Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@Chights47,

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I guess I forgot that I previously linked the video to you but it is of significance. You believe the same things in which have only been asserted as truth for thousands of years yet you can't (or don't) appropriately question it.

And How do you know, or suppose I do these things?? I don't believe the exact same things which were spoken of thousands of years before, I think what God has revealed to me, is an ongoing, constantly, updated version of what was said thousands of years ago...and Yes, some of it involves questioning things...Even himself at times.

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The reason I know that you don't appropriately question it is because you still believe, this either means that you avoid the actual truth or merely search for false conclusions to support your faith.

(You mean the reason with which you would like to believe I don't question/or You yourself "feel" inclined to state," that you don't believe I search for Appropriate Truth is because....) This is indeed, YOUR perceptions as to how I do or act to such things...In which case it's false. Just because I don't believe the SAME way you do does not mean that I avoid actual truth, (or what you call actual truth) or am I searching for false conclusions to "support" my faith....Many things that have been revealed to me Go against what many people indeed would think about God, Afterlife, and Christianity....(Example: The possibility of reincarnation, so that as many can be saved as possible...) You can call that a false conclusion if you would like to...But the buttom line is I can "see that it exists" and I have in fact questioned it as many times as I have witnessed it, or been around ones who I see in the spirit world who wish or have done it....Nor does my scripture talk about it/Nor do my people embrace it/Nor does ANY person want to do this, but they will if they "need to" to be saved....that shows, I am NOT inclined to blindly believe something, Nor am I not questioning things of importance, Nor am I accepting false conclusions, because like I said if it exists/NOT ONE will want that, but to be with God himself...(which EVERY RELIGION who embraces reincarnation), never understands, nor depict that aspect to reincarnation....

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I also don't mean that by "appropriately question" that you search directly for evidence that contradicts your faith, but merely ask a question and attempt to find all explainations and then evaluate without bias as to which is true.

This, I feel that I do, If you have ''Proof" of me otherwise please present it...If you would like me to Give you an example of How I hear from God certain things, and then question them to "prove validity behind them" then I will be happy to give you some examples....

Examples: I have felt that people will have sole mates in Heaven, upon questioning God about this many times indeed, it is Clear to me that no such thing exists, and if Heaven exists than we are in fact brothers and sisters...for in my and as well as other peoples lives and experiences...By questioning the sole mate Idea By my personal experiences as well as other peoples lifestyles. NOT A ONE is truly perfect and responsible all the time in regards to a Husband or Wife...and myself the same exact way, henceforth, No such thing as a Husband or Wife in Heaven...SO I believed that they did, or may, and by questioning "it" validated what is written in Scripture....

Example: From what Scripture says, there is one life and that's in fact it. But I HAVE questioned what exactly is ONE life?? and all the answers I get, is whatever it is acceptable for God to do or use in ones journey once being Born in order to be saved....(reincarnation) (and like I said, because it is not Directly quoted in the Bible does not mean it in fact can't happen or won't/doesn't exist....That doesn't mean I am believing EVERYTHING stated thousands of years ago, as automatically true/nor does it say I am looking for false conclusions....that tells me that I am Truth seeking, to the highest regard....

Example: Many people believe that if your gay your going to hell, when I have spoken on here a few times ANYONE who says that nonsense, is just as worthy of going there as well, also! For the ONLY MORTAL SIN THAT EXISTS is in the END GOING AGAINST GOD, AFTER ALMOST INFINITE CHANCES...and the key to the door for Homosexual people, is how they react to a such God, not how or what they do that separates them from God. (being Gay, according to scripture) for if that were true, we would ALL need a purge to be cleansed!! And the same thing holds true for those in Catholocism who believe in such a thing as the 7 deadly sins....I think by questioning it, and NOT embracing it as Ultimate truth because it comes from ones who say they "know Christ"....(indeed many do, and some don't) But I have questioned such an Idea before God, and if that is the case there is Not a person on the face of the planet who will in fact not be entered into one of these gates of Hell!! for we ALL do one/some/all of the 7 deadly sins, and my message is not to contort Jesus' words and let people believe so long as you except him your all good and o.k.!! (though many maybe) But my message is to tell that each and EVERY time you sin your worthy for being purged, (if God felt inclined to do it) and second, that there is much more to being a Christ follower that JUST accepting Him. Such as valuing and progressing humanity....and whatever you do ALWAYS having God in the back of your mind!!

That does not show to me, I accept written things thousands of years ago without questioning them, and assuming there in fact right, nor does it mean, I contort Jesus' words to except him and your life will be perfect either....and By questioning EVERY imaginable thing/obsticle that you could probably imagine, I have come to the validated conclusions that, Not much is known/nor will ever be known (fully) about Christ. But that his message was the Most important/hardest to embrace/except...Two, that there is in fact much more that goes into being a follower than Just accepting Him (Jesus), 3. Faith it self, is the hardest, and most sugniffigant thing to embrace/accept on the face of the planet....4. NONE are above purging if God felt inclined to do it, and that sins themselves or actions here, on Earth, are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, and one day EVERYONE will know/accept this concept. And that God's Grace saves us from being purged...And lastly, There is no way to the Father except through Christ, But there are almost Unnumbered Chances in order to be saved/and or many ways in which go into one life, to eventually be counted as saved....

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

And lastly, There is no way to the Father except through Christ, But there are almost Unnumbered Chances in order to be saved/and or many ways in which go into one life, to eventually be counted as saved....

Rather than Black and White depictions of one life...Which would go against Blindly following/What I have heard and Read Alone/or ''Making Conclusions" to best fit me and my life...(for God has already said I am saved, So if I truly did not care about others, nor the TRUTH...than I would not speak pertaining to these topics! but my views, have EVERYTHING to do with what is best for humanity, and for a God of Piece, Mercy, Acceptance, Love etc....

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@BillRM,

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Given that no one was serous harm by this nut case at least this time I do not see how this video is too off color.

And...

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A TV show had an accident where they send a 30 repeat 30 pound cannon ball completely through a family home IE in one large hole and out another.

No one was hurt so people can see some humor in the happening however if one of the household members had been kill hell if even a family pet had been kill I do not think you would be seeing any humor being express over the matter as is now happening.

It does indeed matter how people reacted depending if harm had been done or not done by some event.

Since EVERYTHING is about you Bill, I will make this as EASY as possible for you to understand!! I guess I am Happy then, that YOU got a laugh out of the video's.... Rolling Eyes

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Before I respond, do you mind if I ask if you were born into Catholicism first by your parents or did you convert later in life?

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@Chights47,

And before I respond to your question, I wanted to point something out...

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I guess I forgot that I previously linked the video to you but it is of significance. You believe the same things in which have only been asserted as truth for thousands of years yet you can't (or don't) appropriately question it. The reason I know that you don't appropriately question it is because you still believe, this either means that you avoid the actual truth or merely search for false conclusions to support your faith.[/u]

(this is not a personal attack toward you Chights, But something I want to "point out" to Atheists in General, As it is something I noticed....) I take offense to being called ignorant. For we all do it, and are guilty of it at times. SO many Atheists on here harp about ignorance, and reasoning, and logic...But their listening skills are not very good, and mediocre at best....Does this mean to (any Atheist) that you are ignorant at times as well? and admit there is NO POINT to even make mention of it?

I will list and explain my situation again....I was Catholic, denounced it, Atheist, Heard God's voice searching me out, I did not go searching for him at first....then when hearing his voice, I searched EVERY MAJOR RELIGION I COULD GRASP....till I FOUND it was Christ calling me...So, in WHAT WAY, did I NOT appropriately search for God, and truth, and was Bias??

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@Chights47,

Now, I will respond...does it really even matter? whether I was born into it, or not, I denounced it all together....Then found God.....

But if you want me to be explicit, I was raised into it, but never took it seriously till AFTER I denounced it, was atheist, and heard God's voice....I hope this answers your questions.....So to answer your question, a little bit of both...Yes I was raised into it, but No, I didn't take it seriously. Yes, I was Atheist, and took it seriously. No, Atheism was not for me. Yes, I heard God's voice. Yes, I was converted later in life. Yes, I take it seriously Now....No, I did no go looking for God. Yes, he was looking and found me. No, I did not have premeditative assumptions of God. Yes, it was Christ who was calling and searching for me...No, I don't follow Catholicism. Yes, I follow Christianity.....

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@Chights47,

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I don't blame your God anymore than I blame Zeus or Thor, or Wotan, or any of the other thousands of gods that I don't believe exists. I don't think that your God is leading anyone anywhere because I think he/she/it is only a figment of people's imaginations.

Then WHY make mention of saying, So much for your God eh??

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She also didn't start really getting into Christianity until I started being more open about my atheism which is causing yet another rift between us and has lead to arguments about how we would raise our children.

Could this be, (like I said before) a test of her faith??

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I believe secular until they are the age of reason, she believes to raise a child Christian and then given the "choice" after they've been brainwashed. She was raised Catholic so she's into the whole brainwashing thing. I also don't believe that things are meant to be, nor do I believe in fate or any kind of divine plan.

Did you ever contemplate, (and I mean this in the BEST way possible) that God's plans for you to maybe not have children, wouldn't be such a bad idea in your case...seeing how you disagree about something of this magnitude??

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The only reason people believe this is because there are so many different factors that are out of control that most people don't realize or understand. People then just attribute what happens to and around them to some supernatural cause.

Please give me some examples, of, so many different factors that are out of control that most people don't realize or understand?? and HOW "they" attribute them to a higher cause??

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I wouldn't doubt that it might occasionally happen but are you (no offense) so ignorant of atheism that you think this is how our philosophy works?

No, just a point worth making, in reference to your brainwashing theory...There is a way to indonctrunate children without brainwashing them...

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I would find this very hard to believe unless you're suggesting that either Christian families are brainwashing their children to hate the religion that they believe (among others) or that atheists are reproducing like rabbits (do to the fast increase in those that claim to be atheist). Ignorance, gullibility, and brainwashing are at the very core of religion while in atheism it may occasionally scrape the outer surface but it is definitely not what atheism is about.

And I happen to disagree, that religion is ALL about Ignorance, Gullibility, and brainwashing...While Atheists could be the same apposed to just scraping the surface....The key here is "progressing humanity" if your doing that, that it would not matter theist, or non-theist....You being a good sumeratian...And when you old enough to understand, you will have the wisdom to "decide" between theism, or Atheism....

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To me and many others, atheism is about free thought, it's about using reason, logic, and common sense to determine for yourself what shall be deemed right and wrong. It's not about just accepting the views of someone else just because they say they're right.

And who says that if your theist, you MUST except the views and thoughts of someone else??

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You still don't understand, you are still making an argument against the philosophies and people. I'm making the argument solely against the belief in a deity, since atheism does not have that, you cannot make an argument against it. Why would it matter if I supposedly lead millions astray?

Because if the people are "leading millions astray" it would be just as bad, as someone believing in a false Deity, and being brainwashed, and Gullible, and ignorant....

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According to you pretty much everyone goes to heaven (if any are sent to hell at all that is) so I don't see how that is really an issue, unless we only have this one life and our acceptance into heaven is based solely on blind faith like it clearly states in the bible? If we're supposedly both going down "paths of light" then what does is matter what we believe in since this supposedly is irrelevant now?

Because in the end, whether we make it or not, and are happy, I garuntee there will be MANY things that we regret, and will determine our exact position in a Heaven (if it exists)

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If something is beneficial then it is never pointless, nor did I ever claim as such. I'm only stating that so much more could be done that what currently is being done.

With which I agree completely, Whether Theist, OR Atheist...

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I think I may have used this example a while ago but I'll state it again. Imagine how great the world would be if all the time spent in devotion to a god was instead spent in devotion to progressing and aiding humanity and the world? That would literally be BILLIONS of hours EVERY WEEK doing something that's ACTUALLY productive! Not only would the people who do good be more productive in this, but all the people who do horrible things would instead do good! This would flip the world and all the species on it in a 180 and make this a pretty sweet place to live in almost no time! So just imagine how the world is now, and how much better it could be.

And who is to say that your world view is exactly right? And that society, for a fact would 100% do these things if we dicarded ALL Theism's??and that (namely Christianity) is ALL about Ignorance, Gullibility, and brainwashing? Do you believe that there is a chance your wrong?? And by doing these things as A Christian, it would make the world a pretty sweet place, as well as an afterlife (if it exists)...

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First off, I don't question based on conclusions. I develop conclusions based on the evidence that I find (or don't find) based on the indifferent questions I ask in attempt to discern what is true from what is false.

And who is to say that you have in fact pinpointed the exact correct way of discerning True from False? Could others find answers based off of things that they can't prove??

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This is what it means to be rational and to be a "free thinker". Accepting something without questioning it is a test of gullibility which is the blind faith in which you hold so dear.

And following and obeying someone or something who "compels" you to do reflections of light...Shows that it's NOT about gullibility, And about "faith'' and "Obediance" Which if there is a God, Would you agree is more valid, than personally being a rational, or free thinking person?? in other words, One promotes the self, one promotes something greater, and higher....

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I'm not specifically claiming that there is no afterlife. I'm stating that the claim has no credibility or evidence what-so-ever, they are very similar but not one in the same. To deny an after life is to state that you are 100% sure there is no after life. I'm merely saying that the possibility of it's non-existence is so astronomically high that it almost amounts to the same thing.

And what makes you "so sure" of this statement?? (I'm merely saying that the possibility of it's non-existence is so astronomically high that it almost amounts to the same thing.) Could it be, that the ONLY way you find it, is through "faith" and "obediance". Like spoken of in the Bible?? If that is the case, Or pretty much ANY theistic belief...Do you believe your eyes will EVER be open to an afterlife? Or God? (if it exists) (if your answer is No, than your being self-Honest, if your answer is I don't care, whether your being honest or not you have ALREADY CONVICTED IT!!! and if your answer is Yes, then I would say that you probably are not a Self-Honest person, and or you truly don't understand theism "enough" to debate about it...

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Why would your life automatically get worse without your God?

Because I am not strong enough, self-honest, Loving, accepting, Patient etc, without him...

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Why can't you simply live the same life that you're living now just without him.

Have tried it, and Gone down a very negative path indeed...Not one that I am willing to dig a hole out of without his guidance....

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Why can't you just do the same good deeds, be just as loving and caring, etc?

If you understand the concept of God, and the Devil...It's pretty self-explainitory....

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My life actually improved significantly once I started living without the thoughts of Gods for I was in control and I lead my life the way that I wanted to so that I might do the most good.

People do the exact same thing Once they realize, that God is always there guiding them....

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I'm also not saying that people have to accept the same exact things as I do or nything like that. Atheism (to me at least) is about what works best and is most effective, and what works best and is most effective for me may not be the same as for you.

As it wasn't and isn't! The most effective way for me was to open my heart and listen to one, who has more understanding, logic, reasoning, Love, Knowledge than ALL of us...Think about it for a second, If I should listen to you, and you have more Understandings, Knowledge, etc than I do, and a God exists, why would you NOT want to listen to the being with the MOST LOGIC, AND KNOWLEDGE etc, in existence...???

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God's, however, do not help anyone in anyway thus are pointless to spend time on.

I disagree!

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Pray doesn't work in any sense except in tautology.

I disagree!

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Your God supposedly answers prayers in a "yes", "no", or "wait" fashion, what people don't seem to realize is that I could say the same thing about my ass!

And what people don't realize with there whole Giant hamburger, or Spaghetti Monster theory is....If your ASS truly DID answer my Prayers the SAME EXACT WAY GOD ANSWERS MINE, THAN PEOPLE WOULD FOR A FACT SAY YOUR ASS IS GOD!!! AND THE SAME WITH A GIANT HAMBURGER, OR SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!

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If you pray to my ass it will answer your prayers in a "yes", "no", or "wait" fashion...and of course it will...supposedly.

No it won't, and when it does. I will gladly ''admit" that it does....

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I may not know what's better but I can see what is worse and I can suggest ways in which to improve a situation. How does your "personal relationship" with the magical daddy in the sky help anyone?

Because all those things with which you do, that better humanity, but in turn "bettering, and preparing our future in Heaven" (if God exists) would you not agree here??

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He sure isn't helping anything down here, so really all he is is an empty void that sucks up time in which could be spent doing something positive for someone else...and that's on the good side.

No, that is on the Good side, of "your own interpretations" in which if Heaven exists...Than people can be beneficial for "progressing humanity" as well as better-prepared futures, and existences....

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Religion is the cause of the fighting in Israel, religion is the cause of so much suffering in the horn of Africa, and the list goes on. Yes, religion can also do good things as well but why must it come with this catch all for a God that doesn't do anything?

Again, this is presuming your right that God doesn't do anything....If God exists, than there is "NO CATCH" and "faith" and "obediance" is the way to finding him...and is the test behind a test (doing good for humanity, as well as showing you can be faithful and obediant to something you do not fully understand, and the key to excepting him, and his plans, and future in Heaven...with which, I am 100% positive that if people experienced Heaven, they would want to go, apposed to their, "I know for sure I would no want to go, belief, or understanding" How can you be certain you would or would not want to go somewhere if you never experienced it??? And just so you know, for you reply, I have experienced things that were Heaven-Like...

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Wouldn't I be struck down and taken away due to lack of faith anyway?

No!

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Wht kind of God would he be to make us some of us so exceedingly smart that we realize that the natural world do not represent the claims that are in the bible?

Exceedingly Cunning, not smart....think about it, If you did not accept him, and think that your exceedingly smart, because of reasons you conclude from the Bible...what kind of faith and obediance do you have in your life?? which is what the Bible says is the most important....So basically what I am saying is that the Bible explains why doubters think the way that they do, and it's pretty much right on! So if the Bible is wrong, It seems it would be wrong about EVERYTHING, or if it is true, EVERYTHING would have MEANING BEHIND IT!!

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If your God really is the creator of the universe, then why would make all of these "false" evidences which lead to the rational conclusions that he does not exist?

Because on the flip side, it "shows evidence" that "faith" and "obediance" are the only ways of finding him...as far as the above Bold text...it does not show me rational conclusions of non-existence, but rather cunning and persuasive ways to DENY....and be a gloater, or self-righteous etc....

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Why can't he reveal himself and show himself to the world in a wy that no one would doubt him?

He in fact will do this one day!!

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If he did, how would that destroy free will? Would I still not have the choice to not follow him and to continue on my own way? Free will is about choice, we always have a choice even if all other options seem so far fetched and undesirable, they still remain an option. Let's say that your God is as perfect as you claim, if he were to reveal himself than only a fool would not chose to follow him...does that mean that the choice does not still remain? The answer is no, the choice does still remain and we retain our free will but the world ends up being much better place under the guidance of your God rather than the "chaos" in which is upon us now.

That is presuming that your "understandings" are "right on" if there not, and the world became bitter for denying him, and then seeing he does in fact exist...it shows that they are cunning evasive people. and were not God's people, and were not lofty people, because his test was "faith" in conjunction to free will...if he revealed himself to us, and people were bitter with him, than there would be no piece, and or mercy anymore...for there ONLY path would be separation from God, Holy Ones...So I guess you can say, Anyone suffering, is doing so for a higher cause they may or may not be aware of as of yet....

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After reading a little back story on her it has lead me to even more questions in which I won't get into. I don't know for certain if the positions that I'll discuss are ones that you hold and regardless of whether you do our not, any flaw that I do find in them are sure to come along with some new on the spot rationalization.

So sorry, you already have me convicted....why do you spend your one and only life talking with me, if this is how you genuinely feel about me????

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What's the point in being tested here if your God already knows how we're going to end up anyway?

Because it validates it!

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Why do we have to be tested here of all places? Why can't we test ourselves throughout all eternity in heaven in whatever we choose or whatever your God wants?

That would not be fulfillment now would it??

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Why do we need to prove ourselves as the greatest "creation" anyway?

Because it validates it!

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Why can't we just have the title because your God's given to us? I honestly don't really see how we can be called the "greatest species" except by your God's word alone. We are single handedly destroying the world faster than it can fix itself. We destroy entire species just for personal gain, and many other horrible things. Because of this I would actually call us the worst species on earth since this worlds survival is in our hands and right now it's headed right down the tubes.

Henceforth, why it is not plausible to go to Heaven, and test ourselves against God during/in Heaven...but that submission, passing of test, and accepted, and guided, by his power for eternity with utter euphoria is the way it is meant to be!! and how an afterlife, by the Guidance of a God, would not be such a bad thing after all!!!

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

The reason that it matters that you were raised Catholic is because Catholicism is greatly into childhood indocrination which is a form of brainwashing. The reason this is important is because I find it very odd that you don't see the reason why you chose Christianity over all the other religions that you have tried. Religion is based heavily on culture and seeing as how it's a dominating religion in the US and seeing as how you were raised in the Christian faith (specifically the manipulative denomination of Catholicism), I would have been very surprised if you had chosen another deity to follow. As far as you saying that you question things and search for truth, I find that to be (no offense) humorous. Questioning the details of an idea are pointless if you do not first verify the core of the idea. If the core of the idea, philosophy, religion, or whatever is wrong, then everything around that core is moot. This is (no offense) a sort of pseudo-rationality which leads to the "irrational rationalizations" as I like to refer to it. All of the idea's that you add to Christianity as possibilities due to you not agree what is stated is one of those "irrational rationalizations". The reason I refer to it as such is because it's basically a rationalization of the irrational. I can forsee that based on this response that you will reiterate your claim of being an atheist although I highly doubt that our meaning of the word "atheist" coincide. In regards to my meaning of the word "atheist" if you are to become one, there is no way to go back without participating in some form of memory removal. In your case (based on the very sparse data) I would guess at saying that you were actually more of an apathetic agnostic possibly?

As far as your inhibitions to the word "ignorant" I do not mean it to be in any way derogatory. It's definition is actually: destitute of knowledge or education. Now if I were to say this without context (which I would never do) then it would be in a derogatory sense. In regards to the way I use it, it only means that you do not seem to be educated within the context in which I provide. For example, It would seem that you are ignorant of the history of religion. This does not indicate that you are stupid or lack intelligence in any way. It is merely indicating that you are not well versed in the history of religion. Generally when such indications are made, it would be wise to do at least a little research on the matter, just a recommendation of course. In regards to myself and the term, I honestly delight in it. As much as I like being right and knowing things, it is far more beneficial to me if I am wrong and am shown that I am. In such instances I grow far more as a person in both my knowledge of the world and in my humility which are of far more importance than just the title of "being right". So if ever you feel that I am ignorant on a topic, please inform me of such and if you would like you may also educate me the topic.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Then WHY make mention of saying, So much for your God eh??

Your god is generally attributed with assisting people generally through the "power of prayer" yet there is no indication of any divine assistance. I don't blame your god for anything because I don't expect anything from your god because your god is not there to give anything.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Could this be, (like I said before) a test of her faith??

I don't quite understand how my lack of faith would be a test of her faith. Another point however, would be that she didn't really have any sort of faith before this (except growing up). Before this she didn't pray, worship, read the bible or anything regarding religion. If you saw her before and didn't bring up religion, you would have probably thought she was an atheist just like me.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Did you ever contemplate, (and I mean this in the BEST way possible) that God's plans for you to maybe not have children, wouldn't be such a bad idea in your case...seeing how you disagree about something of this magnitude

I do appreciate your continued sensitivity although it's really not necessary. As far as this comment goes however, If there were a deity and made a part of his plans for me not to have children then I would take that as a complete bitch-slap to the face. Raising a child is one of the greatest things in which can be done in a persons life and is a real testament to who you are as a person. Just so you are aware, right now as it stands, we have temporarily agreed to raise the child non-denominational Christian until they are old enough to be explained my side of the argument. While I do not believe this to be a "fair" deal, it's not unacceptable.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Please give me some examples, of, so many different factors that are out of control that most people don't realize or understand?? and HOW "they" attribute them to a higher cause??

As far as the examples that would depend on the situation in which was attributed with being supernatual in origin. an example would be when a person has cancer and then prays on it and is cured. The factors they most people don't take into consideration is how early the cancer was caught, how effective the treaments were what type of cancer is was and how it affected the persons body, how knowledgable the doctor was who provided the care in assisting her, etc. These are just very basic examples, an oncologist wold be able to provide more specific examples but seeing as how I am not well versed in oncology I can't state anything too specific. How people attribute these things to supernatual cause is easy. In the history of that which is supernatural, it has always branched out from ignorance. Whatever it is that we do not know, we attribute it with having a supernatural origin in order to explain it. For example, the biblical story of the Tower of Babalon to explain why other people spoke different languages.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

No, just a point worth making, in reference to your brainwashing theory...There is a way to indonctrunate children without brainwashing them...

Indoctrination is defined as the teaching of a doctrine(s) and doctrine is generally defined as a creed or body of teachings of a religious group presented for acceptance or belief; dogma. I'm not certain as to your thoughts on this but Atheism is not a religion nor is it dogmatic. So really this whole comment of yours is based solely on what you would define as "indocrination" based on how you are using it, it implies that you believe it to mean the teaching of any sort of ideology (which is an archaic use of the word). By these standards the only way to not indoctrinate children would be to let them be raised by wolves, and even then you're cutting it close.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

And who says that if your theist, you MUST except the views and thoughts of someone else??

Please refer back to the discussion about "pseudo-rationality" While you may not accept the "whole enchilada" of Christianity, you do "mix and match" various irrationalities in order to create some semblance of a rational belief.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Because if the people are "leading millions astray" it would be just as bad, as someone believing in a false Deity, and being brainwashed, and Gullible, and ignorant....

What would it matter if I potentially lead millions astray if we supposedly have almost innumerable chances in order to get into heaven? What would this one life matter unless it really is all that we have and it is based solely on belief?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Because in the end, whether we make it or not, and are happy, I garuntee there will be MANY things that we regret, and will determine our exact position in a Heaven (if it exists)

I may have shown this video before but regardless, this comment deserves this video:

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

And who is to say that you have in fact pinpointed the exact correct way of discerning True from False? Could others find answers based off of things that they can't prove??

Can you think of a better way than the scientific method? If you can then that would be miraculous in itself for that would mean that you are smarter than every single scientific mind in the last 1000 years or so. The scientific method was originally developed by Ibn al-Haytham who lived between 965–1039 and some version of the scientific method has been in practice ever since then...so good luck then!

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

And what makes you "so sure" of this statement?? (I'm merely saying that the possibility of it's non-existence is so astronomically high that it almost amounts to the same thing.) Could it be, that the ONLY way you find it, is through "faith" and "obediance". Like spoken of in the Bible?? If that is the case, Or pretty much ANY theistic belief...Do you believe your eyes will EVER be open to an afterlife? Or God? (if it exists) (if your answer is No, than your being self-Honest, if your answer is I don't care, whether your being honest or not you have ALREADY CONVICTED IT!!! and if your answer is Yes, then I would say that you probably are not a Self-Honest person, and or you truly don't understand theism "enough" to debate about it...

How "sure" I am doesn't factor in to this, am I open to an afterlife and the existence of a deity? I would say hypothetically yes but only under the assumption that said deity would be able to provide actual testable proof of it's existence. Since there is none to speak of and based on the track record of religions, I doubt there will be in the forseeable future. As far as only being able to find it through faith and obedience, this (yet again) goes back to gullibility. Gullibile is a synonym of blind faith which is exact what it is for if it were anything about blind faith, it would require some sort of proof. Since there is none and you claim that your deity can't provide any do to your flawed free-will argument you would have to believe that it's based on gullibility since you're practically preaching about faith (which is a synonym of gullible).

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Because I am not strong enough, self-honest, Loving, accepting, Patient etc, without him...

The way I see is that you actually are but are only holding yourself back or simply don't have enough self confidence to push through it. All of these things that you attribute to the god are actually coming from you. You are actually much stronger and more loving and have greater patience than you know because this deity limits you in this because it cuts off the self awareness of your true potential. That's what I realized after I gave up practicing the Christian faith. This deity doesn't make you better in the ways you've described, you do that, all you have to do is harness that power inside you and "let it rip".

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If you understand the concept of God, and the Devil...It's pretty self-explainitory....

There are only two conclusions for the existence of a devil. The first being that you're god isn't all powerful and cannot destroy him, or two, your God is a dick and allows the devil to corrupt people.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

People do the exact same thing Once they realize that God is always there guiding them....

I don't accept this, based on the previous statement in your post, this leads me to believe that the only reason you think I'm doing good things is because of the guidance of your god. If that's the case then I find that to be a revolting, deceitful lie in which many theists tell themselves as another irrational rationalization. The reason that it's so revolting is because it aids the irrational belief that leads to the irrational hatred and distrust of atheists. Did you know that a study was down and the conclusion to it was that atheists were just as hated as rapist? That's right, a majority of America believe's that atheists are equivalent to rapists...great country we live in huh?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

As it wasn't and isn't! The most effective way for me was to open my heart and listen to one, who has more understanding, logic, reasoning, Love, Knowledge than ALL of us...Think about it for a second, If I should listen to you, and you have more Understandings, Knowledge, etc than I do, and a God exists, why would you NOT want to listen to the being with the MOST LOGIC, AND KNOWLEDGE etc, in existence...???

I know I've posted this video before but I find it funny. If you think that your god is more logical and knowledgable than me then who came up with this stupid idea?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

I disagree!

This was a double response to my claims that gods do not help anyone and prayer does not work. Since you disagree, please provide testable and verifiable proof that prayer in fact works, and that deities in fact, assist people directly. As far as the response of you praying to my ass, I guarantee that it will respond like I said, you just don't have enough faith so you can't hear it. The reason I know that it will respond in such a manner is because there is no other alternative. What you pray for will either happen, not happen, or may happen in the future. If you pray for a promotion at work, I guarantee that no matter what you pray to you will either get the job, someone else will get the job, or the job will stay available.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Because all those things with which you do, that better humanity, but in turn "bettering, and preparing our future in Heaven" (if God exists) would you not agree here??

I don't know but you kind of seem to being going off into la la land now. I would not agree, and I honestly cannot possibly conceive how you could think otherwise. My actions are intended to make this world that we live in now a better place for everyone living now and for generations to come. My personal vision of an ideal world would not include the belief in deities as it serves no beneficial purpose. Now beneficial lessons can be learned from religious texts, but the same can be said about books such as Harry Potter.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Because on the flip side, it "shows evidence" that "faith" and "obediance" are the only ways of finding him...as far as the above Bold text...it does not show me rational conclusions of non-existence, but rather cunning and persuasive ways to DENY....and be a gloater, or self-righteous etc....

I really don't know what to say to this, this is pretty much screaming about how disingenuous you are being about this. Really? It "shows evidence" that "faith" and "obediance" are the only ways to discovering your deity? So in other words, the evidence that disproves his existence doesn't count because your god can only be found in the same way you would find Peter Pan in Neverland?

1 Reply

As far as No proof of God's existence...look at this video, in conjunction to how Israel Fell...and the U.S.....

1 Reply

@Chights47,

Quote:

I don't know but you kind of seem to being going off into la la land now. I would not agree, and I honestly cannot possibly conceive how you could think otherwise. My actions are intended to make this world that we live in now a better place for everyone living now and for generations to come. My personal vision of an ideal world would not include the belief in deities as it serves no beneficial purpose. Now beneficial lessons can be learned from religious texts, but the same can be said about books such as Harry Potter.

Sorry, I was a bit losing interest, and falling asleep....So sorry, I will answer 2 or so of your questions from your post tomorrow....BTW, I agree (with you) in/about a fair deal, in the above statement about children. But I do value, that you were the better and bigger person in the argument!...Have a great day Chights!!

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

If your God really is the creator of the universe, then why would make all of these "false" evidences which lead to the rational conclusions that he does not exist?

Because on the flip side, it "shows evidence" that "faith" and "obediance" are the only ways of finding him...as far as the above Bold text...it does not show me rational conclusions of non-existence, but rather cunning and persuasive ways to DENY....and be a gloater, or self-righteous etc....

Quote:

I really don't know what to say to this, this is pretty much screaming about how disingenuous you are being about this. Really? It "shows evidence" that "faith" and "obediance" are the only ways to discovering your deity? So in other words, the evidence that disproves his existence doesn't count because your god can only be found in the same way you would find Peter Pan in Neverland?

Sorry, I will reply in a way that is less disingenuous...so that you understand my "understandings"

I don't believe that they are rational conclusions of Non-existence but that it self describes the notion of "Faith" itself, and being tested, here, for an afterlife...

1 Reply

@Chights47,

Quote:

The reason that it matters that you were raised Catholic is because Catholicism is greatly into childhood indocrination which is a form of brainwashing. The reason this is important is because I find it very odd that you don't see the reason why you chose Christianity over all the other religions that you have tried.

It has nothing to do with culture and backround, and everything to do with, when I heard God's voice, I searched and through sifting, found it was Christ...If it was about culture and backround then I would have been Catholic again, and took it seriously, the fact I am not, and went through every major religion that exists, but to no avail. Because their lack of a Savior, shows that at least in your understandings of The history of religion, That (at least in my case it is different)...

Quote:

Religion is based heavily on culture and seeing as how it's a dominating religion in the US and seeing as how you were raised in the Christian faith (specifically the manipulative denomination of Catholicism), I would have been very surprised if you had chosen another deity to follow.

Who says that I did not, in finding God??

Quote:

As far as you saying that you question things and search for truth, I find that to be (no offense) humorous. Questioning the details of an idea are pointless if you do not first verify the core of the idea. If the core of the idea, philosophy, religion, or whatever is wrong, then everything around that core is moot.

And again, what says that your understandings of a said philosophy, religion (in this case) is right, and their core ideas are wrong? I have verified the core Idea of Christianity, and find that No God or theism is complete without a Savior, That core Idea (to me) is NOT wrong, So therefor, I will quote you,"If something is beneficial, it is NOT pointless!"

Quote:

This is (no offense) a sort of pseudo-rationality which leads to the "irrational rationalizations" as I like to refer to it. All of the idea's that you add to Christianity as possibilities due to you not agree what is stated is one of those "irrational rationalizations". The reason I refer to it as such is because it's basically a rationalization of the irrational.

I don't agree that that is in fact what I am doing....But that it is God telling me, and explaining to me that there are agenda's or messages that are not being told...one of the things that comes along with Prophecies, and ALL the mysteries of God....And MUCH MORE go into God, than a black and white portrait of him....With the MAIN goal, of salvation!

Quote:

I can forsee that based on this response that you will reiterate your claim of being an atheist although I highly doubt that our meaning of the word "atheist" coincide. In regards to my meaning of the word "atheist" if you are to become one, there is no way to go back without participating in some form of memory removal. In your case (based on the very sparse data) I would guess at saying that you were actually more of an apathetic agnostic possibly?

Tell me what an Apathetic Agnostic is? and I will tell you if that is what I was....Point is, That I embraced Atheism "enough" to understand the magnitude of it...and when I heard God calling me, there was not a Scarier Moment in my life, (at first) and again, it is NOT a hole in which I wish to "try" to dig myself out of again!

If Atheism works for you in a way that your productive, and progress humanity, than like I said, Your doing a part of God's work, and there maybe hope for you, if that is what you want...I, on the other hand, know I can't live that life, and or be productive in that kind of way, and likewise use God to achieve the same things in which you do...And in turn he guides me in the right path or direction...constantly praising of Good, and rebuking, or dicipling me when wrong....WITHOUT HIM, I WOULD BE LOST, TO SAY THE LEAST!!

2 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

As far as No proof of God's existence...look at this video, in conjunction to how Israel Fell...and the U.S.....

So sorry all, was still waking up, and forgot the link here it is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcsv4t9SzTg

and then part 2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlrDYRVlUf0

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

I think if you like to watch and evaluate Cliffe's explanations....than you will indeed enjoy these 2 videos with which I posted....please watch them!!

0 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

If Atheism works for you in a way that your productive, and progress humanity, than like I said, Your doing a part of God's work, and there maybe hope for you, if that is what you want...I, on the other hand, know I can't live that life, and or be productive in that kind of way, and likewise use God to achieve the same things in which you do...And in turn he guides me in the right path or direction...constantly praising of Good, and rebuking, or dicipling me when wrong....WITHOUT HIM, I WOULD BE LOST, TO SAY THE LEAST!!

And one more thing I would like to point out to you Chights...I as a believer am giving you a way out with which your views and understandings/apposed to my views/beliefs of a God...I have said several times now, that if you in fact are for "progressing humanity" than your doing a portion of God's work already, and could in fact lead to wisdom to except Christ if you wanted that....

You on the other hand have not offered me a way out in terms of your beliefs/lack of beliefs in conjunction to God, and my beliefs....You have ALWAYS stated and never even made mention of how, if a God was leading me toward Light, and I was in fact "progressing humanity" than there would be some positive you take from religion/God....Such as If your God truly is leading you toward light I can't discredit that much...which I would take as a very Self-honest, Aware person in saying and understanding these things....The fact that you hold on to/value that I MUST denounce God in order to be fully productive...leads me to believe your being a little stubborn, or not Fully Self-Honest with yourself in regards/to examples which suit against your views, with which I have shown exist in religion to prove validity....and your statement that you made couldn't sum it up better. ,"If something is beneficial, it is NOT pointless"

When you admit, that there are ways of being productive/in regards to a religion and belief of a God/or offer a way out, I will view it as Just as viable as religion/belief in a God...

0 Replies

@Chights47,

And please, I am asking you polietly, not to respond with a post about an irrational rationality theory...I have heard it/taken it to heart/fully understand what you are saying and "take in" your post(s) about it/them....With which I disagree completely with which that I am doing so, but more about presenting untold mysteries of God, which depict the MAIN goal of salvation. And a God of Piece<Mercy<Love<Acceptance<Patience etc...

When you budge from the fact of denouncing God all together in order to "fully be productive" to humanity. We can discuss this matter in a more intelligent/Intellectual way so that we BOTH show we value humanity, and are both doing portions of God's work....with which salvation could be obtained if desired....If your not willing to budge on the theory that one "needs" to denounce a God all together in order to serve the people and public of the world, then I find that your views are not totally Self-Honest, nor totally Self-Aware, "outside your circle" and the simple belief that it must be one way in order to achieve something is incorrect.... Just as bad, as Bold speaking Theists who depict that it MUST be one way or they're doomed....it is flat out false "from everything that God has revealed to me" God came to save not condemn....

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Denounce god is like denouncing the Easter Bunny!!!!!

However you can denounce a god as picture in the bible that is so full of love for
the human race that at one point he kill all of it but for one family by drowning.

Strange he used that method of killing us as one would assume that he could had just wave his hands in the air and wiped us all out of existent without any pain or fear being involved.

Kind of similar to a man who is too cheap to go to the vet and therefore kill a litter of kittens by drowning them in a pail.

The Christian god as picture in the bible is a very evil god indeed.

3 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

The Christian god as picture in the bible is a very evil god indeed.

And if it is true, that you look at child porn, and or believe in beastiality, (as I have never seen these posts but have heard about them) Do you really believe that you are the one who would/should talk about evilness of others? apposed to focusing in on yourself??

0 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

Denounce god is like denouncing the Easter Bunny!!!!!

However you can denounce a god as picture in the bible that is so full of love for
the human race that at one point he kill all of it but for one family by drowning.

Strange he used that method of killing us as one would assume that he could had just wave his hands in the air and wiped us all out of existent without any pain or fear being involved.

Kind of similar to a man who is too cheap to go to the vet and therefore kill a litter of kittens by drowning them in a pail.

The Christian god as picture in the bible is a very evil god indeed.

And YET AGAIN, you failed, or failed to neglect, or to talk about Jesus Christ, and what he did in the New Testament, His new Covenant, what he did, said, and spoke of pertaining to The Heavenly Father....And symbolizes a God<of Piece<Mercy<Love<Acceptance<Forgiveness<etc...

2 Replies

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