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Bad News for the A2K Anti-Spanking Lobby

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 05:15 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Can you point out anyone who's been absolutist on this thread?


No, I was just making a comment on the possible use of anecdotal evidence.

I agree that spanking is sub-optimal. Getting into a fight with someone - as a child or an adult - is also sub-optimal. Sometimes, though, the sub-0ptimal choice is the correct one to make in a certain situation.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 05:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I agree that spanking is sub-optimal.
For exactly the same reasons that abortion is considered sub-optimal by almost all you will find no disagreement that spanking is sub-optimal....the question on the table though is "is it wrong?".
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 05:19 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Can you point out anyone who's been absolutist on this thread?

Otherwise, ya'll are arguing with yourselves.

I'm probably the closest you'll come to an absolutist, and my argument isn't that "all instances of [spanking] are negative or damaging." I merely argue that spanking is a sub-optimal discipline technique.


which is what the research results offer
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 05:27 pm
@DrewDad,
Oh please, read through the thread
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:14 pm
It seems pretty obvious to me that the pro-spankers are people who have assaulted a kid in the past and are trying to justify it and the anti-spankers just think that assaulting kids is disgusting.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Who did that?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:27 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Who did that?
There are 185 posts in this thread so you will need to look yourself...I remember that the Cub fan was one, but I think there are at least 2 others...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:50 pm
@hawkeye10,

Quote:
I agree that spanking is sub-optimal.
hawkeye10 wrote:
For exactly the same reasons that abortion is considered sub-optimal by almost all you will find no disagreement that spanking is sub-optimal....the question on the table though is "is it wrong?".
MOST of the time it is morally rong
to assault & batter someone; not always.





David
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:52 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It seems pretty obvious to me that the pro-spankers are people who have assaulted a kid in the past and are trying to justify it and the anti-spankers just think that assaulting kids is disgusting.


I've never spanked a kid, and I should add that I don't consider spanking to be an assault.

Cycloptichorn
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 06:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
spendius wrote:
It seems pretty obvious to me that the pro-spankers are people who have assaulted a kid in the past and are trying to justify it and the anti-spankers just think that assaulting kids is disgusting.
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I've never spanked a kid, and I should add that I don't consider spanking to be an assault.
Cycloptichorn
A tortious assault is putting a man (referring to the species of homo sapiens sapiens) into fear of an imminent battery.





David
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  4  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:04 pm
I equate spanking with beating because that was done to me and several of my friends. Recently many people watched a video of a Texas judge whip his daughter and call it discipline, both parents were angry and out of control. I've never known anyone who was spanked who said thank-you. Most kids I know couldn't sit down for a few hours or days. I've never known anyone who was spanked by an in control parent and like Finn's story, normally it was random and unexpected.
I don't equate a cuff up the backside of the head as spanking, nor do I consider a slap spanking. However if you did it to your wife, girlfriend or a stranger it would be considered assault. Children are fair game apparently.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:14 pm
@spendius,
First time ever : You're being an utter ass spendius.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:22 pm
@Ceili,
Then you and your friends were beaten, not spanked.

Obviously beaters can try and hide their sins under the umbrella of spanking, but that doesn't mean that spanking is beating.

When my father knocked me off my chair with a full fisted blow, it wasn't spanking and I know he didn't try and say it was.

I'm sure that if I cuffed someone the way I cuffed my kids I would be in for a fight, but not an assault charge that could stick. Smacking a women on the ass has a sexual context that doesn't exist with children.

In any case, I'm not responsible for male and female adults throughout the world. They don't live with me and they are not subject to my rules. Comparing spanking your kid to spanking an adult stranger is ridiculous.

Ceili
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I'm not sure why my comparison is ridiculous to you?? Apparently that's your word of the day. In fact I wasn't commenting on your post alone. However, if you or anyone slapped a stranger it would be considered assault. If, other than at a S&M club, you or anyone were to spank a person with your hand, a belt or a spoon, it would be considered an assault. I'm not sure why anyone would think any differently when hitting a child.
The point I'm making is, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors. You and everyone that "spanks" a child are not on even turf. Your spank may be a light grazing of the ass checks, then there are the Hawkeyes of the world who think taking a belt to a small child is the same thing. It's not.
It's illegal in most countries jails, including the US, unless you count gitmo, to whip someone, why should children be set aside for this extra special consideration? We don't torture or beat prisoners but children are fair game... You can no more speak for the spankers of this world than I can. However, as I've said, I've never met a kid who got spanked who deserved it or their parents wrath.
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:48 pm
I wasn’t spanked as a child and look how sweet I turned out Wink

Marco disciplines his son and I’m happy he doesn’t spank. I wouldn’t ever consider hitting my own dogs let alone a child.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you will find no disagreement that spanking is sub-optimal....the question on the table though is "is it wrong?".

It depends what you mean by "wrong"? If you mean can it have long-term adverse effects, yes it can be "wrong". One of the most consistent adverse effects appears to be the increased risk of aggressive behavior in the child,

This article discusses a recent longitudinal study done at Tulane University in 2010 which followed almost 2500 children over a period of seven years, and controlled for the confounding variables which had been found in some previous studies. Each child was evaluated at age 3 and again at age 5. Frequent use of spanking by the mother (more than twice in a month) at age 3 was associated with a higher level of aggression in that child at age 5. The results suggest that even minor forms of corporal punishment, such as spanking, increase the risk for increased child aggressive behavior. This study controlled for the efforts of other factors known to increase aggression in the child, and the finding of increased aggression due to spanking was statistically significant.
Quote:
Monday, May. 03, 2010
The Long-Term Effects of Spanking
By Alice Park

Disciplining young children is what parents are supposed to do — most moms and dads have no trouble agreeing with that. But should the punishment include spanking?

As many parents can attest, few disciplinary measures stop a child from misbehaving as quickly as a swift smack or two on the bottom.

But in a new study published in Pediatrics, researchers at Tulane University provide the strongest evidence yet that children's short-term response to spanking may make them act out more in the long run. Of the nearly 2,500 youngsters in the study, those who were spanked more frequently at age 3 were much more likely to be aggressive by age 5.

The study, led by community-health-sciences professor Catherine Taylor, was the first to control for a host of issues affecting the mother, such as depression, alcohol and drug use, spousal abuse and even whether she considered abortion while pregnant with the child. After controlling for all these factors — each of which can contribute to a child's aggression — spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior. "The odds of a child being more aggressive at age 5 increased by 50% if he had been spanked more than twice in the month before the study began," says Taylor.

The association remained even after her team accounted for varying levels of natural aggression in children, suggesting, she says, that "it's not just that children who are more aggressive are more likely to be spanked."

Among mothers surveyed in 20 cities when their children were both 3 and 5 years old, nearly half (45.6%) reported not spanking their 3-year-olds in the previous month, 27.9% reported spanking once or twice that month, and 26.5% reported spanking more than twice. As 5-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the nonspanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

The reason for this may be that spanking sets up a loop of bad behavior. Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn't mean they get why they shouldn't have been acting up in the first place. What's more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents' problems.

"There is now some nice hard data that can back up clinicians when they share their caution with parents against using corporal punishment," says Dr. Jayne Singer, clinical director of the child and parent program at Children's Hospital Boston, who was not involved with the Tulane study.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) does not endorse spanking under any circumstance. It's a form of punishment that becomes less effective with repeated use, according to the AAP; it also makes discipline more difficult as the child outgrows it.

Instead of spanking, the AAP recommends time-outs, which typically involve denying the child any interaction, positive or negative, for a specified period of time. These quiet moments force children to calm down and think about their emotions rather than acting on them reflexively. After all, the goal of punishment is to get children to understand not just that they did something wrong but also what motivated them to do it.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1983895,00.html

This is the reference for the study discussed above.
Pediatrics. 2010 May;125(5):e1057-65. Epub 2010 Apr 12.
Mothers' spanking of 3-year-old children and subsequent risk of children's aggressive behavior.
Catherine A. Taylor, PhD, MSW, MPHa, Jennifer A. Manganello, PhD, MPHb, Shawna J. Lee, PhD, MSW, MPPc, Janet C. Rice, PhD
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385647
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:00 pm
@Ceili,
I use "ridiculous" whenever I see the ridiculous, and in this thread, I've seen it a lot.

It's by no means a fact that if I cuffed someone the way I cuffed my kids that I would be found guilty of assault.

You're right that I can't speak for everyone who thinks they only spank their kids, and I'm not trying to. I am speaking for everyone who actually spanks their kids in the way I define spanking.

Your admission that you can't speak for anyone is clearly disingenuous as evidenced by your "However."

Presumably there are millions and millions of kids you haven't met and I'm damned sure you haven't met my kids.

Try climbing down from your high horse, the air is quite fresh down here.
Ceili
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You are one cantankerous condescending jerk aren't you..
The "however" was about a slap. If you, me or anyone slapped a kid or any other person outside of our respective families you could well be charged with assault. Is it different in your neck of the woods than say... most every other place in the world?
If you slap your kids it's all good though, right? It's not considered assault. I find that ridiculous. One is good parenting the other is assault, why the difference, why the hypocrisy? If a slap is good enough to teach a child a lesson, why not a secretary?
I have only your word that you hit like a girl, most men can pack quite a wallop. Put brute strength and anger up against a 7 year old, who comes out the loser?
The airs fine up here, I'd rather not muck around with the riff raff...
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:38 pm
@Ceili,
And you are one irascible bitch...so we're equal
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Good answer. Rolling Eyes
 

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