Trapped in the Friend Zone...I think.

I haven't told her I'd be embarrassed presenting her to friends and family. In the past, I've stated the opposite, even though I didn't really mean it. I used to compliment her ad nauseum, including some of her physical features. I noticed that this had the unintended consequence of making her so confident with me, she'd treat me like an afterthought who would always be available for anything she wanted, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how rotten her behavior. The friendship became very one-directional at that point. I gave, gave, gave. She didn't offer me much of anything.

I've found that only when she's insecure about my feelings toward her does she treat me better and sometimes even claim to be romantically interested. When I'm nice and gentle, I become just another girlfriend (I'm a guy, in case it wasn't obvious). When I'm mean and bitter, there's fighting and tension at the outset, then a relatively short period of silence, followed by a mellowing on her part and an attempt to boost my spirits and reignite my hopes for possible future intimacy with a series of mixed signals.



That does sum it up, and I agree it sounds horrible. The male ego doesn't tolerate rejection well. However, in my defense, I really do feel emotionally entangled with this girl. I've tried to break things off with her completely and it never works. Usually she'll come back to me, sometimes I'll go back to her. I feel empty when there's no interaction. I also get physically ill at the thought of her with other people, although that might be a complicated mix of jealousy over failed conquest and longing for whatever connection we share as two lonely and needy individuals with a 7 year history of interaction and gamesmanship.



She once told me she was asexual. A couple months later a friend of her's introduced her to a guy she ended up getting very sexual with for a period of 3 months. Her friends and I couldn't understand what she saw in him or why she was so willing to surrender her body to him in ways that she generally doesn't do with others. The guy is an ugly, overweight, balding deadbeat dad who ignored her five out of seven days a week, insulted her body, and only called her up for late night hookups. He even had another woman on the side. He was the quintessential "hit it and quit it," yet she stayed with him, boasted about her sexual escapades with him to me, told me to stop texting her because I was "a cockblock," and gave him most of what he wanted (except anal and vaginal sex). Eventually she cut him off when his exploitation became too much for her to bear.

I don't understand how a girl who can't even be hugged by most guys can end up in an intimate relationship with someone like that. I felt like a total zero and I think of him and what he had every time I get rejected by her.

Yeah, that's where her perception and intelligence would come in. That's what I was asking: is she at all perceptive and intelligent enough to know when someone doesn't mean the flattering things he is saying when he feels or thinks differently? If so, you may have your answer for the reason for her refusal to have- or even aversion to- sex with you.



Maybe she's emotionally dependent on you too, but she knows that you are expecting sex, which she isn't willing to give. And she thinks, 'He wants me to have sex with him and I don't want to, so let's just forget the whole thing,' and then she misses your conversation, etc...so she thinks, 'Well, I would like to interact with him again, and it seems that he's only interested in doing that if there's the promise of sex, so I'll throw out a few mixed signals and lure him back into a few conversations' and then that inevitably leads to you asking for sex again...see what I'm saying?

You both want/need each other but in different ways. She's happy with the status quo - you're not- so she knows she has to manipulate to keep the status quo. But you're manipulating her too because even though she's stated she doesn't want sex, you're continuing to give her what you know she does want with the hope that she'll eventually have sex with you even though you know she doesn't want that.


I think you using the word 'gamemanship' to describe your relationship says it all.
But it aint just her playing the games - is it?
It reads to me as if you see her as much of a challenge as she sees you - as in you're saying, 'I WILL get her to have sex with me, depite the fact she's said she doesn't want to,' at the same time that she's saying, 'I will retain him as my emotional buddy/crutch without ever having to give into his demands for sex.'
She needs you to need her emotionally and you need her to want you sexually and actually - neither one of you are having your needs met, innit?



Yeah, well the whole sex at a distance thing you describe (nude pictures over the internet, her performing quasi sexual acts on you while not allowing you to touch her, no penetration - even with people she says she behaves sexually with) sounds to me as if she doesn't particularly like or need sex, but she's doing what she believes she should portray herself as wanting to do in a way that doesn't actually call for alot of her physical or emotional interaction.
The deal with the heavy, bald, deadbeat dad sounds like humiliation.
How's her self-esteem in other areas - career, family, friends?

I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you both need to find someone else to talk to who also respects your wants and needs.
You know sex is a reciprocal act. Sometimes you have sex with someone because they want it - not because you want it. She doesn't seem willing to do that for you.
But sometimes you accept that someone doesn't want to have sex when you want to - you don't seem to be willing to do that for her.

You just don't sound like a good match, or as if you respect each others desires enough to maintain a reciprocally giving and mature friendship or sexual relationship.

You're both playing games to get what you both want regardless of what the other person has stated they want and need.
That's not a friend.
That's a competitor.
Who do you think will win in this situation?
Sounds like no one is or will win anything except frustration.
Fascinating thread though.
By the way - what's a 'cockblock'?




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URL: http://able2know.org/reply/post-4874805

Like I said, a conquest... Why do you have to win?

And, like I said, you ignore her, she comes running, you be nice, she walks.

Let me ask you a question? Why do you think she does these favours? In my opinion, it's because those guys are using her for favours and she likes a bad boy, one that she "can't get" and the reason is, because she doesn't love herself, believe in herself. That is why you are and have been on a string all this time, because you change who you are, instead of being consistent and being yourself, you change to "try to win" ... Ego. Same game, you are both playing I agree with the above quote.

Certainly seems as if you could do with some counselling to deal with your slightly creepy obsession with this woman.

You need to move on and learn how to have a healthy relationship with an adult.

I'm not sure. She's never struck me as intelligent or perceptive. If she were, she wouldn't make the bulk of mistakes she's made in her life. I'm not referring to her treatment of me, where I'm obviously biased. In other areas, she makes poor decision after poor decision. She's often the last person to see something coming.

This is not to say that she doesn't possess other qualities to which I am attracted. She can be very kind and considerate. She's extremely forgiving. She possesses a plethora of cute mannerisms and idiosyncracies that make me smile.



I do see what you are saying, except I'm really not expecting sex, or at least I don't think that's my objective. I can respect a woman who wants to wait until marriage. I wouldn't want her (or any other woman) to do anything that exceeds her personal limits on principle. However, if someone has already engaged in a certain sexual act, my ego can't tolerate that she's done more with others (who her own friends deemed less worthy) than she's willing to do with me. I want what those guys have had; I want their experiences. This holds especially true when I think I'm better than the other guys.

There was the one occasion where she gave me a mechanical, detached blowjob. I don't need another one. I didn't even like it, but at least that box has been checked. I'd be satisifed with making out and cuddling. A mere kiss, a real one, not a peck, has been my goal. You mentioned on the previous page that sometimes people will engage in intimacy because it's what the other person needs and wants. I don't feel that a kiss is so much to ask for or expect, given what I've provided for over seven years. The other guys she's been with all treated her horribly, yet she had less difficulty being intimate with them. I've mostly been very good to her, very patient, very understanding. I'm not an aggressive person, nor am I particularly assertive. Whenever we've gone out, I respected her physical boundaries. The most I would do on my own is offer a loose hug.



I don't want to play games. As a part of our cycle, I eventually break down and openly tell her what I want. I inundate her with questions in an effort to procure logical explanations. She only gives me conclusions, not reasons. Typical conversation when I'm at my lowest point:

Her: "We don't have that kind of relationship."
Me: I've noticed. I want to know why you feel we don't have that kind of relationship.
Her: "We just don't."
Me: And you're certain it couldn't build over time?
Her: "Yep."
Me: Why?
Her: "Don't care."
Me: Am I not good looking enough to you?
Her: "You're fine. I don't want to risk our friendship."
Me: How would it risk our friendship?
Her: "It would be awkward. There's no spark. I'm not interested in you, sorry."
Me: Then why did you flat out say you liked me romantically in the past and say I should consider you as a girlfriend? You seemed depressed over your perception that I wanted someone else and didn't like you back.
Her: "That was the past."
Me: That was a week ago.
Her: "I don't want to kiss you, sorry."
Me: What changed between last week and today?
Her: "Who cares? You don't like me anyway. It's the past."
Me: If you knew I liked you, would that make a difference?
Her: "Nope. Are we done now? I have to go."
Me: Do you want to be with anyone else?
Her: "I don't want a relationship with anyone, get over it. I like being alone. I'll never have anyone."
Me: "Then how do you explain ____ (the ex)?"
Her: "Why do you compare yourself to him? We don't have that kind of relationship."
Me: Are you saying you could never consider me romantically in the future?
Her: "Yep."
Me: Why?
Her: "You annoy me. I know my feelings won't change."
Me: Your feelings change every other week.
Her: "Cool."
Me: Alright, whatever, bye.

Then I get a text message from her about 15 minutes later, "Are you never going to talk to me again?" I'll reply, "I'm still here." She'll ask, "Are we still friends?" I'll say, "Up to you." She'll say, "I'm asking what you want." Then I go into one to four word answer mode for a couple months where I don't ask her any questions about anything (that's the game part) and she starts enticing me again with the possibility of more than friendship, although even then, never anything physical.



She has no career. She's one of those people who lingers in community college for several years with no real direction or drive. She's a C and D student in most of her coursework. She's flunked the same class three times. She rarely takes more than two classes per semester.

I think she's capable of better. She doesn't seem motivated. She doesn't put in any effort. If I don't push her to complete an assignment and agree to help her out on it, she won't even do it. Even when I do help her, which is often, she'll quickly grow impatient and cut my assistance short. She'd rather watch a television show or talk to me about a pair of sunglasses she wants to buy. She likes commisserating about school and her career plans about as much as she enjoys discussing friendship vs. physical intimacy with me: not at all.

She has a vague objective to become a registered nurse at some point, something her mother, a registered nurse, wants for her. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it ever happens.

In terms of family, she lives with her mother and an adopted teenaged sister with spinal bfida. She is not close with her mother. They'll watch a few TV shows together when the mother returns from work, but otherwise there isn't much of a relationship. They don't even eat meals together. Sometimes they can go days without talking. Her mother once told her that she was a mistake, an unintended pregnancy, and that if not for her, there would have been no marriage to her father, and no need to adopt the disabled sister (they receive payments from the state to take care of her).

Until very recently, the father also lived with them. He passed away earlier this month from respiratory failure. She did not have a good relationship with him at all. He was very dictatorial. He gave her a curfew of 9pm even though she's in her 20s. If she really wanted to go out somewhere, she'd lie to her father and pretend that she was spending the night at her half-brother's house on the other side of town. Her dad would call her fat, ugly, stupid, lazy. He'd tell her she'll never amount to anything. He never said "I love you" to her (something she's recounted to me many times). She'd go to bed crying and cutting herself to ease the pain. Only when he'd travel internationally for up to three months at a time did she feel like she had any kind of real freedom because her mother is the antithesis of her father when it comes to discipline. The mother could not care less where the daughter is, with whom, or when, as long as her daughter is available to feed the disabled sister each late morning.

There are also some half-siblings. She doesn't know her paternal half-siblings well. She's met them only a few times. They live several thousand miles away in other countries. They're significantly older than her and already have their own families. The paternal half-sister is mentally ill and once attacked her.

The maternal half-brother, six years older than her, lives in the same area at another house. She goes out for the occasional meal or errand run with him but they're not particularly close. She has lots of young cousins and second cousins who she frequently babysits. Almost every weekend there's a family gathering of some kind and it's her job to keep the kids out of trouble.

In terms of friends, she has many acquaintances dating back to high school who she sees on occasion at block parties. She has two close female friends, one of whom is a recluse without any other friends, the other an introvert with many friends who drags her out to parties and shopping excursions. There's a third female friend she sometimes visits. This third friend, a promiscuous, oft-pregnant party animal, plies her with alcohol and introduces her to all kinds of lowlifes, one of whom was the aforementioned deadbeat dad she got involved with sexually. On the male side, there are a few guys who try to go out with her on occasion but she has little interest in being with them and fears that they want more than friendship. She told me she cuts off people who like her romantically if she doesn't like them back.

A typical day for her consists of waking up around 11am, feeding her disabled sister, watching television, snacking, texting, and babysitting a cousin or two who get dropped off. When her mother comes home in the late afternoon she goes to the mall alone to buy something ("retail therapy" as she calls it) and to pick up food for herself. When she returns home, she'll do an half-hour of homework if she can tolerate it (she opts to take more and more of her classes online now), followed by more television/telephone/computer time until falling asleep. Even when she's with her friends, she'll follow this pattern. At parties she tends to be outgoing early on to say hello to everyone and then slinks into a corner to text people or play video games. If she's "drinking away sorrows," as she describes it, she remains introvertive for longer.



I think I'll win if I argue, beg, and bargain for a mechnical kiss devoid of sentiment. Even then, it would take awhile. But I'd rather be able to experience intimacy with her more naturally, where we're just spending time with one another and I can reach over and just do it gently without her feeling apprehensive and coerced. I don't want the process to feel like a business transaction. I'd rather make her want to kiss me than have her sit there like a log and go through the superficial motions because I demanded them. The problem is that even when she's liked me romantically (her words, not mine), I don't think there's ever been a time she wanted to kiss me. According to her, she's never thought about it. Her conception of romance with me seems to be constant companionship and the outward appearance of a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, without the physical component. She's told me in the past that she realizes that's unfair to me. Sometimes she's said she hopes that at some point in the future we'd develop the physical spark, but that she can't make that guarantee. Other times, usually when angry, she says there's no way it will ever happen and that I shouldn't put my life on hold for her.



Something or someone that acts as an impediment toward sexual activity. When she was with the deadbeat, I apparently texted her too often which interfered with their sexual escapades.

Yes, "creepy" is the right word.

There's a level of obsession -- and ignoring what doesn't compute -- even just in your posts here.

It's much more convenient to pathologize her, and you seem to enjoy lingering on her deficiencies.

This is part of what I mean about the fact that you guys don't even seem to really like each other much. In all of these words you've written about her so far, there is markedly little affection for her or positivity about her. About the best you can do is say that she could probably do better at school if she tried.

From what you've written here, she's a normal, somewhat insecure person who likes attention. She prefers it when you're paying attention to her compared to when you're not paying attention to her, but it's more about the attention than about you.

She's not attracted to you, and when she feels pressured, she retreats.

She's admirably honest about the fact that she's not attracted to you, though she'd still prefer attention from you. Hopefully she'll reach her limits on that soon and go her own way, thereby forcing the issue, but that doesn't sound imminent necessarily.

If you were 14, I'd understand this whole thing bit more. But 29 is too old for it.



It is too much to expect. And pursuing this line of thinking will at best cause more problems in what relationship you have, at worst will be a crime.

MOVE ON.

She sounds like a bottom of the barrel catch, the only redeeming quality that she might possess is being a great ****, but you have no way to know and this should not be assumed. Dont you want better for yourself? Why all the effort trying to figure out what it would take to get a third rate woman?

Look for better.

Grow up.

Get over yourself.

Move on.

let's hear this one more time

You are obsessed over this.

You are not trapped in a friend's zone.. Friends don't analyse someone to death, someone obsessed however, knows every single detail which you seem to do, about that person..

It stands to reason and I said alot earlier that she probably was never loved as a child and therefore, doesn't want to feel it, scared to feel it, or doesn't believe in it, or herself. Leave her alone...

And, I'll add now... If you were a "friend" you would get her the hell out of there, encourage her study, be there and help her study, encourage her to get a job, encourage her to find a place of her own and help her start living.

Who the heck wants to live for years and years being told to be home by 9pm when in their 20's or buy your own food, care for your sister, just breathe, don't ever live?

The way I see it, it's prey...

Be a man, quit trying to get anything from her and be a friend, and do some good for once and help her get a life... You go out three times a week and party and sleep with others, and therefore, have a life..

Her only avenue of a connection at least without sex, is you.. You know that, and so for 7 years you retain that, but expect something in return for giving up your time..

That's not friendship... You are not her friend..

I recognize her qualities too. I've mentioned some of them here, such as her kindness, her remarkable ability to forgive, her affability, her cute mannerisms which apparently only I notice in her. I focus on the negative because I both like her and hate her at the same time. I resent not being good enough for her in the way I want to have her. Part of me wishes I had never encountered her in the first place because my reaction to her has been a constant source of low to moderate grade suffering and chronic depression. Of course she has positive attributes, but she's not Miss Perfect either, far from it. I don't feel she's in a position to be so ultra selective when it comes to me, yet accepting of objectively lowlife deadbeats.

She ought to be thrilled that I'm interested in her. I'm a professional, I'm financially secure, I'm geographically flexible. I often center my life around her to be attentive toward her needs. If she contacts me while I'm at work, I generally put down whatever I'm doing and listen to her or help her out.
Because of the time difference, I stay up much later than I ordinarily would to talk to her online. If I'm out with friends or driving around town and she reaches out to me, I pull over and talk. If she calls me at 3am, I answer the phone and give her as long as she needs. I send her rainbow roses (her favorites) on occasion just to make her smile. I keep track of certain details that are important to her and surprise her with them. I do plenty for her and I don't feel I'm getting enough back in return. Friendships, even of the purely platonic variety, ought to be two-way.

The strange thing is I've come to depend upon her contacting me even though she's usually the one who reaches out to me for something. The few times I've gone to her with an issue (not my quest for intimacy), she's rarely delivered. Yet going even just a couple days without contact from her unnerves me. Right now it's Day 3 without having had any communication from her and it gives me tremendous anxiety. I know that I could contact her at any time and she'd probably answer within a couple minutes, but I don't want to come across as the needy one. I do too much of that already when I break down emotionally over her lack of physical attraction toward me.



In many respects, I'm socially 14. I've never had a relationship, aside from early childhood hijinks fooling around with neighborhood girls. I find it easier to have sex with somebody than to build a meaningful relationship. Most of my sexual experiences are with outgoing older women who make the first, second, and third moves, or with more age-appropriate girls (usually of foreign extraction) who are even more timid than I am; it takes me awhile to warm up to somebody in person. I was coddled and sheltered by my parents for a very long time. To this day, they treat me like I'm 12. They're very loving and I get along with them well, but I'm always going to be a boy to them. They call and e-mail me multiple times a day and yell at me if I'm not quick to respond. I can't even remember the last time 24 hours went by without my talking to them.

Like the girl I've been writing about here, I was rarely permitted to go anywhere. Not until I finished high school did I finally have some freedom, yet I didn't take much advantage of it. I focused almost exclusively on my studies because I didn't want to repeat my failures from high school, where there was another girl whom I obsessed over, albeit more from afar (I never really got to know her). I excelled academically in college and that portion of my life all went well, I just didn't have much of a social life. I made no lasting friendships during college or graduate school. I might exchange occasional comments on a former classmate's Facebook wall, but that's not a real friendship.

All my real friends are from high school or the local bars I frequent. Most are male, two are female and both in stable long-term relationships I've always respected. We go out to ballgames, we go to restaurants, we go to the movies, we rollerblade, we go over to each other's homes, etc. I'm actually fairly popular at one of the bars. People will call in to see if I'm there. But I either end up in friendships or meaningless sexual relationships devoid of true intimacy. I'm a selfish gentle lover, not so much because I don't want to make another person feel good, but because I'm too shy and publicly polite (even in a bedroom setting) to risk embarrassing myself, or to unleash the more aggressive inner me that only I know. Some of the women don't seem to care. If they do, they don't show it. Whether I hear from them afterwards or not is irrelevant to me. Some of them I sleep with repeatedly, always because they make the effort to get together. I don't particularly enjoy their company, I'm not even always sexually attracted to them. I do it because they want to do it, I'm a man, and I figure I need a sexual release as much as anyone else. Often when I'm with them, I'll think about the girl I've been discussing here, although not in a pornographic way. She'll just pop into my head.

I think a major reason why I'm so fixated upon this girl is because I do feel emotionally attached to her, whereas I'm not emotionally attached to most others. That's not something I experience very easily. In fact, that's not something I have with anyone else right now. Also, we already know almost everything there is to know about one another. For me, that's the difficult aspect of building a friendship or a relationship. It takes me forever to reach a level of comfort where I can openly talk to somebody, be myself, act without apprehension, and not only be Mr. Quiet and Polite Sycophant. There have been times where my friends say, "Wow, I didn't know you could be so funny!" The girl who isn't attracted to me recently said that during our second to last outing together. Who I am on the outside is only partially who I am on the inside. Each time I go out with her (or anyone, for that matter) is typically more comfortable than the previous. The more assertive, less socially guarded inner me begins to make appearances. I feel I'm almost at that stage with this girl, which is part of the reason why I have a difficult time giving up on her. I don't blame her for not feeling a spark. I'm awkward, especially when I'm interested in somebody. But the awkwardness dissipates with time and I eventually become a more gregarious person whose company friends enjoy.



She's sometimes told me that she keeps her true feelings to herself and that she has a propensity to say things just to defuse a situation and change a topic. Given her inability to break away from me the few times I've tried to break away from her, I wonder whether she sometimes hurts me on purpose just to get me to leave her alone and quit nagging. Judging by her actions, I think the truth is that she's not physically attracted to me now, but that it has more to do with our in-person chemistry than my looks. And while she expects instant chemistry with potential lovers, I know from my own experience that my chemistry with people builds over time because of my innate shyness. I'm not the same person on Date 1 that I am on Date 5. If she gives me the chance to demonstrate that to her, maybe things would be different. Sometimes she's been the one who playfully touches me.

I made another interesting observation about a year ago when she went on camera for me. While she was moving her laptop from one room to another, I noticed that two of the stuffed animals I had sent her were in her bed, and that several rainbow roses (now dead) that I had sent her months earlier were hanging on her wall. She's also told me that she keeps every letter I send her and every card. "Crazy, huh?" she asks. Are those really the actions of someone who lacks romantic interest? I don't keep every little item that my friends send me. I don't even keep everything that she sends me.



I would never physically hurt or assault her, nor would I do that to anyone else. I'm more apt to talk people to death than to ever actually inflict tangible harm.

I do all of that already. It usually leads to fights. She'll say, "Don't tell me what to do!" or "Stop being so judgmental! It's my life! This is why I don't like talking to you! (even though she always does)." Sometimes she'll tell me to mind my own business, which is curious because she's the one who brings up these topics.

I think she prefers venting to actually receiving practical feedback. It's another reason why I don't take all her words at face value. She'll say she doesn't like talking to me when it's obvious that she does; she'll say she doesn't want to talk about something and then she'll proceed to talk about it on her own. She'll say she wants me to leave her alone but then when I do so abruptly not even 20 minutes will go by before she calls me or sends an apologetic text message. She'll say she doesn't care about me at noon and by 7pm she's telling me how important I am to her.

She detests confrontations of any kind. She'll say whatever she has to say to move a conversation in another direction. What if that's her strategy when it comes to her statements about not being attracted to me? I know it's probably wishful thinking on my part, but I think it's possible, even if only remote. She's admitted to me that she hates conflict and tries to drive people away, sometimes even as a test of their dedication. I've asked her if she's testing me and she says, "In the past" or "Nope."

Nevertheless, if I feel there's something really important she should be doing, I let her know, even when it's against my own personal interests, and even when I know she'll get angry at me. Sometimes she appreciates my forcefulness and tells me well after the fact. Other times I never hear about it a second time.

Sometimes I fight myself. Part of me selflessly wants what's best for her and I'll give her the objectively proper advice. Another part of me selfishly wants her to fail because I resent her resistance toward me. When I heard that her father died, my first reaction was one of genuine empathy. I felt depressed myself, having never even met the man because I knew that she must be going through a cataclysmic ordeal. But later on when I ruminated more about how this will impact her longer-term future, I iniquitously thought to myself, "Oh no, with her dad gone, now she's no longer going to be under virtual house arrest every night at 9. She'll be able to go out wherever and whenever she wants year round. This increases the probability of her finding someone else to replace me in every way. It increases the likelihood of her hooking up with yet another guy that will make me jealous. Poor me."

Rationally, I know it's repugnant for such a thought to even cross my mind. Emotionally, I can't control what I feel. There's a disconnect between what my head tells me and what my ego desires. I don't know how to reconcile the two. I've tried. I read self-help books. I come to forums such as these (which I do find helpful, at least temporarily). I try as much as possible to distract myself with work, sports, and hobbies. Nothing seems to completely work.

Therapy looking into why you are longing for a third rate woman is in order here. You will not find the ansxwer on a2k, you will only find it with-in yourself. If you refuse to do the work you are doomed to a miserable life.

Sometimes she'll randomly tell me how "tight" she is. I don't know why she does this if she's not purposefully trying to entice me. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but she does bring it up. She'll also say she's worried about whether her breasts are the same size, or whether her nipples are the right color. She once sent me pictures of hickeys her lowlife ex-lover gave her on her breasts.



On a superficial level, I have another option right now. There's a woman just one year older who is physically attractive and openly interested in dating me. She pushes for it often and I never take her up on it. The reason is two-fold: (1) I'm not emotionally prepared to give up on the one I've been discussing and (2) I suspect that the woman interested in me has an agenda. She doesn't know me that well, she lives in the projects, she's a single mom with a 6 yearold daughter (the father ran off to Guatemala, never even meeting the kid), and she's already talking about meeting my mom and cooking with her. I think what she's really attracted to isn't me, but my professional stability and financial security. I could probably sleep with this woman if I wanted. I've resisted even spending time with her thus far.

I'm not sure that interests and obsessions always carry a logical foundation. Her status as third rate does not deter me. I was once obsessed with a first rate girl too, way back in high school. I didn't get anywhere with her, which might explain why I was eventually able to let go, albeit five years later. When I see even a glimmer of hope, I tend to fight harder. When there's no hope at all, I surrender with comparative ease.

With this girl, we're at least close in the sense that we know everything about each other and generally talk often to one another. I'm not an education snob, nor someone who cares much about social status in a mate. I care about those factors in terms of how others will perceive me, but not with respect to my own private preferences. I would rather be with an unattractive homeless alcoholic with whom I felt an emotional connection than someone with whom no such bond existed, even if she would conjure up the image of the ideal First Lady.

Her third rate status is not about education, it is about her lack of knowing what she wants, her lack of drive to do much of anything, her lack of desire to please you and her lack of reception to your longing for her. You need to get it through your head that when it comes to picking women one of the top three requirements for smart choices is to pick a woman who wants you. We are all saying the same thing here.....you are refusing to do this, you are longing after a woman who does not indicate that she wants you, and who does not have any indication of any attributes that would make it worth your time to try to get her to want you. You need to figure out what this is all about, the number one answer is that you dont actually want a woman who wants you, because you either dont think that you deserve one or because you are afraid that you will find out that you dont know what to do with a woman if you actually had one.

In this thread you are all about wanting to know about this chick, but where you need to be focusing is on you, you need to know why you are doing this to yourself. Figure out what the **** you want, and then go get it. I actually have sympathy for you because long long ago I was kind of like you, but you are coming across as pathetic, and you need to "get" that.

I hear some truth in that, but a third one.

That at 29, he's always been a work-a-holic, book worm, climbed the ladder enough to be secure in life.. Consequently, everything else went out the door and now there is only in-security in himself and that of women.. Every woman "may" be after his "security".. I note the OP mentions a "child" and immediately assumes as he claims she knows not alot of him, therefore, he knows not alot of her, although he analyses everything and has ensured he knows what he feels is enough.. "She has a child, husband left, never saw the kid and she works in projects"... That, she is a goldigger.

Is this your fear (not you Hawkeye ) ?

So this girl of 7 years has nothing, knows nothing, but can relate to you. But, I remember now that even there, you made mention of spending money on her, like 7 times or something and she owes you.

Great point. As others have alluded to, I know that insecurity with women is an issue. That's the broad category. Trying to delve into the specifics tends to be more challenging. I'm really not afraid of rejection, as long as I haven't invested much time and effort into knowing someone. Once I'm in, I tend to go all in, and I'm not a quitter. That mentality served me well in college and graduate school. I was more of a plugger than innately intelligent. However, in the realm of women, persistence tends to be more of a negative attribute than a positive one. There's a fine line between trying hard and forcing the proverbial square in the round peg. The problem is I don't know with 100% certainty that I'm going to fail. It seems more likely than not but even she might not know that answer. Regardless, your point that it shouldn't even be worth finding out if I can eventually win her over is well-taken. Why should I be desperately chasing after an objectively third rate girl who often makes me miserable? Even if she wanted me this second, why should I be interested? If I genuinely cared for her, and I think I really do on some level, I would respect her for who she is, not what I need or want her to be. If she came around eventually, great (maybe), if she didn't, so what, there are better candidates out there. I should just live my life already. Emotionally, I may not be prepared to quit her cold turkey, so like a cigarette addict, I may need to ween off of her over time. Not ignore her completely if she reaches out to me, but cease making an effort to always be available for her. And not as a game, as a way to really move on and stop being fixated on a scenario I intellectually know to be wrong for me. Maybe I have to go out even more often than I do and avoid being alone in my thoughts. I'm more sociable than I give myself credit for sometimes. Staying occupied and having a life is more attractive to people anyway. No one trusts an isolated loner who pants like a dog for someone's scraps.

I often hear from male friends and female friends alike, as well as people's parents and grandparents what a great guy I am, how I'm the type of person they'd love their child, grandchild, friend, etc., to present to the family and marry. Just tonight a guy told me that if I sat outside with a sign saying, "Accepting Applications," I would receive plenty of offers. Maybe that's true, perhaps he was just trying to make me feel better. The problem is that despite the bevy of compliments, girls rarely consider me romantically unless they have some kind of deep insecurity of their own (middle age, loneliness, extreme shyness, etc.)

Some people tell me I'm too nice. (I have my fair share of bad traits and impulses, as many see on display here, however I'm successful at concealing them in public.) I'm very non-threatening in person. Guys I barely know trust me to drive their attractive girlfriends home at night (which happened tonight). I've had drunk co-eds hanging all over me on occasion, down for anything, and I just called them a cab instead of taking advantage. On the one hand, I really am a good guy with most people. The girl with whom I'm infatuated senses this too. Yet below the surface lies this tremendous sense of emptiness, jealousy toward the relationships of others, and insecurity at my ability to connect with someone romantically.

That may be part of the reason I'm so desperate to connect with a girl who objectively speaking isn't that great. I've already achieved that elusive level of connection with her on some level, even though it is fraught with competition, negativity, envy, possessiveness, paradoxical motives, and obsession. She's horrible for me. I rationally know that well. But she's also all that I feel I have now. I don't know if I'm capable of exerting the energy required to connect with someone else. Sometimes I wish I could skip from the initial pleasantries straight to the relationship without having to nurture it. I hate nurturing anything. It's where I become too clingy. It's where I reveal too much about my inner self. I become too much of an open book. When I don't chase after a girl and only see her as a friend, I do great. When I start targeting someone (which I rarely do anyway), I inevitably blunder and scare her off.

I haven't totally alienated the girl with whom I'm obsessed probably because she's as much of a psychological mess a I am, perhaps even moreso, and consequently we tolerate one another even though we're bad for each other. Bad company is better than no company (at least to me) and sometimes we really do enjoy our time together. We're not always in conflict, even though the underlying competition and cross-wired intentions invariably rise to the surface.

Again, I understand at least some of this rationally. My feelings refuse to obey my head. It's like those old Tom and Jerry cartoons where the angel tells Tom to do the right thing and then the devil appears and tries to tug him in the opposite direction. There've been plenty of times when I say to myself, "Are you nuts? What the hell are you thinking?" I'm not at all concerned about how I physically react to adversity. I'm confident I would never do anything harmful in that regard. It's more about my own mental well-being and that of the object of my obsession. I'm as much of a trickster with her as she is with me, maybe more. I engage in all kinds of intellectual subterfuge and chicanery that even I realize are borderline insane. I'll do something really nice for her and then something subtly horrible the next day. I'm not completely sure why I go in both directions. It might be based upon however she has me feeling in the moment. If I'm more optimistic because it's the 10% of the time where she acts like she might want me, I treat her exceptionally well. If I'm more pessimistic, I openly root for her demise, even if my head still has enough control to say the right things. It's very selfish of me. She's probably being very selfish too, but like you said, I need to analyze myself, not her. I'll never be in her head. I'll never know anything with absolute certainty. No matter how good my skills of manipulation may be at times, I can ultimately only control my own conduct. I may not be able to prevent all bad thoughts from entering into my head but we can always control our behavior (as long as we aren't intoxicated, which I never am anyway, I'm an annoying goody goody that way).

You know what? I'm actually stating to feel a little better now. I hope this lasts. I've sometimes had these epiphanies and moments of clarity only to succumb later on to a full-board assault from my obsession trying to convince me that I really do have a chance. I need to stop taking the proverbial bait. If she really wants to prove herself to me, she'll have to do it with actions, not words. I don't mean by jumping into bed with me. I mean by becoming less standoffish and belligerent. Despite my weaknesses, I think I'm reasonably perceptive, and could probably discern the difference on the basis of verbal patterns, tone of voice, and body language. I need to stop drawing convenient conclusions from mere words. I also need to stop asking her anything about her personal life, other than perhaps how she's carrying on without her dad. I'm not a total selfish ingrate. But no more talk of romance. No more talk of guys she might be interested. If she asks questions about girls I'm with (which she often does), I'll refuse. There's no need for those kinds of conversations. They're more likely to cause a setback than move me forward. Why should I want to know anything that could potentially make me jealous, even if I shouldn't be jealous in the first place? What's the point? It's her life. It's her decision. I don't need to know everything she's doing at every second. I can't ask her every hour of every day what she's up to and with whom. It shouldn't even matter to me. We're not a couple. No woman owes any man her body, no matter how outwardly well the man have treated her. Tough luck for me. It happens. I think I'm right to be mad about the imbalance in give and take, but sexuality shouldn't be part of that equation, only emotional support. And why should I want emotional support from such an imperfect person? I'm not trying to demonize her, I'm being honest. It would probably be harder for me if she really were a great catch. Take solace in knowing I'm not missing out on much.

It'll be a struggle at times, I know, but I need to push myself to persevere. The same great self-control I have for in person interactions needs to carry over to what I say on the phone and in electronic communications. Stop trying so hard with her. Stop trying anything with her. I've done too much already.

Still, easier said than done. We'll see.

It's not just that she has a child and is struggling economically. She came on too strong, too fast. Before our second outing she was already talking about meeting my parents, cooking with my mom, and traveling together. She described some of her previous relationships to me where she lived with a couple guys after barely knowing them. (One died, the other fled when she got pregnant). She told me how great it is that I'm a lawyer and have my life together. She talked about having a difficult time in community college and in landing a job. On Facebook, she'd send me private messages with winks about twice a day. She'd send sad faces if I didn't respond quickly. She'd send me sexy poses and encourage me to call her/text her any time, day or night. She told me how she wishes she were married by now and in a stable relationship. It didn't take her very long to tell me that she lives in the projects and doesn't drive a car.

I honestly would have no problem dating or marrying a person without money if I sensed there were a real connection. I didn't perceive that with her. She was way too money-conscious and touchy-feely. She even asked at one point if she scared me away.

In terms of personality, she's outgoing and pretty, a cheerleader type. She likes clubbing and heavy drinking. That's not me at all. I never attract those kinds of girls if they're sober, and I'm definitely not a clubber. I would be shocked if there were any long-term compatibility and I'm almost afraid to explore it because she seems super clingy.

"Nice" is the wrong word, the word is "impotent".....you have no idea of what you want, and you are not going to do anything and everyone knows it. You may or may not grow out of it, I have known guys like you who were in their 40's who had never gotten it together. They were pretty miserable sons of bitches jsyk, and having money did not help much.

Who are you and what the **** do you want?! If you dont know figure it out, and leave women alone until you do. You can rattle on for many hundreds (thousands?) of words as you pine away about some girl who once gave you a lousy blow job but you cant answer my question can you......