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The Lies, foibles and misrepresentations of John Kerry

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2004 08:42 pm
LOL
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 08:12 am
au1929
au1929 wrote:
revel
Does it matter whether Clinton lied or not? How many people died because of Clinton's "lies"? Dubya on the other hand has on his hands the blood of thousands.


I guess it does to me, it just irks me when people try to say that Clinton committed perjury when he didn't. He did deceive, but then that is not perjury.

However you are right even if he did commit perjury it did not rise to the level of impeachment, it iis certainly different than shading the truth of intelligence to suit an agenda to go to war.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 09:31 am
Seems like as good a place as any to drop this trash:

Quote:
"For over 30 years, Kerry's primary occupation has been stalking lonely heiresses. Not to get back to his combat experience, but Kerry sees a room full of wealthy widows as "a target-rich environment." This is a guy whose experience dealing with tax problems is based on spending his entire adult life being supported by rich women. What does a kept man know about taxes?"


-- Ann Coulter
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 09:48 am
Even Brooks has expressed contempt for Coulter.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:07 pm
Let me make a few things clear:

- I would never vote for Bush, if I were American.

- I think the main thing now is to get Bush out.

- I think that of all the main contenders we've seen, Kerry is perhaps the single weakest. Well, there's Lieberman, of course, and I'm not counting Kucinich, Sharpton and Mosely-Brown. But Edwards, Clark and Gephardt all stand (or would have stood) a better chance against Bush, imho. Even with Dean - I dunno, he could have been an utter failure - but there was also always the off-chance he'd surprise us. But Kerry is just plain mediocre. Too mediocre to make it against Bush on any other terms than Bush himself ******* it up.

- I am not American, I can't vote, I am not aligned with any of the parties, I'm an observer. Thus I probably feel a little more free to criticize any of the candidates. Though again, I want ABB, too - thats why I´m thinking Kerry be best shot down asap, so that another, more qualified candidate can take his place.

- Seriously, I dont think criticising Kerry or Dean on A2K is realistically going to affect the outcome of the elections one way or another. And none of us is going to come up with anything that Rove wouldnt also be finding. Hell - I´m LAZY - all the stuff I´ve posted here thus far is from TNR, simply cause I look into that every day and they disdain Kerry as much as I do. So no reason for any reproach of ´aiding the enemy´. Better know what we´re in for.

- Perhaps the main point: the ´dirt´ on Kerry may seem small fry. I mean, there´s Bush, for one, lying to us about questions of war and peace and national security. Who cares, in comparison, if this guy was too stingy to give money to charity even while he was buying himself uniquely expensive motorbikes - and then was petty enough to [/i]lie[/i] about it afterwards? Well, I do. Cause what I come across is all the time questions of character. This guy has always - well, since he went into politics twenty years ago, anyway - wanted to be everything to everybody ... while at the very same time failing to personally connect with much anyone (sorry, Montana). Both things are rooted in the same thing: he´s just too blatantly been interested primarily in himself. Even his candidacy has been almost only about his individual person, and ridden with excuses here and excuses there.

-- Finally - I really do think Frank Apisa just took me for a Republican there, didnt he! Hehheh ... that must be the first time in over 3,500 posts here that anyone mistook me for a Republican! Dutch leftist, hello! :grins:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:09 pm
Kerry campaigning in New Hampshire :

http://www.tnr.com/graphics2004.1/012304blog_ryan2.jpg

http://www.tnr.com/graphics2004.1/012304blog_ryan4.jpg

http://www.tnr.com/graphics2004.1/012304blog_ryan3.jpg
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:11 pm
Ugh.

I'm still undecided, but I haven't gotten the same sense you have regarding Kerry's electability. Didja see the "Non-AABB's Only!" thread I started? Some really interesting responses.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:23 pm
nimh wrote:
Finally - I really do think Frank Apisa just took me for a Republican there, didnt he! Hehheh ... that must be the first time in over 3,500 posts here that anyone mistook me for a Republican! Dutch leftist, hello! :grins:



I hate when I make that kind of mistake.

I apoligize. I get very upset when (very occasionally) I am mistaken for a conservative or a Republican myelf. :wink:


As for the electability question:

I'm a pragmatist on this issue.

Getting elected involves lots of "saying the right things at the right time."

Anyone who loses in the primaries -- probably doesn't understand that -- and will screw up in the general election.

Whoever finally gets the nod from the Democratic Pary convention will have displayed mastery of that concept. In my opinion, that person is the best bet for the party. All he (or she) has to do is to keep the notion in mind as the audience changes.

I now think Kerry will get the nod -- and acquit himself well in the General Election. I hope that "acquiting himself well" means that he beats George Bush -- and that this time, the beating sticks.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:37 pm
sozobe wrote:
Ugh.

I'm still undecided, but I haven't gotten the same sense you have regarding Kerry's electability. Didja see the "Non-AABB's Only!" thread I started? Some really interesting responses.


Just read it all! Compliments for a brave project - but kinda depressing to see it be so impossible to just have a reasonable conversation with more conservative-minded posters without hauling in a spate of inter-poster and libs-vs-cons putdowns. I mean, this here thread is about putting someone down - but you state your question so clearly, and you still get all the kumquats! Damn.

Anyway, still, you got some good answers there. I guess I totally agree with George on Kerry. He´s got fair enough points on Edwards and Dean, too ... but I dont think he´s being fair on Clark and his NATO-stint, at all. (And I´m not saying that cause I´m much of a Clark man, cause I aint'.

Looking at the votes, it dont look like any one of the four does particularly well among the non-ABB´s. The thing is, Dean´s really the only one who´s actually been tested, who´s had everything thrown at him that´s there. Any doubter who opts for Dean, anyway, does that regardless. Clark was targeted systematically for a little while, too, but with Kerry (but also Edwards), the onslaught is really still to come. That means they might be polling doubters now that will still be turned off when the ´****´ starts flying. Except with Edwards, there´s just so much less ´****´ to find.

Oh, lemme bm that thread of yours.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 02:43 pm
Interesting, even almost moving read in GQ (yes ...) on Dean, Trippi, The Campaign, How Great It Was - and how it all went to **** ... "Live by the blog, die by the blog."

Joe Trippi's Wild Ride

Why am I linking it in, here? Because the one biggest feud must have been the one between Dean and Kerry - Kerry being the ultimate object of pet hate at Dean HQ - and, apparently, with good reason, if you're to believe Trippi:

Quote:
Kerry," he snaps. "They're the only ass.hole snake campaign that would do it." He sighs. "Every frickin' day now, I'm reminded of why I got out of this in the first place."
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 06:41 pm
Odd that you think Kerry is less electable than Edwards, Clark and Gephardt nimh.

To be honest this is the first time I'd say you sounded completely clueless about America.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 06:45 pm
Just finished reading two front-page articles in the NYT about Dean and Kerry, both good.

Between Dean and Kerry, Kerry has the better chance. (I think we agree on this.)

Between Edwards and Kerry, I dunno, but it still seems to go towards Kerry. There's the whole lawyer thing, expensive suits, spectre of "Slick Willy." There's a certain lightweight aura, too pretty, too nice. While Kerry has a more masculine, man's man thing going on.

I've only recently started really reading about this stuff, before that my impressions were pretty much from the ether. But that's not an insignificant way to get impressions in this contest -- a lot of decisions will be made based on soundbites.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 07:07 pm
I think you have the soundbites right. Lots of the knocks on Kerry are based on intelligence that I think is charitable to credit the average voter with.

I've seen some in Kerry's camp describe him as a real "alpha-male" while Bush just gets to play one on TV.

The comment was so idiotic that I disliked Kerry for what his handler said but frankly I think such soundbites are what will drive this election.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 07:30 pm
Yeah. "Bring it on!" seems to be doing pretty well so far, as soundbites go.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 07:41 pm
Yep, this is why I think people should realize that much of what they consider a political liability plays well to Joe Public.

A comment like that actually goes over well in America.

I think it daft but such is life.

IMO Kerry not only can but will do the best in the penis comparisons that have become American politics.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 07:58 pm
I think so too Craven.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 01:35 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Odd that you think Kerry is less electable than Edwards, Clark and Gephardt nimh.

To be honest this is the first time I'd say you sounded completely clueless about America.


It is, however, not the first time that you sound both bluntly arrogant and rashly dismissive <big grin>

Perhaps I should point out one thing. The Dutch media do NOT report on this - or hardly. Well, sure, they got the main two or three moments thus far frontpaged. Otherwise hardly any analysis yet. Nobody's much interested except for being ABB.

So ALL of my perspective is derived from US media. I am not the only one here who fears Kerry wont make it. Yes, he's made the "safest" impression thus far. Yes, Dean would have been a dangerous gamble. But I got a sizeable enough chunk of the pundits crowd behind me in fretting that Kerry is just too weak, and too easy for Bush to shoot holes in, to make it against him in the final campaign. "Somebody - just shoot me", one of them sighed when it became clear that they had to go cover Kerry as the main story for the next few months.

Now you may personally disagree, but playing the "you're a foreigner, you dont understand" card here is just inane, considering. I mean, by all means, dont go on what I say, go on the links I provide (all American). And here's a few more, each making the case on Kerry's deficient chances against Bush. Regardless of whether you think they're any good, they should serve to delete that lazy 'incomprehending foreigner' argument bit.

Slate - kausfiles
(every day a different oh-no-not-Kerry headline - today, it's "Why the Long Face? Kerry caught in damage-control lie.")

Quote:
the Kerry botox story is not a frivolous bit of gossip but a perfectly legitimate synecdoche for this type of Kerry behavior. There is a phony, clean facade, and the reality behind the phony facade. ...

[..] This character problem is not "aloofness." Aloofness is what people who don't want to acknowledge Kerry's character problem say is Kerry's character problem.


Jack Beatty in The Atlantic

Quote:
How, we wondered aloud driving home, could a man in public life for decades, running for President for more than a year, not do better than this? [..] Why, above all, is he still running on his résumé? We know he's qualified to be President; his job as a candidate is to make us want


TNR: Jon Keller and Dan Kennedy debate John Kerry

Let me start by quoting Kennedy - the guy defending Kerry in the debate:

Quote:
I'd be the first to concede that Kerry is not the [ideal] candidate [..] the man himself remains an enigma. He is reserved and formal, which is another way of saying that he's aloof. His lugubrious, rococo speaking style is, at best, an acquired taste. He doesn't suck up to reporters, which means that many of them hate him. And he has a long record in the Senate of voting for liberal causes, a record that Karl Rove and company are already putting to good use. [..] if Kerry has acquired The Touch, it remains intermittent. [..] The man has a tin ear, and I doubt that's going to change.

[..] Of course, defeating an incumbent president is an entirely different proposition from defending a Senate seat. In the weeks and months ahead, Kerry's going to be put through the meat-grinder, as he's asked questions about everything from his seemingly contradictory votes on the Gulf war (against) and the war in Iraq (for) to the Great Cheez Whiz Scandal of 2003 (while campaigning in Philadelphia, he asked for--gasp!--Swiss cheese on his hoagie rather than the locally acceptable Cheez Whiz). But [..] if George Bush gives him an opening, he'll take it.


That's the guy defending Kerry's chances. Here's his opponent:

Quote:
[Y]es, the party could do a lot worse. Al Sharpton is still available, isn't he?

But if this is truly the best the Democrats can do to challenge a wildly overspending, special-interest-pandering, inarticulate saber-rattler, then it's a pathetic comment on the party's isolation and shallowness. [..]

Last summer, in separate interviews I asked three of Kerry's peers--Congressmen Ed Markey, Marty Meehan, and Mike Capuano--to name three specific things Kerry had done for Massachusetts. None of them could do it. Just today I asked the same question of a Massachusetts state representative who is Kerry's biggest legislative supporter. He drew a blank too. [..]

Of course, this election isn't about nominating a new Captain Kangaroo. Dan, you argue that while Kerry may well be an aloof jerk, an entitled swell who lacks the manners to eat a campaign cheese steak the way his host makes it, he is "centered." So is a man straddling a fence, but what good does he do anybody? TNR has already documented some of Kerry's more spectacular waffles: the 1991 questioning of affirmative action dogma, followed immediately by hasty retreat in the face of liberal censure; the 1998 education-reform broadsides, quickly abandoned in the face of teacher-union heat. [..]

The point is John Kerry's political career has often evoked some of his generation's less-inspirational traits, such as ambivalence, expedience, and narcissism, facts Democrats should ponder before giving him the keys to the car. And it's his public, political behavior that ought to be under scrutiny right now, not silly sideshows like his alleged Botox use. [..] the real question about Kerry for Democrats and, if his roll continues, for those independents and Republicans who are also dismayed by the incumbent's glaring weaknesses is this: Does he have what it takes to make tough calls on the domestic and foreign-policy issues that really matter? [..] And the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that John Kerry is a reflexive dissembler.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 04:55 pm
I do think there is something to be said for immersion vs. reading about it (though you've found lots of thought-provoking stuff, which I appreciate.) Intellectual vs. visceral. Part of my impressions of how Kerry would play here are things like what I see on magazine covers, local newspapers' front pages, the way a usually fairly conservative friend says, "Bring it on!" and how the mixed political gathering reacts to it, that sort of thing. The analysis is good, makes sense, is not purely intellectual (the stuff about his speaking style, for example, and the danger of being another Democratic bore) but I do think that all of that is seperate from what the people who don't read this stuff think, and there are a lot of them. REALLY a lot of them.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 06:49 am
Lookit, there is a fundamental flaw in this argument, which is why I called it inane.

Each of the people I've quoted are AMERICANS, and they are as "immersed" in the local scene as you or Craven is. Hell, those two TNR debaters? Bostonian journalists. If *they* are not immersed in how their own senator comes across, in the mid- to long-term, to average Joes, then who is? They see the same magazine covers, local newspapers' front pages, hear the same street talk, yet all that immersion still doesnt make them share your or Craven's opinion on Kerry's electability any more. So that simply cant be it.

I would in fact, hazard quite an opposite guess. They have been following Kerry for quite a while, they've observed him interact with Mass. voters and fellow-politicians for years, they've witnessed how he eked out a victory against Weld in one of the most liberal states in the union. Now both Craven and you, on the other hand, have written here recently that you've really only kinda just started to look into this. You said he hasnt really ever been on your radar before, period. And Kerry sure does look good right now - look at the latest polls in which he does better against Bush than any of the other candidates. So if you go on the impression of this moment, yeh, sure.

But there is a certain "flavour of the month" element going on here. When Clark boosted upon the scene last fall? He did better than any of the other Dems against Bush in the polls, significantly so, in fact, and everybody was (perhaps prematurely) talking of his crossover appeal. Even Dean, incredibly, did at least as well as the others against Bush in the polls when he was riding high. The winner of the moment always looks good for the moment.

Kerry, once the front-runner, has been out of the main focus for a loong while, with all the critical media spotlight on Dean ("Dean, Dean, Dean ...", in Kerry's words Wink. Now, suddenly, Kerry jumped ahead of the pack, and has got the momentum. And with Democratic voters desperate to find, finally, the electable candidate they've been yearning for and hoping this one, at least, will be it - and with the other contenders, after the Iowa debacle for Dean and Gephardt, too afraid to launch anything that could be remotely seen as "negative campaigning" - Kerry is almost getting a free ride at the moment. But it wont always be so.

Again, when the Americans I've been quoting / reading write that Kerry just wont cut it, with the American audience at large, once the critical spotlight of media scrutiny and Rove propaganda does start hitting him, you may disagree, going on the impression he's been making right now. Yet thats what they're predicting - and that judgement is naught to do with me being the clueless foreigner or not being "immersed" enough.
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Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 08:25 am
I think it's interesting that before the Iowa Caucuses, Kerry was on no one's radar screen. Dean was being presented as the unquestionable front runner...the next president of the united statres. I think the voters in Iowa and New Hampshire said, "The hell with the polls! We don't like Dean." Dean's major weakness is that he is brash and shoots from the hip. While that may be appealing to young voters, those of us with a little snow on the roof unfderstand that the Republicans will eat him alive.

Kerry has been around the block. He understnads that every word he says will be parsed and can be spun to his opponent's advantage. That's where I think you don't understand American politics, nimh. American's are lazy voters. Most do not spend more than a few minutes finding out about the candidates. The depend on political ads that are deceptive, manipulative and neatly packaged.
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