47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 12:05 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't think the Dems are cut from a different enough cloth to satisfy occupiers - I'm not aware of any schism on the 'left' (giggle) of US politics that equates to the teabag schism on the right.

By the by - apart from having tea party candidates elected what have they actually achieved? Not being sarcastic - but it appears (from the chat on this thread) they had more clearly articulated demands than the occupiers - what of their demands have been met? Apart from 'pay us some attention'.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 12:12 am
@Questioner,
More of the brilliant but paradoxical insights of an Occupy sympathizer that the orthodox simply fail to understand.

Questioner and I each throw our support to a hand picked candidate for congress. Mine wins, but ?er's does not. Because the majority of Americans don't think highly of congress as a whole, I am proven to be ineffective, while ?er is proven to be the opposite.

Now if you understand how it makes briliant political sense for Occupy to not have a coherent platform and not to provide suggestions on how to solve the problems they claim to have identified, then you probably also understand the logic of ?er's argument.

Only a few fringe cranks may campaign in 2012 as the embodiment of the Occupy philosophy, but none who do will win.

Since the likelihood of a second American revolution within the forseeable future is nil, elections remain the means to political power in this country. If a movement wishes to have political relevancy it must exert influence on elections.

The Tea Party has; Occupy has not and will not.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 12:31 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

I don't think the Dems are cut from a different enough cloth to satisfy occupiers - I'm not aware of any schism on the 'left' (giggle) of US politics that equates to the teabag schism on the right.

By the by - apart from having tea party candidates elected what have they actually achieved? Not being sarcastic - but it appears (from the chat on this thread) they had more clearly articulated demands than the occupiers - what of their demands have been met? Apart from 'pay us some attention'.


Out of curiosity, what do you think of when you see H20Man refer to the Occupiers as Occutards?

Knowing full well that referring to Tea Party members as Teabaggers is consider insulting by the former, I can only assume that you share the same sort of childish compulsion to irritate.

As for the achievement of TP candidates, if you listen to folks like Cyclo and Parados, they have prevented Obama from getting anything, at all, done. If this were true, and it is not, it would be an indication of quite remarkable political power.

Keep in mind, that TP aligned members of the House and Senate do not constitute a majority of Republicans serving in congress and that Democrats control the Senate. Expecting them, in a single year, to have moved mountains is ridiculous.

What they have achieved is to bring a much greater focus by congress on the finances of government than existed before.

They may have peaked in 2010 and may prove to be a flash in the political pan of the US, but if such is the case then even for a relatively short period of time their political influence will have dwarfed that of the Occupy movement.

Unless...we see Occupy candidates win in 2012.

What do you think the chances of that might be?

BTW - Occupiers are free to support 3rd Party candidates. If they do, then it will be an indication of their being less smart than Tea Partiers, but if they want to remain true to their revolutionary ideals and still attempt to work within the system (as opposed to indulging wet-dreams about revolution) they will consolidate their power and throw it in support of some candidates.



izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you think of when you see H20Man refer to the Occupiers as Occutards?

Knowing full well that referring to Tea Party members as Teabaggers is consider insulting by the former, I can only assume that you share the same sort of childish compulsion to irritate.


Well Mr. Soggy might want to write a couple of sentences instead of just cutting and pasting unfunny cartoons. Even people on the same side of the political divide think he's an annoying twat. You can't debate with him, he is probably the stupidest person on A2K. I really do think that Finn.
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 06:12 am
@Finn dAbuzz,

Sorry about the teabagger thing, it actually means **** to me, teabag, teaparty - different cultural context - not intentional in the least.

Quote:
Unless...we see Occupy candidates win in 2012.


That's my point - I don't think there will be any occupy candidates.

Quote:
What they have achieved is to bring a much greater focus by congress on the finances of government than existed before.


But to what end - seems there's even less chance of a bilateral consensus on how to address it (who would have thought that was possible)

Quote:
Occupiers are free to support 3rd Party candidates. If they do, then it will be an indication of their being less smart than Tea Partiers, but if they want to remain true to their revolutionary ideals and still attempt to work within the system


You are still the king of the mindless generalisation hey finn?

Clearly all are dumb, clearly they all have revolutionary ideals. There were no genuine americans who thought 'something has gone horribly wrong and we don't have the electoral power of big business'. What's your american dream?

hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 06:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Out of curiosity, what do you think of when you see H20Man refer to the Occupiers as Occutards?


It's H20Man FFS - cardboard cutouts don't interest me. No matter how soggy they are.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 09:57 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

More of the brilliant but paradoxical insights of an Occupy sympathizer that the orthodox simply fail to understand.

Questioner and I each throw our support to a hand picked candidate for congress. Mine wins, but ?er's does not. Because the majority of Americans don't think highly of congress as a whole, I am proven to be ineffective, while ?er is proven to be the opposite.

Now if you understand how it makes briliant political sense for Occupy to not have a coherent platform and not to provide suggestions on how to solve the problems they claim to have identified, then you probably also understand the logic of ?er's argument.

Only a few fringe cranks may campaign in 2012 as the embodiment of the Occupy philosophy, but none who do will win.

Since the likelihood of a second American revolution within the forseeable future is nil, elections remain the means to political power in this country. If a movement wishes to have political relevancy it must exert influence on elections.

The Tea Party has; Occupy has not and will not.



I agree with the majority of that, though I'm actually not a huge occupy supporter. I do believe that their message (once they finally settled on what the hell it was) is one I partially share.

Yes, the TeaParty managed something great. Which only furthers my concern that the republicans and others that voted them into office are little more than an unthinking rabble to be pushed this way and that by GOP media and frenzied flag waving.

The current lineup of GOP candidates supports that concern as well.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 11:46 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:



Profit is good.

Occutards are not good.
Profit does not fall from the sky like Manna... One man's gain is a loss to another, and the gain of a few is a loss to the whole nation... Let me ask you: Can they defend alone the wealth they have gathered unto themselves without the help of the very people they have taken it from??? The OWS will not fix the problem, because they are powerless to do more than point to it...It is the retarded tea party, in the interest of preserving its wealth from the government which will likely destroy the ability of the government to defend any wealth, and leave it struggling to defend even it power from the people... The OWS are constructive... The tea party is destructive, and as much as I hate the power behind the placards, and the obvious manipulation of the government by the rich through the tea party, it is the tea party which must succeed for the OWS to see any progress... The society is too late to resuscitate... The rich can kill their body guard...The OWS should let them...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 11:50 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

You know I bet the depraved aristocrats in the time before the French Revolution thought they keep getting away with starving the people and telling them to eat cake, right up until the time they got their heads cut off.

I am not advocating any at all similar along these lines, but I do think it is time that people quit being gulled by politicians and the corporate world into thinking "profits good" even if it means that people have to work for less money or not work at all.
Why not??? They are handing America the axe, and laying their own heads on the chopping block...It is better that a few of those jackassess should die than for them to sink the ship and take us down with them...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 11:51 am
@Fido,
The government has to take on much of the blame, because they're the ones who vote to cut taxes for the wealthy. They continue to play these stupid political games while our country goes to pot. They can't make the important decisions on social security, Medicare, immigration, and taxes; hopeless.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 03:42 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Well Mr. Soggy might want to write a couple of sentences instead of just cutting and pasting unfunny cartoons. Even people on the same side of the political divide think he's an annoying twat. You can't debate with him, he is probably the stupidest person on A2K. I really do think that Finn.


I'm sure you do.

My point, however, is that it's quite hypocritical to criticize H2OMan's childish insults if you insist upon using them yourself.

If the use of "teabagger" ever was clever, it is no more, and is now employed simply to irritate. Says something about the user.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:01 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
. One man's gain is a loss to another, and the gain of a few is a loss to the whole nation...


Yes--but concentrating wealth allows investment to be made in large enterprises which is to the profit of the majority which, if it had it all divided up, would blow it in the shops. And the investment can be made without officialdom being involved.

The alternative is the government deciding what to invest in. Which might or might not be for the best. Or not investing past profits at all.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:02 pm
@hingehead,
We agree...we won't see any Occupy candidates, and why do you think that is the case? No one could possibly measure up to their lofty ideals?

First one must obtain political power before one is judged on outcomes. If a movement has no political power it can't possibly effect political change. I appreciate your desire to demand miracles of the Tea Party, but no movement has achieved all of it's ends in a single year. How many have obtained political power in so short a time?

By and large, my generation (The Baby Boomers) have been less mindless than selfish. While I am by no means the only BB conservative, I have hardly been crowned king of my generation.

While I fault my generation (including myself) for helping to create a number of our current problems, at least we tilted at creatures that approximated dragons rather than windmills.

Today's revolutionaries are a pathetic lot who simply have bought the bullshit of their developmentally arrested, hippie parents and long to reproduce it.

And what rank do you hold hinge?

Lord of the cynical children of the affluent?

You flirt with anarchy as you probably flirted with heroin or cocaine.

My "American Dream" is to return to a time of limited government wherein personal achievement and responsibility determined one's lot in life. A time when those experiencing hard times were grateful for the generosity of their neighbors but never demanded it.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:08 pm
@Questioner,
Questioner wrote:

I agree with the majority of that, though I'm actually not a huge occupy supporter. I do believe that their message (once they finally settled on what the hell it was) is one I partially share.

Yes, the TeaParty managed something great. Which only furthers my concern that the republicans and others that voted them into office are little more than an unthinking rabble to be pushed this way and that by GOP media and frenzied flag waving.

The current lineup of GOP candidates supports that concern as well.



There are so many "messages" coming for Occupy, that it would be quite difficult to not find one which you could partially share..

Your concern is, quite frankly, irrational and indicates an extreme prejudice: American conservative who have joined the Tea Party and supported TP candidates are not intellectually capable of having reached that point through thoughful consideration. By your reckoning they must be manipulated rabble because how else could anyone reach a conclusion with which you disagree?

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:36 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Profit does not fall from the sky like Manna... One man's gain is a loss to another, and the gain of a few is a loss to the whole nation... Let me ask you: Can they defend alone the wealth they have gathered unto themselves without the help of the very people they have taken it from??? The OWS will not fix the problem, because they are powerless to do more than point to it...It is the retarded tea party, in the interest of preserving its wealth from the government which will likely destroy the ability of the government to defend any wealth, and leave it struggling to defend even it power from the people... The OWS are constructive... The tea party is destructive, and as much as I hate the power behind the placards, and the obvious manipulation of the government by the rich through the tea party, it is the tea party which must succeed for the OWS to see any progress... The society is too late to resuscitate... The rich can kill their body guard...The OWS should let them...
[/quote]

More pseudo-revolutionary drivel.

First of all you embrace a simplistic and false perception of wealth.

Clearly you have blocked your mind from appreciation that it is not a zero-sum game, because to do otherwise would upset your sanctimonious "principles."

One man's gain is not necessarily a loss to another unless theft is involved. I appreciate that you consider capitalism to be nothing more than theft but you are utterly ignorant in this regard.

Who lost when Bill Gates made his billions on Windows?

Who lost when Richard Branson made his billions on Virgin Airways?

Sometimes, however, one man's gain can be another man's loss without theft being involved.

For example, when the telephone was invented it probably resulted in quite a few messenger boys losing their jobs. When the automobile was invented, businesses fundamentally dependent upon beasts of burden lost their income.

The primary distinction is that when those who profited by the commercialization of telephones and combustion engines became rich, the number of jobs their commerce created greatly outnumbered those that were lost.

Although I would venture to guess that you are quite comfortable with being called a Progressive, you are, actually, much more of a conservative than me.

Without progress everyone who has a job today has a good chance of keeping it tomorrow. Unfortunately, you cannot restrain technological and economic progress without dooming your society to stagnation and death. Unless you were elected King of The World tomorrow, no matter how you retarded progress locally, you could not restrain it elsewhere. Once other societies embrace technological and economic progress, those that do not fall into the ash bin.

You seem to imagine a world wherein there are no losers and everyone is a winner. My kids imagined that world when they were adolescents, and it would be as nice a world as the one wherein no one got sick and everyone was happy.

My experience tells me that folks espousing your arguments have quite a different take on the natural world.

In the natural world, man should remain an observer and never interfere.

Save snail darters rather than bring water to a thirsty population.

Save spotted owls rather than provide a mean of living to thousands of humans.

Only Nat-Geo philistines give names to their animal subjects and heaven forefend they attempt to save a leopard cub from a pack of hyenas.

And yet when it come to humans, man, in the form of Government, should stick it's long nose in every human activity and attempt to determine who wins and who loses.



0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 04:54 pm
Let's get this right, Finn...

If I'm to believe your commentary, the Tea Party was a great success because they got people elected, and the Occupiers are a total failure because they aren't rushing off to back candidates? You characterize this as a childish desire for revolution as opposed to the more mature play-in-the-framework methods.

Hmmm.

Well, first off, your analysis of the Tea Party might be worth while if it was actually a ground-up organization that put politicians in. Rather, as we have seen, it was a very astroturf movement run by the very same people who put conservatives in elected positions, and big surprise, what radical thing did they want to do? The same **** the GOP has always wanted to do. It was a campaign movement from the start, it was not a movement that lead to a campaign. The Tea Party began and ended with a campaign. Yes, ended. Where are they? The real organizing force for them is gone, it got what it wanted: Conservatives in office. The whole thing was a fraud playing into the divisive fears of conservatives. You say that it got Americans talking about spending? If that is an ideological victory for you, then you can no less credit the occupiers for their one cultural dialogues. People are talking about equity and how the tax system is built to serve one class of citizen.

Furthermore, the whole shtick about how Occupiers not doing anything useful and that they should do other things to be heard--total crap. How can you tell a group of people that they'd be better heard by doing the same old thing? How can you suggest that voting and candidates are the way to be heard when the first time anyone gave a damn about what they think/feel/say was when they went to the parks?

I cannot lie to someone and tell them that they'd be better off doing what hasn't worked for them. You might, but then again, to you they are a nuisance, and so I hardly think you're offering advice for their benefit as much as yours.

A
R
T

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 05:08 pm
@failures art,
It's clear that you are heavily invested in Occupy.

You rush to their defense as if they were a litter of your pups.

This is getting tiresome so let's stipulate that:

You understand and appreciate how doing nothing is doing something.

I do not.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 05:20 pm
@failures art,
Art, Here's a description of the Tea Party in a nutshell by Wiki:
Quote:
Tea Party movement

Tea Party protesters fill the West Lawn of the U.S. Capitol and the National Mall at the Taxpayer March on Washington on September 12, 2009.
The Tea Party movement (TPM) is an American populist[1][2][3] political movement that is generally recognized as conservative and libertarian,[4] and has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009.[5][6][7] It endorses reduced government spending,[8][9] opposition to taxation in varying degrees,[9] reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit,[8] and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution.[10]
The name "Tea Party" is a reference to the Boston Tea Party, a protest by colonists who objected to a British tax on tea in 1773 and demonstrated by dumping British tea taken from docked ships into the harbor.[11] Some commentators have referred to the Tea in "Tea Party" as the backronym "Taxed Enough Already".[12][13]
The Tea Party movement has caucuses in the House of Representatives and the Senate of the United States.[14] The Tea Party movement has no central leadership, but is composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determine their own platforms and agendas. The Tea Party movement has been cited as an example of grassroots political activity, although it has also been cited as an example of astroturfing.[15]


Sounds similar to the OWS groups - almost verbatim; they demonstrated, they protested, and has no central leadership.

What was Finn's complaint again?
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 05:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
One of us has been to the front lines of these current events. My proximity to those in the park and first hand experience talking to them versus your armchair quarterbacking, any day.

They aren't doing "nothing." You are. You're a critic from afar with a wealth of insincere advice on what they should be doing instead.

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Dec, 2011 05:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Except there was quite a deal of centralized leadership. More of regional stovepiping, but far from headless.

A
R
T
 

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