Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
I am simply using the same logic that many on the left use against the tea party.

I'm confused: Do you, or don't you, approve of the logic that you think many on the left are using? If you're approving, what's your problem with "many on the left"? If you're not, why use their bad logic rather than good logic of your own? Why not underpin your conclusions with the best logic you can muster?

Nothing rhetorically wrong with illustrating the illogic or hypocrisy of the other side simply by applying their reasoning or argumentative techniques to something else, and thereby illustrating either an absurdity or the hypocritical inconsistency of one's rhetorical opponent. It is a time-honored technique. That's all MM was doing. I think you know that your patronising reply was merely an empty device.

Protagonists of the left here have gone to great lengths to find examples of supposed racism among tea party advocates, while ignoring equivalent racism among the leaders of the progressive thought plantation (who pillory any conservative black spokesmen for betraying the "black experience"), and the occasional violence and anti social behavior of members of the "occupy" protests.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

Nothing rhetorically wrong with illustrating the illogic or hypocrisy of the other side simply by applying their reasoning or argumentative techniques to something else, and thereby illustrating either an absurdity or the hypocritical inconsistency of one's rhetorical opponent. It is a time-honored technique.

OW.. OW..

The irony hurts....

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@georgeob1,

I can see somewhat where you are coming from not that I agree that it is logical but it is a reason none the less.
I notice that the Tea party in Germany is coming along in working out the bank bail out problems. I was surprised that the Tea party has grown world wide!

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Does democracy mean hypocrisy in the USA?

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Quote:

Occupy Oakland gets evicted
(United Press International, November 12, 2011)

Police entered the Occupy Oakland tent city and handed out formal eviction notices after a man was shot to death on the edge of the California encampment.

The notices, which came Friday night, order protesters to remove all tents, tarps and cooking equipment from Frank H. Ogawa Plaza or face arrest, the Los Angeles Times reported.

The notices, however, do not set a deadline for demonstrators to leave.

"Please, we ask you: Leave Frank Ogawa Plaza peacefully and immediately so Oakland Police can get back to work fighting the devastating crime that's occurring in our neighborhoods," the Oakland Police Officers Association said in the statement issued earlier Friday. "You have sent the world a strong message; now it is time to go home."

The eviction comes in light of violence at the encampment that started Oct. 25 when police moved in to take down the camp set up nearly a month ago.

Mayor Jean Quan allowed protesters to rebuild the camp in an attempt to calm protesters, yet many remained angry with her administration, and business leaders and the police union were upset Quan allowed the camp to continue.

Then, a man was shot at the camp Thursday.

Quan asked protesters to leave the plaza voluntarily after the incident.

"The risks here are too great," she said in a statement released on the city's Web site. "It's time for the encampment to end."

Protester Laura Long said she expects core members of the group to stay as long as possible.

"We're there for a reason," she said. "After the shooting, we were sure the city would use that as an excuse to kick us out."

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

"We're there for a reason," she said. "After the shooting, we were sure the city would use that as an excuse to kick us out."

From what I understand the shooting was not related to the camp but was from a group of people next to the camp where other young people hang out even when there is no camp!
This shooting and other crimes not related to the camps are blamed on these camps because they say the police are not able to patrol other areas.
There are so many police that are there for crowd control at a peaceful protest. I wonder why they do not have crowed control like that at mega churches.

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Occupy Oakland gets evicted
(United Press International, November 12, 2011)

"Please, we ask you to leave""

That's a pretty sternly worded eviction notice, alright.

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These people look like they are having allot of fun. I do not speak their language but I like their music!

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Have any of you been checking out what has been going on in Portland Oregon?

Here is a live stream!

http://www.livestream.com/occupyptown

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http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showi

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

He has no idea of how he sound to some who has actually studied the field of humanity that he is speaking of!

If you liked that, "you will love this!

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

He has no idea of how he sound to some who has actually studied the field of humanity that he is speaking of!

My impression from the video was that the speaker does indeed have a very good understanding of both the evolutiuon of modern economies and the human nature of those who operate ithem.

Are you one of those who "has actually studied the field of humanity"? In what way is your understanding different?

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@georgeob1,

Believing in lies is psychological { meaning normal} It is easy to see this natural phenomenon around the world. People believe in all kinds of Gods, religions, aliens, superstitions, so on and so on. certainly they can not all be correct.

We can talk about how others believe in things to be facts but yet you can see that they are obviously wrong when you have an understanding of the subject being discussed.

When it comes to our own beliefs we have confirmation biases standing in our way which makes us the same as those other people believing in lies.

If you truly would like to have different view points to challenge on this issue then at least listen to some of the professor's lectures on YouTube that teach these subjects then come to your own conclusion about the truth!

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

All of the stuff you wrote about belief is fairly elementary and obvious. I suspect that Finn understands it very well.

The ideas put forth in the opinion piece that Finn posted are well known and widely uinderstood. They are, of course opinions, and they don't attenpt to explain everything about current popular attitudes towards our economic and social systems. However, they do address important elements. That we in this country now live in a world of much greater general prosperity than either those who preceeded us here, or most people in today's world is beyond doubt. That many goods and services we (and many of the protesters) take for granted in our daily lives are produced by some of the very corporations they so avidly decry is also beyond doubt. The rest is, of course, opinion, based on his value judgments. You may hold different opinions about the protests, but that too is based on your value judgments.

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@georgeob1,

There are many things about it that are not opinions but rather stereotyping among many other issues but like I said we believe in many things that are not true and we seldom confront our biases.

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@reasoning logic,

I believe the author was expressing an opinion about some essential characteristics of the occupy movement, but not attempting to describe it completely. It was clear from his remarks that he was expressing opinions and value judgments about an important part of the apparent motivation of many of the protestors, and that what he said is probably true in enough cases to warrant consideration.

Any attempt to generalize about anything involves things you could call "stereotyping". That however, doesn't make them either false or fallacious.

It seems to me that you are indulging in far greater and more vapid generalizations than those of which you accuse the speaker.

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@georgeob1,

It is when people do not {try} to give a balanced view about an event that gets believers believing in nonsense!

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@reasoning logic,

Sounds like you are resorting to a tautology here. i.e. nonsense implies an unbalanced view and and expression of opinion not "balanced" induces nonsensical beliefs.

Unfortunately your own statement lacks balance, in that you have presented no alternatives or even qualifiers. Perhaps it is nonsensical too.

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@georgeob1,

Zucotti park (Liberty square) is currently being torn down and trucked away.

Access to the area is being limited or stopped completely.

Press are being denied access as well.

CBS live feed from the helicopter has been blocked somehow.

Interesting times in the land of the free.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/nyregion/police-begin-clearing-zuccotti-park-of-protesters.html?_r=1&hp

1 Reply

@Builder,

<our country is getting lost in the maze of people who run our governments, but fails to understand our constitution.

1 Reply

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

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