25
   

RACISM IN "WHITE" AMERICA

 
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 07:30 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
Thank you, love you.

Of course you wouldn't figure that, but it's true.

Go ahead, yell at me..
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:34 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
I don't like or dislike what you have to say bipo so **** you for being an antagonistic douche.

You shared with us a very personal aspect of your past life. Is this admirable or not? Who the hell knows?

If you did it to curry sympathy it's not very admirable. If you did it to make a point, it could be.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for folks who share their past lives and then get riled when they are asked questions about them.

Sounds like you had it very rough time which is truly a real shame, and it appears that you have come out the other side better than you went it, but don't expect boo hooing from us all.

I have my own sad stories to tell and I've been told by others that they are chilling, but I know they are nothing compared to the experiences of folks like BBB and edgar. This forum could easily become a "Can you top this?" pity
party, but what's the point in that?

Generally life sucks unless you take control of it and make it something better. It sounds like you have which is commendable, but there's no need to lash out when someone asks you a valid question.

You made a very specific point that everyone is a bigot when the lights are out. Presumably this includes you. Since you were willing to share your rough past perhaps you are willing to share your honest present.

I'm not looking for a fight (yours was the first " **** you"), but I am interested in what you wrote. Everyone is a bigot in the dark. If that's true, what it is your dark bigotry.

If you don't want to answer, that's fine...no **** you required.

I happen to think you are right and I acknowledge that in the dark I can, shamefully, be a bigot about blacks. I know that I don't allow this bigotry to seep out into my daily life in the light, but I conditioning is hard to fight. I was born in the 50's when blacks were colored or negroes, or quite often something far more offensive. My parents raised use as Stevenson liberals to not hate the negro, but not necessarily find him as exactly our equals.

This is the said legacy of that time. Even those who knew bigotry was wrong had a hard time tearing away from it on a day to day basis.

If younger, my parents may have marched in Selma, but they were just as nervous as anyone else when they were alone on a street with a black man.

In my opinion, all we can expect from good hearted people of my generation is that recognize when they are guilty of bigoted thoughts and that they strive to correct them.

Thanks to childhood conditioning, there's a part of me that fears Hell, while my adult mind rejects such a notion in its entirety. Unfortunately there remains a certain degree of childhood bigotry in my mind that I know is wrong, but can't fully extinguish.

So yes,in the darkness I have been a bigot,but as you suggest,who hasn't.

Fortunately those of us who experienced childhood conditioning need not pass it along to our children, and that's how the train will be stopped.




ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 08:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Good post.
0 Replies
 
NSFW (view)
snood
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:09 pm
Finn, I remember when Obama said that about his grandmom. And its no suprise to me that you and I look at the same set of facts; same quote - same context, and come to completely different conclusions. Macht nichts.

Anyhoo, I read what you wrote about you agree that everyone is a bigot when undercover of the dark, including yourself, but you don't allow your bigotry to seep into the light of day.

Heh. You ever hear of a saying that its a blessing to be able to see ourselves as others see us?



Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 05:37 am
Finn, you are a total asshole. BVT gives you a reasonable answer, and you go into attack mode. You're a tool.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:12 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
blueveinedthrobber wrote:

What about my post gave you the slightest idea I was asking for boo hooing or sympathy or that I was getting in your **** Finn?What the **** is your problem? I'm not crying about what I said, just stating my opinion based on anecdotal experience , and I stand by it so suck my dick and change your tampon.. Jesus Christ. Or, on second read, that I was lashing out at anyone? Seriously WTF?


Quote:
I've met my family responsibilities, what I please and **** you if you don't like it.[/quoute]
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:19 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Jesus, you are completely clueless.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 09:43 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Finn, I remember when Obama said that about his grandmom. And its no suprise to me that you and I look at the same set of facts; same quote - same context, and come to completely different conclusions. Macht nichts.

Not a surprise to me either.

Anyhoo, I read what you wrote about you agree that everyone is a bigot when undercover of the dark, including yourself, but you don't allow your bigotry to seep into the light of day.

Well if I gave you the impression that I agree that everyone is a bigot in the dark, then I was imprecise. I don't necessarily believe everyone is bigoted, but for a great many people in my generation or before there was a certain conditioning relative to "different" people. The extent of the conditioning varies. For me it is similar to the conditioning about hell. Intellectually I don't believe it, and it rarely enters my thoughts or influences my behavior, but occassionaly I think of it as a possibility. The same goes for my "bigotry."

Heh. You ever hear of a saying that its a blessing to be able to see ourselves as others see us?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here, but I'm not terribly concerned about how you see me snood. My post was a frank and honest expression of how I feel, and an indication that I agree that racisim continues to exist. I'm not sure it can ever be erradicated, but it certainly has been less accepted and institutionalized. For the most part, I think the younger generation are not subject to the sort of conditioning my generation was. This, obviously, is a good thing.



IRFRANK
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 11:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I thought your post was insightful and honest, Finn. I share most of your feelings. It is hard to shake some of one's conditionings, but those of us who try to think before we act are more successful at it. It doesn't take much thought to outright reject much of what I learned years ago. Even in the 'old' days it seemed stupid and wrong to be racist.

It's kind of the same here. It's so easy to interpert a post in the wrong way. Certainly we are all different, and that is one reason to share our experiences.

It's much worse in the media, where comments are taken out of context and twisted to mean the opposite of what the original statements were. Everyone has an agenda, and the truth is not part of it.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 12:02 pm
@IRFRANK,
Thanks Frank

While how I treat people is more important than an unjust thought coming to mind from time to time, I recognize those moments, and hopefully the accompanying mindfulness is working to rid me of them.

Writing about them in this forum is helpful as well.

0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 12:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

blueveinedthrobber wrote:

What about my post gave you the slightest idea I was asking for boo hooing or sympathy or that I was getting in your **** Finn?What the **** is your problem? I'm not crying about what I said, just stating my opinion based on anecdotal experience , and I stand by it so suck my dick and change your tampon.. Jesus Christ. Or, on second read, that I was lashing out at anyone? Seriously WTF?


Quote:
I've met my family responsibilities, what I please and **** you if you don't like it.[/quoute]


and somehow you decided that had something to do with you
personally....umm...okay.





























Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 12:49 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
Yes. The response was directed to me.

It would appear that I may have been mistaken.
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 12:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Yes. The response was directed to me.

It would appear that I may have been mistaken.


no **** genius. the response was directed to no one but described my attitude developed over years of personal experience.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 01:07 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
And you telling someone they should **** themselves or change their tampon or shove something up their ass has never happened, so how could I have made the mistake? Cool

I was mistaken, but I see no reason to apologize. It wasn't as clear as you seem to think.

You can drop it or you can keep it alive.

Your call
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 01:30 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

And you telling someone they should **** themselves or change their tampon or shove something up their ass has never happened, so how could I have made the mistake? Cool

I was mistaken, but I see no reason to apologize. It wasn't as clear as you seem to think.

You can drop it or you can keep it alive.

Your call


I have no desire to keep it alive. You've already admitted you were mistaken. I wouldn't expect you even while admitting it to apologize for it. You're a Republican. You go ahead and get in one final smarmy remark (or perhaps an holier than thou one) and that'll be it. You were wrong. We all know it. that's enough for me.
0 Replies
 
Pemerson
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 03:08 pm
Well, when I lived in Cleveland, O, during my single and working years with 3 other girls one room mate introduced me to a friend saying something about me being "a cute little hillbilly."

The flash of anger must have made my face red. I thought: "What are you talking about you dumb ****. Dallas is flat, don't you know that hillbillies live in the hills of Arkansas or West Virginia?"

Instead, I said "Nice to meet you," while thinking: "This dumb-as-dirt asshole doesn't even know he insulted me."

We don't always have to say what comes to our mind in a flash, sometimes a whole scenario along with it. Unless we have Tourette's Syndrome. I appreciate how so many black people can say so much in just a "look."
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 04:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I met my first African American man when he came to my parent's house in the California Bay Area in 1942 to get information about his war job problems from my father (my mother and father were my adopted parents.) I was 14 years old. When he arrived, he said he could speak to my father on the front steps (where I was able to listen to their conversation.) My father was ashamed because my racist mother would not allow a Black man in her house. For some reason, I got angry at the way the Black man was treated and always held it against my mother.

It made a difference when a few African-American students came into my nearly all white school. I became friends with a few. I made a close friendship with a Japanese girl and her family before they were moved into Japanese relocation camps, and I was heart broken.

The reason I'm telling this to you is to remind you that you don't have to let your parent's bad behavior also belong to you. To let them cause you to make wrong decisions denies you of questioning their validity. I've always tended to challenge my teachers and other adults, and had a "why" reputation. It served me well. I left my home before I graduated from high school when I was 16-1/2 because I would not let them hurt me anymore.

When you are posting on A2K, you are never forced to make racist comments. It's your option, I assume, to start a conflict. I rarely respond to conflict lovers and ignore them. For some reason, I've made an exception in your case. I wish you had met my Japanese friend and the African-American man who talked to my father on our front steps because my racist mother wouldn't let him in our house. I wish you had learned a different lesson than that being taught to you by your parents.

BBB
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 09:20 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Unfortunately you misinterpreted what I wrote. I suspect this is because we are, essentially, ideological opposites, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

My parents were far less racist then a lot of people back in their day. As I've described them here or perhaps elsewhere, they were Stevenson liberals.

There was never any overtly racist talk in our house while I was growing up, and they wouldn't tolerate any from us kids if we ever of a mind to utter any...which we weren't.

I grew up on Long Island which for as long as I lived there (I left in 1985) was heavily segregated. Blacks did not live in "White neighborhoods" and therefore their kids didn't go to school with white kids.

The only black kid I knew before the age of 13 was a kid named Gary who used to play sandlot sports with us when were around 7 or 8 years old. He was a very quiet kid and I can't say we were close, but we got along fine. I never thought of him as inferior to the rest of us, just very different.

We had a family on the block that wouldn't let their kids play with Gary, but I was pretty oblivious to what was going on. I don't recall any specific altercations but I imagine that the Lynch kids were somehow the reason why Gary eventually stopped coming around. Again, I never really gave it a lot of thought.

Keep in mind that most of the families in our neighborhood came to The Island from NYC, and there was a real sense of turf among the kids. Our block had dirt bomb fights with kids from other blocks, and if you rode your bike on other streets you were fair game for rocks.

I don't know where Gary lived, but it wasn't on our block. I don't know how he came to be a part of our games, he just showed up one day. Thinking back on it the kid had a lot of courage, and was clearly wanting for friends. I wish now that I had made more of an effort to get to know him, but I was a little kid and if another little kid seemed shy, I certainly didn't pick on him but I didn't try to get him to open up.

Again, I don't remember any incidents of a racial nature with Gary, other kids bullying him or calling him names. It certainly might have happened, but if it did I wasn't around. I'm assuming the Lynch kids scared him off because they were all punks and their parents were overtly racist, but for all I know he moved to another state.

That was it until I was 13 and entered Junior High, one black kid.

We had moved to a fairly affluent neighborhood that had an old section. Three families with Spanish names lived in that part of town. One family was clearly Hispanic and their parents spoke broken English, the other two would be described by anyone as black. I never figured out if somehow the Spanish surnames somehow exempted them from the unwritten LI rule, but they were clearly a minority and they had virtually no connection or interaction with the Hispanic kids.

I ran track with the oldest Hispanic boy and he was well thought of throughout the school. The other kids were unremarkable and nice enough, but we just didn't occupy the same cliques. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out they were treated poorly by some of the other kids, but, as with Gary, I never witnessed it.

The conditioning I've referred to didn't come so much from my parents as my society.

White kids knew that places like Amityville, Wyandanch, Riverhead, Copiague etc were "Black Neighborhoods," and none of us were welcome there. We never went there after dark and rarely in mid-day.

I have no reason to believe that this paranoia was justified, but it was the understood rule.

When I reached 12th grade I was part of a small group of students that arranged, through, and excellent teacher, to invite kids from Wyandanch HS to visit us in our school and engage in "rap sessions."

The fact that the black kids had to come to our White fortress actually spoke volumes but we were too pumped with righteous belief to notice.

The day was spent with about 20 black kids meeting with and talking to all of our Senior class.

I think it was a huge success, but, of course, it wasn't without its awkward moments.

This was 1971 and I fully suspect that Wyandanch sent its elite seniors. Their elite status need not have been predicated upon scholastic achievement, but they were all kids that were sharp and aware.

I clearly remember three specific sessions (as a member of the organizing group I participated in virtually all sessions):

In one group a fellow named Gary (ironically enough) warned us all that black kids, like his brother, were going to Vietnam and learning soldiers' skills, and when they came home there was bound to be hell to pay.

He was a very bright individual but he, obviously, had a teenager's romantic notion of things. He clearly enjoyed being the militant and a number of my white fellows took his bait. Nothing got out of hand, but it led to good discussions. It struck me that he was the same teenage asshole as any of us.

In another group a girl named Gwen (also bright and quite spirited [no, I don't mean "uppity"]) was asked why black girls didn't date white guys, while we all knew some black guys dated white girls.

She laughed and replied "Because y'all white boys are too afraid to ask us out."

The final memorable moment was when one very sweet young white girl suggested that what we really needed was a common enemy that would unite us all. "An invasion from Mars..." she suggested. Gary replied "Honey if the Martians invade it's every man for himself!"

The very happy experience of this project was that the white kids wanted to connect with the black kids and the black kids who probably had every right to be bitter wanted to too.

The sad experience was that it was only one day and I doubt that any white kid in my community was prepared to visit Wyandanch at night.

It was a start though and a good one, I think.

If you assume my confession to the occasional bigoted thought was an admission that I was anything like your mother, you are incorrect.

My unfortunate experience is that unless I have developed a relationship with a black person, I see them as "different." This is bigoted and I regret it but I know from where it comes. Not an excuse but an explanation. I still strive to, everyday, be color blind, but I confess I'm not there yet.

Thanks for your coaching, but I don't believe I need your specific advice.







0 Replies
 
snood
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 09:49 pm
Yeah, blind to color. There's your goal. Strive on, Finnmeister.
 

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