RACISM IN "WHITE" AMERICA

I don't know if I buy the whole idea that racism is something that's just a part of us as a species. I don't think of man as an animal, and I've seen too much evidence that children have to be taught to discriminate.

We are certainly animals. A highly developed animal, but an animal just the same. Cut someone off on the freeway and tell me otherwise. We are aggressive and protective. You can't explain road rage in a rational manner. I'm not an anthropologist, but it helps explain a lot of behavior to me. That doesn't mean we don't have a lot of learned behavior. We are very complex and it is hard to determine how much of an impact all the various factors have on our behavior. Look how much we like to compete. How popular sports are and how much people who have absolutely nothing to do with sports teams associate to with a particular team.

I'm not justifying the behavior, it can't be justified, but we are often not a thinking animal, but rather a reactive one.

If we pretend we are above our instincts, we will fall victim to them.

Our environment has changed drastically, we are not adjusting to it as quickly as it is changing.

Reply to my assertion that children have to be taught to discriminate by race, and how that meshes with your notion of racism being inbred.

I am saying that anger and distrust of someone in another 'group' comes from our early life in tribes or packs. We love to belong to groups. It is a form of protection, self preservation. Which group to hate or distrust is often certainly taught, by the members of our group. Race is an easily identifiable trait that allow us to identify other groups. Much like early tribes painted each other so they could tell each other apart. This mentality is not always based upon race.

I am saying that the basic motivation is self preservation. The actual behavior or specifics are learned. Don't you agree that we are quick to anger? That we are very competitive. Why do we dislike another race? Is it not often justified because we think they are getting some kind of advantage? Real or not.

It would be very difficult to verify your assertion that we are not born with these feelings. We are certainly taught which groups to hate, we are pack animals, we learn from the pack. Even if you could raise a child without the pack influences it would be difficult.

Is this the old argument of instinct or environment? It is clearly both. I am suggesting that the basic instinct to survive is part of the behavior.

I think some level of discriminating is in there when we choose which banana to pick. It's an observational trait followed by action.

Our choices may well be territorial.

Why are you arguing, as this will always happen.

Or not always, as we learn to play with others.

Are you intentionally not addressing what I said, or have you just missed that I've asked you twice:
I've seen evidence that children do not show discriminatory behavior unless and until they are taught to. How does that marry with your assertion that racism is something intrinsic to humans?

Exactly. Another point I tried to make is that much of this behavior comes from earlier times in our civilization when this behavior may have been relevant. Avoiding someone from another tribe may have been beneficial. I think our civilization could move beyond that today, but it is self sustaining in many ways.

Acting according to our instinctual motivations are not always the best today.

We aren't arguing, we are discussing.

This is the first assertion I've seen that children do not show discriminatory behavior without being taught. I'd like to learn more about that.

I didn't say racism, narrowly defined, was part of our intrinsic behavior. I said that protecting our own pack, tribe, group, or yes race, is intrinsic. My observation is that we are pack animals. Consider how many packs we all identify with, not necessarily by race. Don't take what I said as a justification for racism. I find it reprehensible. I'm just saying that joining a group and doing what the group does comes easily.

Why has it been so hard to stamp out racism? There is overwhelming evidence that it is not justifiable.

Another comment:

This is the first assertion I've seen that children do not show discriminatory behavior without being taught.

This may be true, but it is not the world we live in. We very quickly become members of a 'pack' and learn from the pack. Much of the the 'tribal knowledge' is based upon self preservation. Changing that supposed knowledge is very difficult. We don't like change, it is scary.

When I was a kid, I wanted to grow up to be Aretha Franklin. I loved singing, I loved her voice, her power, her range. It wasn't till someone pointed out that she was black that I understood I'd never be her. I don't think kids see colour till it's pointed out. Even after I realized I'd never be black I still didn't really see the difference. She just had a much better tan that I did, and being as white as I am, almost blue... I still thought I could follow in her footsteps.
I didn't grow up in the states. I grew up thinking mixed marriages were different religions, catholic and protestants. My Irish catholic family had been discriminated against for centuries because of religion, their last name, their schools, language, or their address. I was stunned when I first heard that people were discriminated because of colour. I remember watching Roots and being completely confused. Kids learn what their parents and community teaches them. Racism, hatred is learned. I know this first hand.

Yeah Ceili, I hear you.
All this talk about us being hardwired to group together and fear other groups justs strikes me as a little nuts.

Small children will bond with other children they like - irrespective of dark or light hues of skin color, kinky or straight hair; or anything else - they just like who they like. When they get old enough to start absorbing their parents fears and attitudes, they start modeling after that.

That makes sense to me.

I consider that people are territorial by nature. They fight wars, for instance, for the stupidest reasons, but being territorial helps explain it. Little children of mixed ethnicity playing together are part of a single group, so far as they know. They don't get separated into the grownups' groups until they grow and are taught where they supposedly belong.

Parts of Black America is still violently racist against whites and non blacks.

But cowardly racist "liberals" like Setanta cant see this elephant of racist violence in the living room because of their ideological blinders.

Do you not agree that we are very much 'pack' animals? Do we not instinctively group together? How many groups are you a member of?

Have you ever been to a sports event and experienced the feeling of dislike for the other team's players or fans? Why is that?

Many animals group into packs for survival. Wolves, lions, herd animals. Some others are very solitary. Owls for instance.

Which tendency do humans have?

I'm not passing judgement, just an observation.

I think that to come to a conclusion that is outside of the group norm takes courage and wisdom that many people don't have.

Hardwired may be too strong of a term. But the motivations are very strong to go along with the pack.

Yes, I agree. Expecting individuals to behave outside of their group norm is asking a lot. So how do we change the behavior of the group?

and how do they behave toward little children in other groups?

my education and experience tell me that there is going to be friction between groups. The groups can be based on all sorts of deemed similarities ... neighbourhood, religion, gender, income.

I'd like to believe in a "I'd like to teach the world to sing" kind of world, but reality keeps getting in the way.

Let me try it this way...
Two brothers, Caucasian twins , are given up for adoption as infants. One child is adopted by a young white couple that are highschool educated and working class adherents of skinhead/white supremacist philosophies. The other is adopted by a mixed race (let's say Black/Japanese) couple who are highly educated young people with a wide circle of multicultural friends and colleagues.

Do you think by the time these twins are preteenaged, they will have similar attitudes and behaviors toward people who don't look like them, or not?

And what does this say about the idea that we are taught how to be racist?

Absolutely not, they will not have similar attitudes. I did not say that racism in in us at birth. If my statements inferred that, they were poorly written.

The instinct to protect the group is part of who we are. That protection may take the form of deciding that an 'outsider' is a danger to the group.

What I meant to say was that the motivation to protect a group we are a part of is very strong, and is part of our intrinsic behavior. Yes, this group educates us and forms our opinions, good or bad.

In your example, if these two children met in school, they may in fact fight with each other, seeing the other as a threat to the famly they are in.

I would agree that we are taught to be racist. Our motivation to accept that teaching, rather than question it, comes from our need to belong.

If little kids are a group, how can there be other groups?