people she was attracted to, not a sterile imitation of it, which while technically well beyond a mere kiss, lacked any type of romance.

I'm honestly not sexually attracted to her. She's not pretty. She's overweight. She's not particularly stylish or distinctive in any way. But it bothers me that I'm not good enough for her physically while her objectively ugly (in body and personality) play-thing could sample just about anything he wanted. It kills my self-esteem knowing he was acceptable to her while I'm not, and until I get some, or all of what he did, I'm not sure I can overcome this nagging disappointment.

Quote:
You never know.. She may ponder on that. But, ask yourself, if that did occur, seriously, would the challenge then be over? Would you then be able to just be that friend to her? Or would you then totally let go.


I think I would still want her as a friend. Sometimes I get lonely and she's almost always available. Other times we really do have fun talking to each other. However, in the absence of getting intimate with her, I'll become very jealous again the next time she's with someone. I'm always worried about it. If she doesn't sign on by a certain hour at night, I panic that she's out with someone else. And I know I'm a hypocrite to act this way because I've been with other girls since knowing her. I don't even tell her about most of them either. But the other girls come and go, and she remains the one constant.
FOUND SOUL
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 07:24 pm
@dap0515,
Don't let your ego get in the way.. The one that states, I have given I expect..

Have you ever considered that she is not all together there? I am not being rude there but if she is let's say, over-weight, un-attractive, gives sexual favours but will not allow (anyone) and note that, notation, as therefore it is not you at all, is it, it's all men, to touch her, kiss her or hug her, she is disconnected from reality.. She states, claims to be a Virgin and wants to remain that way until marriage but she knows that unless she gives something up, no one will go near her and so, she uses that as her tool to find or be with a man..

The disconnection of no touching, means that she would freak if ever that did happen as she has no idea what that is all about, intimacy. And, the disconnection with no kissing, cuddling means maybe, she herself wasn't loved the way she should have been and she will not allow anyone to love her, so hense her, back, forth, back, forth.. This woman honestly, may be able to communicate but she does not know herself at all.

I don't think you can break through all of that, it's been 7 years and you haven't been able to.

You have only invested a "small" amount of money and time.. Someone like her probably needs a "real friend" if you want to do something good, consider that and all that we've said.

Imagine, your life with an ice - queen, who's only knowledge of intimacy is either going down on a man, or jerking him off, can't put it any other way.. and yes, that would feel mechanical..

This is a conquest:) One that really you should stay out of. To be fair to her as well as to yourself.

She's a Virgin and as I stated, probably, not quite able to think reality of what love and giving, and intimacy is all about.

You can't give her that, you aren't attracted to her, it's a conquest.. So leave her be.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 07:34 pm
@dap0515,
dap0515 wrote:
It kills my self-esteem knowing he was acceptable to her while I'm not, and until I get some, or all of what he did, I'm not sure I can overcome this nagging disappointment.


Yikes!

This only redoubles my advice to you to move on.

That's a deeply unhealthy reason to want to be with her.

It's sounding more and more to me like both of you are lonely and would like attention from the opposite sex, and are happy to get it -- while simultaneously not really liking each other that much.

More about status notches (he/she likes me more than her/him) and the dopamine rush of getting another food pellet I mean text message, than any actual personal connection, much less a sexual connection.

I'm not one to demonize internet relationships -- I know a lot of people who met that way, and it's worked out great for many. But for you, from what you've said here, I'd really recommend that you pursue relationships in your immediate, IRL sphere.

How old are you, btw?
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 08:12 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
I am not being rude there but if she is let's say, over-weight, un-attractive, gives sexual favours but will not allow (anyone) and note that, notation, as therefore it is not you at all, is it, it's all men, to touch her, kiss her or hug her
To clarify, she's kissed, made out, hugged, and cuddled with a few guys. She's told me she enjoys making out. But she says she can't do any of that with me. "We don't have that kind of relationship" is her usual explanation. "It's not how it used to be" is another. Sometimes it's "I don't want to risk our friendship. It would be too awkward. I'm not attracted to you that way." Then there's the mixed signal explanation of: "Why does it matter? You don't like me anyway." Yet she gave me a blowjob once and got over that very quickly. How would a kiss be worse? I don't understand it. I mope, I ignore her for awhile, I act detached and disinterested, I feign happiness with other people, then she starts getting jealous about other girls and panicking over whether I like her. She proposes going out somewhere. I've covered the cycle.
For the last year, she's claimed to not be interested in sexual activities with anyone at all. She said when a guy she and her friends hung out with merely tried to hug her she "nearly died." She definitely has issues with being touched, but there have been a small number of guys in the past able to pierce that barrier, one of them consistently and repeatedly until she realized he was only using her for his own sexual gratification. The other guys were all single episodes of kissing or fingering, and mostly over 3 years ago.
Quote:
How old are you, btw?
29.
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 08:42 pm
@dap0515,
You've stated very clearly that you don't find her attractive or desireable and even worthy of being publicly acknowledged as your 'girlfriend' to your friends and family, yet you expect her to want to have sex with you?

Have you considered the possibility that perhaps she's perceptive and intelligent enough to be conscious of the fact that you don't find her physically attractive or desireable? Maybe the fact that you'd find it embarrassing to publicly acknowledge that she's the object of your 'fancy' inhibits her ability to let herself go and offer herself up to you physically.

I don't know about you, but for me, I've always needed to feel that someone found me desireable as a basic requirement for me to feel comfortable having physical relations with that person. Being made to feel desireable would be my baseline - as would being deemed acceptable to be seen with that person in public and acknowledged as a partner to someone's family and friends.
And the fact that someone desires you physically, for me anyway, has always been an integral part of the aphrodisiac in the sexual equation. Why would I have sex with someone who didn't find me attractive? I can't imagine anything more more humiliating or debasing. If I thought someone found me 'plain', 'overweight' and physically unattractive, I'd have no desire to subject myself to their further scrutiny by having sex with that person.

It sounds like you're using her as some sort of guinea pig - as in, 'I don't really find her attractive, but I am bound and determined that she WILL find me attractive enough at least once to let me experience sex with her.'

And maybe she's just basically asexual. Some people are.
dap0515
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2012 08:47 pm
@dap0515,
Another aspect of her sexuality I forgot to mention is that during her skinnier years, she used to take nude pictures of herself and send them to practically anyone who asked for them, as long as they were random people from far away.

She also cybered on cam with at least two of these guys, getting naked, fingering herself, moaning, etc. She never even saw the two of them. For all she knows, they were 40+ yearolds posing as 20-somethings. I did IP checks on e-mails they sent to her and their stories didn't match up. The guys claimed not to have cell phones either when she wanted to call them. One of the guys eventually admitted that his "self-pictures" were fake, and sent a batch of some other guy's pictures that were supposedly the real ones. She forgave him and continued to talk to these guys until they got bored of her. While she was involved with the guy who sent the fake pictures, I barely existed. She was infatuated with him.

I only learned of all this because one of the guys she sent nude pictures to started to threaten her and she sought my advice on how to handle the situation. When I found out about the pictures and the cybering, she refused to show me any of her nudes for a very long time. She offered to barter some of them for gifts or other favors. I declined and got angry at such a suggestion. I resented her for sharing herself that way with practically everyone for free while treating me like a john who would have to buy the opportunity.

She explained that she didn't want me to see the pictures because she was afraid I might judge her, or think less of her for them. She said that she doesn't care about the opinions of strangers but that mine matter because I'm important to her. Therefore it would be better that I not see her in a sexual context. But then she randomly relented one day and sent me some of her nudes during one of those periods when I feigned indifference to her. She asked me what I thought and seemed very insecure about her private regions. I didn't say much in response.
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