47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:00 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Far less than 99% are being screwed at the moment, but in taking all wealth unto themselves and leaving both the people and their government powerless and broke, they are asking to be relieved of their wealth and their right... With every single person laid off, and with every business shut down or exported, and with every house forclosed upon the political support that props up unlimited property rights falls... We like to think high profits are good, but the only way we can hold that belief is if they result in some tangible good, and we are seeing that good evaporate before our eyes... We are forced to reach the conclusion that if government will not govern the behavior of the rich that we will be governed by the ungoverned, by anarchy, and that it is the necessary and proper role of government to govern all the affairs and events that effect our lives negatively, or ask what good purpose does it wxist for... The people in the streets are doing only what the government should do for them: standing up for their rights..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:02 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

I dont feel sorry for these protesters at all.
They wanted to protest, here is their chance.

They have the right to protest, but I hope the owners of the fast food restaurants decide to not allow them access to the restrooms.
I hope that they do run out of their basic supplies, things like tents, sleeping bags, and shoes.

While I dont want any of them to get hurt or sick, I do want them to realize that their right to protest does not mean that we have to support them.

Let them survive a NYC winter with only what they brought with them, nothing more.
We should support them... If they have the right to be there, and if they are there in defense of the public, and on behalf of the public, then it should be a matter of public interest to provide them with sanitation facilities at the least... And for our own protection, naturally...
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:03 am
The Founding Fathers and Occupy Wall Street
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:05 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:



These Occutards are Obama's children - they are Obama's pawns.
He is at the mercy of his children, in that case... He cannot remove them without removing all of us... They stand for all of us, even you blindsided conservatards...
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:15 am
@revelette,
I have to admit, I find this persuasive.

I need to think on this some more.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:39 am
@revelette,
What's amazing to me is that anyone would need to have this explained to them. They must not do a very good job of teaching history in Amerian schools.
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:52 am
@Setanta,
I'm sure they did a fine job in my day. I just didn't happen to give a **** at the time. It's not something I'm proud of.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 08:57 am
@thack45,
Some of this would be a matter of detail--for example, the continent was first settled under the auspices of the Virginia Company, a crown chartered corporation with monopolistic rights. The company went bankrupt and was taken over by the crown in the reign of James I, around 1610 or so (i don't know the exact date, but one can look that up--but you can't look up what you don't even know about). That's a matter of detail which i wouldn't necessarily expect to be taught to high school students. Nor about the strange career of the Massachusetts Bay Company, another chartered corporation whose charter was eventually revoked (for very different reasons than was the case with the Virginia Company). But the East India Company, tea in Boston harbor ? ! ? ! ? Oh please, how does one avoid knowing about that?
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 09:42 am
@Setanta,
Of course I remember hearing of the "Boston Tea Party" and a very vague idea of what it was about. But as I said, I didn't care.

I (and I'd guess plenty of other people) didn't think it was important. Or, probably more to the point, interesting. Now in the last five years or so I've come to see all of history being as integral a component as the sciences (which, of course, I also didn't give a **** about) in understanding humanity.

And so people like me, having squandered a free basic education — and later in life really, really regretting it, must spend much of our adult lives trying to catch up. Again. I'm not proud of it. And it's my own fault, not the education system that I was in.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 10:01 am
I cant help but wonder when the 1% will realize that the second admendment is a danger to them, guns to the 99%, and have their supreme court reverse the right to bear arms. They wont even have to change the constitution.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 10:07 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You should read what Adam Smith had to say about parasites.

Time to resurrect an old idea: Economic Rent

Quote:
Smith observed that all production required 3 things. Land, Capital, and Labor. A very simple example would be a brick factory. The building and oven needed to create the bricks are the “capital” – the owners are the capitalists. The people making the bricks is the “labor” – the people doing the actual work. The Land the factory occupies and the clay used to make the bricks is the “land” – the owners of the land are the “Rentiers”. Any money made by selling the bricks is then divided up between these three groups: the rentiers, the capitalists, and the workers.

Adam Smith observed that only 2 of the 3 groups made any real contribution to the production process. The workers contributed their time. The capitalists contributed their capital that they either bought, but is now used and worth less than before it was used. The Rentiers contributed their land, but have lost nothing. Once the manufacturing of the bricks is done, they get their land back and it is still worth the same as it was before. Any income they made by renting out their land was made without work, and without risk to their assets. There is a word for someone that only takes, but doesn’t give back: a parasite. Smith and those who carried on his work used the nicer term, Rentier. This is where the phrase “economic rent” originates. It originally described a no value-ad landlord.[1]
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 11:52 am
@DrewDad,
Unfoutunately for your argument, the use of the land in question is indeed an element of value, exactly as is the capital required to produce the articles in question.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 12:05 pm
@georgeob1,
But the value of raw land comes as an endowment from nature. It isn't value added by landlords, only appropriated by them.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 12:34 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Unfoutunately for your argument,

Not my argument; Adam Smith's argument.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:09 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

But the value of raw land comes as an endowment from nature. It isn't value added by landlords, only appropriated by them.
No. For the past few centuries at least the land has been purchased and sold - and at values determined by a free market.

mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Even if we confiscate ALL of the assets of the "rich", and then redistribute that to everyone else, how long do you think that would last?

Others would then get wealthy, would you then seize their wealth?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:38 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
No. For the past few centuries at least the land has been purchased and sold - and at values determined by a free market.

I don't think DrewDad denies that---or Adam Smith for that matter. But just because you can buy or sell valuables on a free market, that doesn't mean you created their value. For just one obvious counterexample, stolen goods have been purchased and sold for centuries as well, at prices that correctly reflected their value and that were set by free markets. But I think even you would agree that the thieves didn't create the value of those goods. Hence, your argument doesn't refute what DrewDad said.
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:43 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Even if we confiscate ALL of the assets of the "rich", and then redistribute that to everyone else, how long do you think that would last?

Sweden's very high taxes rates have already lasted a generation or two, and so has the generous welfare state they finance. High, progressive tax rates have proven quite sustainable there---and so has their much-more-equal income distribution. We can argue whether the US should follow the Swedish model. But there's no doubt that it could.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:46 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
I don't think DrewDad denies that---or Adam Smith for that matter. But just because you can buy or sell something on a free market, that doesn't mean you created the value it has. For just one obvious counterexample, stolen goods have been purchased and sold for centuries as well, at prices determined by a free market. But I think even you would agree that the thieves didn't create the value of those goods. Your argument doesn't refute what DrewDad said.


I have to disagree.
Nothing has any type of monetary value until someone wants to buy it.
That is the market creating the value.
If a piece of swampland just sits, its not worth anything.
However, if a farmer buys that land, and uses it to plant corn, that land has become valuable.
Manhattan was bought from the Indians for $39, would you still say that is was only worth that?
Or, would you say that it was now worth much more, because of the value placed on it by people?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2011 01:47 pm
@Thomas,
You ignored the rest of my statement.
WHY?

Are you saying that there are no wealthy people in Sweden?
 

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