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The Lies, foibles and misrepresentations of John Kerry

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 09:44 am
Yeah, I know what you're saying, nimh, and had in fact planned to come back and clarify but didn't have a chance.

Swimpy's last three lines are exactly it. Many, many voters will never see an entire speech of Kerry's. Many, many voters don't care at all about what Kerry accomplished for Massachusetts, and implications thereof. Many, many voters will choose based on arbitrary criteria -- who's taller. (Seriously, height is a big one.) Whose campaign materials are more frequent and convincing.

Sad, cynical, wish it were otherwise, but shown to be true over and over again.

I mean, lookit this guy:

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/02/02/politics/03campaign_slide6.184.jpg

I really understand what you are saying about his weaknesses. I am not an ethusiastic supporter. I just, thus far, think that Dean, Edwards, and Clark are even riper targets, and that Kerry's weaknesses are weaknesses the voters don't care about or that are even weaker for Bush.

I'm still gathering info, haven't decided anything for sure.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 09:57 am
From the Guardian...how the Catholic vote might turn to Kerry... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1137835,00.html
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 10:07 am
Regarding electability...it really doesn't matter whom the democrats might finally pick, the Republicans will attack and do so completely lacking in scruples. One need only recall what was done to Max Clelland and John McCain, two men of unbelievable courage and sacrifice, by Bush and Rove, two truly ugly men of unbelievable selfishness and cowardice.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 10:12 am
Yep. That is one plus in the Kerry column -- I believe he is ruthless, himself.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 10:41 am
fighting brimstone with brimstone
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 10:56 am
Did anybody happen to see McCain being interviewed by Jon Stewart last week? ... there's a guy who can think on his feet while picking his way through egg shells.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 03:42 pm
Swimpy wrote:
Kerry has been around the block. He understnads that every word he says will be parsed and can be spun to his opponent's advantage.


Why, then, has he done such a lousy job thus far, in avoiding getting into trouble on his many spins?

The one thing that some journalists are already too aware of, but that the mass of American voters are still to find out (in, say, the next eight months), is that, as Phoenix remarked, here's a man who wants to be all things to everyone. That's gotten him into trouble already back home, since he invariably ends up semi-lying -- and thats going to be picked up on by the media and torn apart, trust me.

He did a lousy job defending his record against Weld - why should we trust him to do any better now? I mean, really - did he show much experience-honed skills last year, when Dean tore into him about his Iraq flops? Hardly - he collapsed instantly as erstwhile front-runner, and only recovered when the issue itself started to take the back-burner. And that was just Dean he was facing.

Fishin' in the other thread noted that something like consistency vs flip-flops will be a big factor for him - well, the mass of US voters may not have picked up on it YET, but this is one factor on which Kerry's going to get into big trouble.

Swimpy wrote:
That's where I think you don't understand American politics, nimh. American's are lazy voters. Most do not spend more than a few minutes finding out about the candidates. The depend on political ads that are deceptive, manipulative and neatly packaged.


Yeh. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Take a look at this link that I posted here earlier - Bring it on - it looks at Kerry's race against Weld and sketches just how vulnerable Kerry, especially, is to those "deceptive and manipulative" ads that Bush is going to throw at him.

Sure Bush & co are going to go after any opponent - its just that with Kerry, compared to Edwards, there's so much more for them to pick up on.

Oh - and on one last note - I'm NOT going to say this again, and since its the n'th time I say it, I'm just gonna be coarse about it - y'all can just piss off with your patronising "its cause you don't understand American politics", too.

I mean, lookit - I posted a string of links/opinions from fellow Americans of yours, who truly believe that KERRY, especially, is going to be in disproportionally big **** against Bush. What, do I have magic fingers? Do I have the power, just by reposting their opinions, to turn their homegrown criticism into signs of foreign incomprehension? Do their observations suddenly spring from lacking "immersion" into US politics, rather than from having followed this guy close enough for quite a while - just cause a Dutchman uses the copy-and-paste function on them? That line of argument just lacks all logic.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 04:22 pm
Kerry had a spate of prominent Democrats from the region campaigning for him in New Hampshire. Proof that here's a guy who knows how to get along with people, how to create that kind of dogged loyalty or spontaneous affection that lifted Presidents like Clinton and Reagan into two successive terms?

Not according to Michael Crowley. If anything, the opposite - and that spells bad news for a campaign in which "Brahmin" Kerry will need to warm the hearts of those blue-collar folks in the Midwest and the South ...

Quote:
[..] The truth is that, far from being a hero, Kerry has always been an awkward fit among the blue-collar Catholics who dominate the Massachusetts Democratic machine.

That tension dates back to Kerry's first, unsuccessful run for Congress in 1972, when he twice publicly changed his mind over which district he would claim as his home. (Kerry's wife even bought a house in working-class Worcester, where he had never lived; after Kerry chose a more suitable district closer to Boston, they never moved in to the Worcester home.) That district-shopping first introduced Kerry to local leaders--who have an intense, often tribal, sense of political geography--as an opportunist lacking strong local roots. ("There was a brashness to it," Kerry recently admitted to The Boston Globe.) He lost the race to an unimpressive opponent.

By 1984, Kerry was the state's sitting lieutenant governor and was running for an open Senate seat. Once again, local Democrats were less than enthusiastic about him. [..] As a result, Massachusetts Dems went so far as to deny him the endorsement of their state convention (something that had also eluded Kerry in the run for lieutenant governor two years before). After a bitter primary campaign, Kerry edged out his opponent by less than 25,000 votes. [..]

In the Senate, Kerry was able to avoid the hostile Boston political milieu. "He went to Washington and we never heard from him again," says the legislator. Unlike Ted Kennedy, who toiled away on pocketbook issues dear to the state's urban Democrats, Kerry preferred geopolitics--taking on issues like Iran-Contra, the BCCI banking scandal, and U.S. relations with Vietnam. When Kerry wrote a book in 1997, it was a long treatise on emerging global threats. If Tip O'Neill ever explained to Kerry his theory that all politics is local, Kerry showed no sign of absorbing it.

Back in Boston, machine Democrats complained that Kerry paid little attention to them. Several legislators explained to Globe columnist Eileen McNamara last month that they never felt they could call Kerry for help. "Why bother?" one asked. "You'd be lucky to have anyone on his staff call you back." Around class-conscious Boston, where blue-collar pols were already suspicious of his Brahmin upbringing, Kerry developed a reputation for fancying himself above the scrum of retail politics, and more preoccupied with his own future than with the state party. And he paid for it. When Kerry once arrived late for a gathering of state Democrats, one cracked from the podium that Kerry had gotten "stuck in front of a mirror." After Kerry made a last-minute cancellation on a local Democratic event a few years ago, an irritated official sent out an email with the header: "GOOD NEWS! JOHN KERRY ISN'T COMING!"

Or consider the ambivalence toward Kerry felt by one state Democratic politico, a networked liberal who agrees with him on most issues. This Democrat has met Kerry numerous times over many years, shares close friends with him, and once even provided critical assistance to a Kerry campaign, about which he is certain Kerry was aware. And yet, he says, "as recently as three or four years ago I could be standing next to John and he wouldn't know my name." At one event several years ago Kerry ignored the man until they were "introduced," at which point Kerry pumped the man's hand with exaggerated familiarity. "I had been in his line of sight for five minutes without him recognizing me," the Democrat says. "Then he acts like we're old buddies!" Too late. "It was one of those embarrassing situations where everybody knew who I was, and he knew he was supposed to know," but plainly didn't. (What bothers this Democrat most, however, is the transformation Kerry underwent once he decided to run for president. "The next time I saw him," he says, "he made this big show of walking across the lawn and shouting [my name] for everyone to hear.")

The complaints weren't limited to minor local politicos. Fellow members of the state's congressional delegation often griped that Kerry did little to land funding for state projects like the Big Dig. ("[H]e overstudies issues without taking action," is how the Globe put it. Barney Frank has likened dealing with Kerry's office to "taking your Ph.D. orals.") [..]

Now all that seems forgotten. [..] So how have Massachusetts pols learned to love the man they once loved to hate? Part of it may be a sense of Kerry as their son of a bitch. Part of it may be some genuine recent progress Kerry has made at stroking local egos. And then there's self-interest. Everyone assumes that a President Kerry will remember who helped him and who didn't. Says a Democratic legislator: "All these guys who didn't like him and didn't take him seriously, but felt like, 'Oh we have to be with him because he's the local guy'--[last] week a lot of them got religion." That's something less than a deep belief in Kerry as a great future president. But after suffering years of Boston brickbats, John Kerry will take all the converts he can find.


(About that poor guy that Kerry failed to recognize. Admittably the weakest, most minor point in the article. But the point there isnt that Kerry wasnt genuinely overcome by heartwarming spontaneity upon coming across him. (Which politician is?). The point is that he failed to make the guy believe he was. That he wasnt just being grossly opportunistic - but that he was so blatantly transparent about it. Failed the Clinton test.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 04:24 pm
Basically, that people like the people you are quoting make up maybe, what, 1% of the voting public. A really large, scarily large percentage of the voting public don't approach it in nearly so well-thought-out of a way.

It's not that they aren't Americans, I know what you're saying there, but that they are so unrepresentative. Having folowed this guy closely for quite a while is not in their favor in citing the more nebulous zeitgeist sort of thing that we are talking about.

Kerry, himself, is just sort of a canvas. What is done with the canvas is up to his staff, his campaign director, the Democratic National party, TruMajority, MoveOn -- it's not just him and whatever apparatus he has had so far. He has enormous resources, especially if he is the nominee. And he is getting better and better at the campaigning.

Quote:


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/politics/campaign/03CAMP.html?pagewanted=2

Sorry you are feeling patronized, I still don't think I've gotten across just what I wanted to get across. I'll think about it more.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 04:38 pm
Fair enough, good take in that article - if there is indeed sudden progress (most of the stuff I've been linking in is a few weeks old), then, great.
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Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 07:16 pm
Quote:
here's a man who wants to be all things to everyone. That's gotten him into trouble already back home, since he invariably ends up semi-lying -- and thats going to be picked up on by the media and torn apart, trust me.


No doubt about it. But that's the very definition of a politician. We don't elect statesmen here. If we are real lucky the people we elect grow into statesmen by the sheer magnitude of the task of being president of the largest force for good on earth (If they see it that way.) Bush almost got there after September 11, 2001, but his lack of character forced him to take the wrong path.

We don't have a crystal ball. We are presented with a handful of willing candidates from which to choose. I don't feel that good about any of them, but I chose to vote for Kerry because his voting record most closely reflects my views. That he has been through some tough races doesn't hurt him either. My guess is that he can give as good as he gets.

The pundits will always have plenty to find fault with, no matter who the candidate is. That's what they do for a living. I don't put a lot of stock in their opinions.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2004 07:45 am
Not that my opinion much matters but here is my 2 Cents .

I think the whole thing depends on how thing are going after the democrats pick a candidate. If things turn around and people think there is hope they will stick with Bush if things remain the same it will be a close race but if things go really down hill a democrat will win and it really don't matter who it is. I guess if things remain the same it will depend on which side is able to win out with their message with all the undecided's and independents.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2004 07:54 am
That is an excellent summary, revel.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 06:47 am
Kerry does well among all Democrats currently, including Afro-Americans and Latinos. But how does he compare to the other contenders among Independents and other cross-over groups?

Quote:
if Mr. Kerry has tapped into voters' rational desire for a winner, Mr. Edwards appears to have touched something more visceral. In Oklahoma, where Mr. Edwards dueled General Clark to a virtual draw, more than 4 in 10 voters most concerned about picking a candidate who cared about people like them chose Mr. Edwards, compared with just under 2 in 10 for Mr. Kerry and 3 in 10 for General Clark. Among voters who cited the economy and jobs as the issue that mattered most in determining their choice, Mr. Edwards won 37 percent, compared with 27 percent for Mr. Kerry.

In South Carolina, where Mr. Edwards was born the son of a millworker, nearly one-quarter of voters said the most important quality in choosing a candidate was whether he cared about people like them, and Mr. Edwards won nearly 6 in 10 of this vote, as against 2 in 10 for Mr. Kerry. And among the nearly 50 percent of South Carolinians who cited the economy as the most important deciding issue, Mr. Edwards won just over half the vote, compared with just over one-quarter for Mr. Kerry.

Mr. Edwards also fared better among self-described independent voters, who, if not quite the typical swing voters of a general election, perhaps came closest on Tuesday to reflecting moods among the overall electorate. In Oklahoma, where the contest was so close and independents accounted for just over 10 percent of the vote, Mr. Edwards drew 34 percent of independents, followed by General Clark, with 28 percent, and Mr. Kerry, with 18 percent.

Even in Missouri, where Mr. Kerry won by more than 25 percentage points over Mr. Edwards and independents accounted for a quarter of the electorate, Mr. Kerry drew just 37 percent of the independent vote, compared with 57 percent of Democrats. And even while losing badly over all in Missouri, Mr. Edwards drew the support of 28 percent of independents.


Source: NYT - In the Midst of a Kerry Juggernaut ...
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 07:25 am
In the minds of the republicans kerry has already won, just look at the way they are going at him already. I really wish clark would win, I just like the guy even if he is a newly hatched democrat, I think he has some big guns behind him that would help him fight off the other side. However, people seem to easily manipulated by the media and kerry will likely be picked and torn apart and then bush will get elected this time. It is depressing. The only thing that will save us is if it is obvious to even the blind how bad things are, and that would not be worth the price.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 07:38 am
This time I only disagree with one small thing, revel.

The Bush being elected part. :wink:
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 08:20 am
The swing voters prolly already have their minds made up about Bush and are waiting to see what info comes out on Kerry, we'll see soon how well he is accepted.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 08:42 am
AP Exclusive: Kerry Blocked Law, Drew Cash
Thu Feb 5, 2:45 AM ET

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

Quote:


Source
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 08:45 am
revel

You have no good historical cause for despair. Clinton, Reagan and the sitting presdient, for example, all looked highly unelectable at certain points in their campaigns.

This time, because folks are increasingly coming to understand the degree to which Bush is an idealogue and extremist (and therefore, how dangerous he is), it seems likely that the trend to high voter turnout that we've seen in the primaries will carry over to the election.

The Rove strategy will, as you suggest, be pregnant with the typical lies and personal slanders we've seen from him before, supported by whatever unprincipled tricks his crowd can muster to keep democrats out of the polling stations. And, of course, we'll see the continuing manipulation of the POOP vote (Protestants Of Obliging Pathologies), but such would hold true even if Christ himself were the Dem candidate.

If the Dems fail, it will be ONLY because they did not work hard enough to get out the vote.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2004 01:11 pm
blatham wrote:
revel

You have no good historical cause for despair. Clinton, Reagan and the sitting presdient, for example, all looked highly unelectable at certain points in their campaigns.


Yeh. So, of course, did Dole, Dukakis, Mondale and Goldwater ...

blatham wrote:
The Rove strategy will, as you suggest, be pregnant with the typical lies and personal slanders we've seen from him before, supported by whatever unprincipled tricks his crowd can muster to keep democrats out of the polling stations.


True, but that is not to say that some candidates are more or less vulnerable to Rovite attacks. Kucinich, for example, would be easier to hit against than Edwards.

The Deanies long used the same argument you've been using. Whenever someone raised the issue of electability about their candidate, vis-a-vis the many glaring ways in which he was vulnerable to a Rove-inspired Republican appeal to mainstream, blue-collar, Christian America, they would say - well, Rove is going to attack any Democrat viciously, anyway - so why even take that argument into account, at all? Well, because they're gonna try with anyone, true, but they're surely gonna have more or less of a field day depending on which man the Dems nominate.

blatham wrote:
This time, because folks are increasingly coming to understand the degree to which Bush is an idealogue and extremist (and therefore, how dangerous he is), it seems likely that the trend to high voter turnout that we've seen in the primaries will carry over to the election. [..] If the Dems fail, it will be ONLY because they did not work hard enough to get out the vote.


Again, this argument doesnt seem to have picked up on the lessons of Dean's demise. The Dean argument, too, was that the Dems didnt need to go for the floating voters much - it was merely about rallying the troops, getting up the turnout. But Dean, the ultimate troop-rallyer, blatantly failed even in the primaries, in comparison with candidates that did have cross-over appeal. (Yes, Kerry too, even though, as the above-posted numbers show, significantly less so than Edwards or Clark). Candidates that did realise that in order to pull in the wavering Independents, one could not rely on the mere evilness of Bush; that whether those would come out for you depended as much on your own image.

Unlike what you suggest, even now few MOR Americans see Bush as "an idealogue and extremist". Even while his job approval rate is dropping precariously, he is still largely (and unbelievably) perceived as a nice guy. Its still an uphill struggle against him. You dont want someone who's all too vulnerable as being portrayed as too leftfield, too elitist, too much of a liberal know-it-all. Bush is folksy. You cant out-folk Bush, like Soz said, but it helps not to occupy the far other end of the spectrum. In order too repaint Bush as a rich guy who uses his office to help the top 1% and business buddies to tax cuts and contracts, you need an opponent who comes across as someone who is one of you, who does feel for and care about ordinary folk.

Both Dean and Kerry were/are uncomfortably elite (New England, Harvard/Yale liberal patricians). I'm not surprised to see in the polls that Kerry doesnt score so well among those who go for someone "who cares about people like you". One of the main reasons my sympathies were partly with Gephardt and Edwards was that they have a heart for blue-collar America. That again leads to anti-free trade stances I wouldnt be happy with. But it feels better, and it feels like it would help them stand a chance.
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