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Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2011 01:13 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
I wonder why some people are claiming that the demonstrators don't have a central message when during the past 30-years the middle class are the ones who created most of the wealth, but didn't benefit like the CEO's and officers of companies who now earn 400-times the average worker at the same company.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2011 05:09 pm
Apologies in advance but I've had this bad pun in my head for days and this is the only way to expunge it.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SOnkErwUrb8/TrMeP3c-QiI/AAAAAAAAAoU/e537mEe2tZs/s800/Octopi-Wall-Street.jpg
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 07:33 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Some new taxes will indeed be required to solve our combined high public debt and slow growth problem. Significant reforms of entitlement programs to reduce future obligations will also be required. In dollar terms the latter are much the larger.


I agree some new taxes will indeed be required. I also agree entitlement reform (I assume we are talking of SS and medicaid and medicare) will be required in order to protect SS and the rest of the entitlements for future recipients. Now if only the GOP will listen instead of sticking to that crazy pledge.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 01:26 pm
@revelette,
Congressional Republicans have already indicated their willingness to entertain new taxes as part of an overall solution. It would help if the Administratiuon wasn't so actively presenting itself as the last and only defender of entitlement programs that they deceitfully allege their opponents wish to take from them. The fact is both parties know that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are clearly not sustainable in their present form as a result of huge changes in cost factors and the demographics of our population since they were enacted, and that resisting reform now is the surest way to destrroy these programs (and our economy).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 01:49 pm
@revelette,
Those are obvious consequnces of not doing anything with social zsecurity and medicade; and most understand those programs cannot sustained itself t curent levels of benefits.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 03:10 pm
http://images1.dailykos.com/i/user/310373/813.png

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Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 04:22 pm
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/mike-bloombergs-marie-antoinette-moment-20111103#ixzz1cmILMcK5

A must-read by Taibbi

Quote:
This whole notion that the financial crisis was caused by government attempts to create an "ownership society" and make mortgages more available to low-income (and particularly minority) borrowers has been pushed for some time by dingbats like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who often point to laws like the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act as signature events in the crash drama.

But Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are at least dumb enough that it is theoretically possible that they actually believe the crash was caused by the CRA, Barney Frank, and Fannie and Freddie.

On the other hand, nobody who actually understands anything about banking, or has spent more than ten minutes inside a Wall Street office, believes any of that crap. In the financial world, the fairy tales about the CRA causing the crash inspire a sort of chuckling bemusement, as though they were tribal bugaboos explaining bad rainfall or an outbreak of hoof-and-mouth, ghost stories and legends good for scaring the masses.

But nobody actually believes them. Did government efforts to ease lending standards put a lot of iffy borrowers into homes? Absolutely. Were there a lot of people who wouldn’t have gotten homes twenty or thirty years ago who are now in foreclosure thanks to government efforts to make mortgages more available? Sure – no question.

But did any of that have anything at all to do with the explosion of subprime home lending that caused the gigantic speculative bubble of the mid-2000s, or the crash that followed?

Not even slightly. The whole premise is preposterous. And Mike Bloomberg knows it.

In order for this vision of history to be true, one would have to imagine that all of these banks were dragged, kicking and screaming, to the altar of home lending, forced against their will to create huge volumes of home loans for unqualified borrowers.

In fact, just the opposite was true. This was an orgiastic stampede of lending, undertaken with something very like bloodlust. Far from being dragged into poor neighborhoods and forced to give out home loans to jobless black folk, companies like Countrywide and New Century charged into suburbs and exurbs from coast to coast with the enthusiasm of Rwandan machete mobs, looking to create as many loans as they could.

They lent to anyone with a pulse and they didn’t need Barney Frank to give them a push. This was not social policy. This was greed. They created those loans not because they had to, but because it was profitable. Enormously, gigantically profitable -- profitable enough to create huge fortunes out of thin air, with a speed never seen before in Wall Street's history.

The typical money-machine cycle of subprime lending took place without any real government involvement. Bank A (let’s say it’s Goldman, Sachs) lends criminal enterprise B (let’s say it’s Countrywide) a billion dollars. Countrywide then goes out and creates a billion dollars of shoddy home loans, committing any and all kinds of fraud along the way in an effort to produce as many loans as quickly as possible, very often putting people who shouldn’t have gotten homes into homes, faking their income levels, their credit scores, etc.

Goldman then buys back those loans from Countrywide, places them in an offshore trust, and chops them up into securities. Here they use fancy math to turn a billion dollars of subprime junk into different types of securities, some of them AAA-rated, some of them junk-rated, etc. They then go out on the open market and sell those securities to various big customers – pension funds, foreign trade unions, hedge funds, and so on.

The whole game was based on one new innovation: the derivative instruments like CDOs that allowed them to take junk-rated home loans and turn them into AAA-rated instruments. It was not Barney Frank who made it possible for Goldman, Sachs to sell the home loan of an occasionally-employed janitor in Oakland or Detroit as something just as safe as, and more profitable than, a United States Treasury Bill. This was something they cooked up entirely by themselves and developed solely with the aim of making more money.

The government’s efforts to make home loans more available to people showed up in a few places in this whole tableau. For one thing, it made it easier for the Countrywides of the world to create their giant masses of loans. And secondly, the Fannies and Freddies of the world were big customers of the banks, buying up mortgage-backed securities in bulk along with the rest of the suckers. Without a doubt, the bubble would not have been as big, or inflated as fast, without Fannie and Freddie.

But the bubble was overwhelmingly built around a single private-sector economic reality that had nothing to do with any of that: new financial instruments made it possible to sell crap loans as AAA-rated paper.

Fannie and Freddie had nothing to do with Merrill Lynch selling $16.5 billion worth of crap mortgage-backed securities to the Connecticut Carpenters Annuity Fund, the Mississippi Public Employees' Retirement System, the Connecticut Carpenters Pension Fund, and the Los Angeles County Employees Retirement Association. Citigroup and Deutsche Bank did not need to be pushed by Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi to sell hundreds of millions of dollars in crappy MBS to Allstate.

And Goldman, Sachs did not need Franklin Raines to urge it to sell $1.2 billion in designed-to-fail mortgage-backed instruments to two of the country’s largest corporate credit unions, which subsequently went bust and had to be swallowed up by the National Credit Union Administration.

These banks did not need to be dragged kicking and screaming to make the billions of dollars in profits from these and other similar selling-baby-powder-as-coke transactions. They did it for the money, and they did it because they did not give a **** who got hurt.



Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 05:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The article you pasted is very long on opinion but very short of comparative facts. The author cleverly acknowkedges some elements of the roles of government, Fannie & Freddy in feeding the expanding housing market bubble, while dismissing their contribution merely with some hand waving citing the excesses of private sector lenders and and NO comparative facts. Further he doesn't even consider the deliberate and sustained role of Fannie & Freddy in pumping cheap capital into an overheated mortgage market and the moral hazards that resulted from their mortgage purchases & securitization. The role of a government so boastful of its potential for "wise regulation and oversight" of error prone markets should not be one of consciously adding to their excesses, particularly when it is done for political purposes.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 05:23 pm
@georgeob1,
You should read some of the pieces he linked to in the article. You can find those links at the original source.

Quote:
Further he doesn't even consider the deliberate and sustained role of Fannie & Freddy in pumping cheap capital into an overheated mortgage market and the moral hazards that resulted from their mortgage purchases & securitization.


That's because what you describe is only tangential to the main problem - that a bunch of people who were essentially no better than crooks, found a loophole and exploited it to the maximum extent possible, fully knowing what they were doing and how much damage it was doing to people. You have never once condemned them for doing so - in fact, you have defended their actions, over and over, while blaming those who created the loophole. I don't have a response to that other than ones I've already given you.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 07:15 pm
another one doing the rounds of facebook

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/392751_10150906726415381_536320380_21428003_1661206369_n.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 07:29 pm
@hingehead,
Our economic system does not incentivize the right things...it has become malignant. It is good that people are finally starting to wake up to this reality.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2011 08:10 pm
another one that would mean more if I knew anything about her other than her name.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316059_10150512964079027_134951104026_11470596_1704311909_n.jpg
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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2011 10:22 pm


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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 05:58 pm
@failures art,
So now you're comparing the Occupiers to Christ?
reasoning logic
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 06:06 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Good comparison is it not?
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 10:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

So now you're comparing the Occupiers to Christ?

Does that bother you? Seems fair given the scripture. You seem to lack a sense of humor.

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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 10:30 pm
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/318360_265063136877579_100001216838118_942123_1641932092_n.jpg
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0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 09:51 pm
We are beginning to find out what the occupy people are really like...

http://www.portlandonline.com/police/pbnotify.cfm?action=ViewContent&content_id=2578

Quote:
The Occupy Portland General Assembly approved a declaration of "non-violence" toward people, however they rejected the "non-violence" proposal toward property, they rejected a proposal to abide by park rules, and they rejected a proposal to give police information prior to protesting.


So apparently, arson, vandalism, destroying private property, and theft are considered OK by the people of occupy Portland.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/05/occupy-wall-street-protester-throws-violent-fit-in-mcdonalds-when-denied-free/?test=latestnews

Quote:
NEW YORK -- An "Occupy Wall Street" protester threw a violent fit in a McDonald’s after employees refused to give him free food


So now it is becoming apparent that they think they are entitled to free food, and will get violent if they dont get it.

hingehead
 
  4  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 09:58 pm
@mysteryman,
You can be a bit of a simpleton can't you MM.

This how your brain appears to be working:

1. John Wayne Gacy was used to do charity work dressed as a clown.
2. He was convicted of murdering 33 people.
3. Charity workers and clowns are really like murderers.

Don't you ALL generalisations are ludicrous? Wink
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2011 10:02 pm
@hingehead,
I am simply using the same logic that many on the left use against the tea party.
There are a few racists and associated assholes in the tea party (or at least they claim to be), and the left paints all of the tea party people with that brush.
Many of them still call the tea party racisttoday.

So, if the left is using that argument, why cant it be used right back on them?
Not all of the left thinks that way, but enough of them do.
 

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