Why I am not Voting Obama

@parados,

People like JTT doesn't see those obvious examples of why he's such a joke with his continued slamming of America. He would be lost without his computer and access to a2k. Where else can he spew such hatred on such a regular basis?

His story is always the same - 100% of the time; slam America. He tells it in a thousand ways, and will come up with more of the same message in different words. He's a ******* bore.

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@cicerone imposter,

Ive got the JTT person on ignore. He never has any solutions in his bag of tricks so hes just in it for effect. Thats low comedy.

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@farmerman,

Four guys in a row, all making lame excuses. Can you guys say major diversion?

This last guy, Farmerman, touted how he was all ready to look at any set of facts and honestly deal with them. Now he has taken the route of Finn and Ticomaya, two true cowards from the land of the "brave" and the home of the "free".

And you make a claim to being an academic, Farmer?

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He never has any solutions

This is so dumb! Is it incumbent upon any citizen who points up crimes to offer solutions? You suggest that you are an academic, Farmer, so why don't you come up with some solutions that will stop US governments from killing people and stealing their resources?

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@farmerman,

That's not comedy; it's a sickness, but I'm not sure what to call it - yet.

Anyone devoting their time to trash one culture as often as he does has a limited life experience. He's a sad excuse for a human who spends his time on one subject. Telling it a thousand different ways only tells us he's addicted in an extreme way.

Anybody devoted to one subject and repeating it ad nauseam is a ******* bore.

It seems he still doesn't get the message he's trying to share, so he repeats it over and over and over and over ....

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@cicerone imposter,

I spent time "feeding" some advocasy that he hungered for. When someone is as lacking in maturity as g=he, well, its time to pack in the towel and admit hes not worth any effort to engage him in adult communication. But, if we wind up talking about him like Im doing now, he gets a kick out of being the center of the next post. SO, Im denying him that.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Anyone devoting their time to trash one culture as often as he does has a limited life experience.

Stop being your oft times ignorant asshole type, CI. That's like saying that one who points out the myriad crimes of gangsters is trashing Italians or Jews or Latin Americans or Russians or ... .

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It seems he still doesn't get the message he's trying to share, so he repeats it over and over and over and over ....

Who doesn't get the message, CI? Jesus Keeerist. You just finished posting to others about how the US has done all these terrible things and now that you have a audience of other idiots you change your tune.

What don't you understand about how many war crimes, continued terrorist actions come from the grandest hypocritical country on the planet?

You know what is truly boring. It's this level of stupidity!

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@Frank Apisa,

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So all I have to do is to mention one item America has exported that is other than death and destruction…and your argument crumbles. It will be shown to be "not true" as you requested…and you will acknowledge that I was correct in calling it hyperbole.

You were correct, Frank. Obvious overstatement.

You should have realized that from what I said further on,

"I too want it to succeed, but I want it to do so in the same manner that, ... ."

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We have lots of problems and even more faults, JTT.

Now, how can this huge problem be rectified when you go about using these euphemisms like "faults" to describe war crimes and terrorism that makes those inflicted upon the US pale by comparison.

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@farmerman,

Honesty sure ain't your long suit, Farmer. You turned and ran as fast as you could when I called you out on your lies and your tendency [it sure is a common one] to cast America's war crimes/torture/rape/terrorism as "warts", "faults" and the like.

And you did this after making high sounding pronouncements about how you were ready to deal with the facts. Really, you only differ from Oralboy or Gunga in degree, Farmer.

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@JTT,

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You were correct, Frank. Obvious overstatement.

Thank you, JTT.

I mentioned we would then go on to the other items in that post, so let's go on to the second item.

You had written:

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This is the very charade I mentioned. What the US is doing now, I suspect you mean Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran, is no different than what America has been doing forever.

Which I indicated was also hyperbole. I wrote: " Same comment re: hyperbole."

To which you replied:

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I can show that has been the case. I challenge you to show it isn't.

Forever is a very long time, JTT. So all I have to do to show this is hyperbole is to show one instance in time when the United States was not "doing what it is doing" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran.

I submit that in 1779...we were not doing anything of the kind...anywhere.

So...we have not been doing it forever.

That was hyperbole also. I was correct.

I think you should acknowledge that. When you do, I will respond to the rest of that original post.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I submit that in 1779...we were not doing anything of the kind...anywhere.

I submit that you are terribly wrong and this bit of nonsense that you are engaged in is every bit as lame as your golf parable. You have embarked on this inane issue to avoid the important one.

The US had already begun its policy of genocide against Native Americans.

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@JTT,

I haven't "embarked" on anything. You did.

I merely pointed out the hyperbole in your embarkation.

FOREVER...IS A LONG TIME.

You engage in hyperbole, JTT...and I called it to your attention.

If you want me to agree with you that many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping others or exporting freedom...suck...I will.

Many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping people or exporting freedom and democracy...SUCK! We ought not to be doing them...and in many instances, it seems to me that our efforts are seriously counterproductive to the stated aims.

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@Frank Apisa,

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If you want me to agree with you that many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping others or exporting freedom...suck...I will.

Many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping people or exporting freedom and democracy...SUCK! We ought not to be doing them...and in many instances, it seems to me that our efforts are seriously counterproductive to the stated aims.

Let me call to your attention, Frank, that you engage in meiosis, [see above].

While mine was clearly not meant to be taken seriously, one really has to wonder, especially given your golfing metaphor, whether yours is intended as serious.

Invading sovereign nations, terrorizing civilian populations, saturation bombing civilians, napalming villages, spreading known carcinogens, free firing on civilians, ... are not examples of "helping people or exporting freedom and democracy". They are war crimes, pure and simple. They are terrorism, pure and simple

They don't "SUCK!", with or without an exclamation mark. They are vicious criminal actions that do not deserve the understatement you give them.

And to what end, Frank?

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@Frank Apisa,

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and in many instances, it seems to me that our efforts are seriously counterproductive to the stated aims.

Of course they are, Frank. The stated aims are simply a cover, [allowed they have been a very successful cover], to hide the real aims, ie. to steal the wealth of others.

And you are either seriously naive or you are attempting to provide cover for these myriad criminal actions.

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@JTT,

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Let me call to your attention, Frank, that you engage in meiosis, [see above].

I do not know what you mean here. Not sure where "above" I am supposed to look in order to understand what you are saying here, but why not just say it, rather than referring me elsewhere?

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While mine was clearly not meant to be taken seriously…

Of course your statements were meant to be taken seriously, JTT…which is why you are defending them. I do agree with you, however, that they shouldn’t be taken seriously. They were hyperbole. Not sure why we are going through all this if you agree with me.

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…one really has to wonder, especially given your golfing metaphor, whether yours is intended as serious…

I am pretty sure I meant everything I’ve said to you so far seriously, JTT. As for the “golfing metaphor”…I use so many on so many occasions, I really am not sure of what your are referencing. I went back a couple of pages and did not see one, but if you can point me to the one you find objectionable…or not serious, I will comment further?

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Invading sovereign nations, terrorizing civilian populations, saturation bombing civilians, napalming villages, spreading known carcinogens, free firing on civilians, ... are not examples of "helping people or exporting freedom and democracy".

Of course they are not...and I didn’t say they were. In fact, I specifically indicated, by my use of the term “done in the name of”…that I did not think they were those things.

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They are war crimes, pure and simple. They are terrorism, pure and simple.

Okay, I understand how you feel about that…and I agree that they may be war crimes...but I am not sure world courts would necessarily agree that they "are pure and simple." There are lots of nuances to the argument, but you seem not to particularly like or consider nuances. Fact is, you have gone so overboard on this issue, it is difficult to agree with you even where I feel inclined to do so.

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They don't "SUCK!", with or without an exclamation mark.

Well, in my opinion, they suck..with or without an exclamation point.

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They are vicious criminal actions that do not deserve the understatement you give them.

You are entitled to that opinion. But I think I am allowed to characterize them as I see fit…and I much prefer my characterization to yours.

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And to what end, Frank?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking me why I characterize them the way I do rather than the way you do…the answer is self-evident. I see things differently from you.

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@JTT,

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Of course they are, Frank. The stated aims are simply a cover, [allowed they have been a very successful cover], to hide the real aims, ie. to steal the wealth of others.

Try to control yourself, JTT. You seem to be agreeing with me on what I say...and then arguing against it.

I have indicated that I think the do things "in the name of..." which is to say, they are hiding their real motives.

I have also said "and in many instances, it seems to me that our efforts are seriously counterproductive to the stated aims."

Because I do not state those things in the frenzied way you do...you seem to want to both agree and disagree.

Not a good idea!

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And you are either seriously naive or you are attempting to provide cover for these myriad criminal actions.

I am not naive...not in any way. And I certainly am not attempting to provide cover for anything. I simply am not willing to state things the way you do--I prefer to be more calm and reasonable.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I do not know what you mean here. Not sure where "above" I am supposed to look in order to understand what you are saying here, but why not just say it, rather than referring me elsewhere?

I said: Let me call to your attention, Frank, that you engage in meiosis, [see above].

Right above my words was a direct quote from your previous post. "see above" means that you go to the first thing above. I didn't refer you elsewhere, I told you to look at the words above my comment.

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Of course your statements were meant to be taken seriously, JTT…which is why you are defending them.

No, Frank, some of my statements are ludicrously extravagant and they are intended to be so. In that, they are like the exceedingly frequent comments that come from US politicians, teachers, media, citizens, movies extolling the virtues of the US. The vast majority of these comments are the propaganda that y'all have been mercilessly pummeled with since the beginnings of the US.

It's testament to your perceptive abilities that you have missed these.

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Of course they are not...and I didn’t say they were. In fact, I specifically indicated, by my use of the term “done in the name of”…that I did not think they were those things.

No, you specifically downplay these things by mixing them up with the propaganda.

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If you want me to agree with you that many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping others or exporting freedom...suck...I will.

Many of the things done by American administrations in the name of helping people or exporting freedom and democracy...SUCK! We ought not to be doing them...and in many instances, it seems to me that our efforts are seriously counterproductive to the stated aims.

You give the idea [also part of the big lie] that there have been some unintended errors, some honest mistakes that occurred as various American administrations set out to "help people" or "export freedom and democracy".

Find a situation where that was the reality and you might have a point. Your phraseology is pure meiosis. Again, Frank, I ask, to what end?

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You are entitled to that opinion. But I think I am allowed to characterize them as I see fit…and I much prefer my characterization to yours.

You really want to advance that position, Frank? Just one example that has been repeated numerous times.

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Systematically, the contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. You remember the assassination manual? that surfaced in 1984. It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror. This is a technique that they're using to traumatize the society so that it can't function.

I don't mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

This is nobody's propaganda. There have been over 100,000 American witnesses for peace who have gone down there and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented 13,000 people killed this way, mostly women and children. These are the activities done by these contras. The contras are the people president Reagan calls `freedom fighters'. He says they're the moral equivalent of our founding fathers. And the whole world gasps at this confession of his family traditions.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

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@JTT,

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I said: Let me call to your attention, Frank, that you engage in meiosis, [see above].

Right above my words was a direct quote from your previous post. "see above" means that you go to the first thing above. I didn't refer you elsewhere, I told you to look at the words above my comment.

I have no idea of why you consider the comments immediately above your comment about meiosis to be meiosis, but if you do--you do. If you would like to explain why you think so, I’d love to hear it.

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No, Frank, some of my statements are ludicrously extravagant and they are intended to be so. In that, they are like the exceedingly frequent comments that come from US politicians, teachers, media, citizens, movies extolling the virtues of the US. The vast majority of these comments are the propaganda that y'all have been mercilessly pummeled with since the beginnings of the US.

It's testament to your perceptive abilities that you have missed these.

Actually, I think a great many of your statements are ludicrously extravagant, JTT…what I would call "hyperbole"...and I called that to your attention. You attempted to defend those ludicrously extravagant statements …now you are suggesting they were not meant seriously. I fail to understand why you would defend them if they truly were "ludicrously extravagant." Why wouldn't you have merely said, "I meant them to be hyperbole?"

In response to that last dig, allow me to suggest it is a testament to your inability to acknowledge when you are wrong by doing what you are doing.

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No, you specifically downplay these things by mixing them up with the propaganda.

No, I did not. I was in fact mocking some of those idea. I am sorry you are unable to grasp that.

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You give the idea [also part of the big lie] that there have been some unintended errors, some honest mistakes that occurred as various American administrations set out to "help people" or "export freedom and democracy".

Read what I actually wrote and try to understand it. In any case, if you are suggesting that no American administration has ever made unintended errors or honest mistakes while trying to do good...then you are once again engaging in hyperbole...or being "ludicrously extravagant", if you prefer.

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Find a situation where that was the reality and you might have a point. Your phraseology is pure meiosis. Again, Frank, I ask, to what end?

If you want to think that no American administration has ever made unintended errors or honest mistakes while trying to do good, JTT, there is not much I can do to persuade you to reconsider…so live with it. As for your question, I have already answered it.

You have a tendency toward hyperbole, JTT. All I wanted to do was to point that out. I tend to discount opinions that are filled with inflated statements…but I wanted to pay your comments some respect.

I will continue to do so, despite considerable misgivings at this point.

Thanks for continuing to discuss this with me. It is a very interesting discussion.

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@Frank Apisa,

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In any case, if you are suggesting that no American administration has ever made unintended errors or honest mistakes while trying to do good.

Go ahead, Frank. I'd love to hear some.

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@JTT,

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Go ahead, Frank. I'd love to hear some.

Okay, but so that we don't have another misunderstanding...you are suggesting that no American administration has ever made an unintended error or an honest mistake while trying to do good...correct?

This is not one of those things that you are offering in the “ludicrously extravagant” sphere…and if I offer a single example, you will not fall back on that kind of thing…correct?

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@Frank Apisa,

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Okay, but so that we don't have another misunderstanding...you are suggesting that no American administration has ever made an unintended error or an honest mistake while trying to do good...correct?

No, I've not suggested that, Frank. Don't make unwarranted assumptions. I simply said that I'd love to hear some.

I actually started a thread, maybe even two, I forget, for folks to describe the good things that the US has done. There were no takers, so I'm now overjoyed that you are going to do so.

1 Reply

Why I am not Voting Obama

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