Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

It is why I ask the person directly. From past experience, the general answer I get is one thing but it is an answer from believers and they can only tell me what they believe the reasoning is. I truly want to know from rl why. I'm not trying to start anything or be derogatory. I truly don't understand why the change is not enough and perhaps rl can fill me in.

3 Replies

@izzythepush,

Quote:

It's also why a lot of atheists try to portray all believers as literalists because it's very easy to argue against.

But why do they want to argue against it? If they didn't have an obsessive desire to argue against it they wouldn't portray believers as literalists.

A simple enjoyment of debate is understandable but the emotional obsession with this subject needs explanation.

Further--it might be said that a lot of atheists portray believers as literalists because they don't know that a defence of literalists is possible. They make an assumption that the literalists they have in mind are simple-minded.

They assume , for example, that because we can afford to tolerate homosexuality the people of OT times also could. They assume that slavery in OT times was the same institution we know it as. They assume that Solomon's 1,000 wives were wives in the sense we use the word.

They also imagine that the precepts in the OT were the normal practice. But just as now, if all the precepts of our law were diligently enforced the economy would tank.

The Police of both London and Paris had lists of tens of thousands of homosexuals who they left alone. They only prosecuted those who made a spectacle of themselves. Which wasn't very many.

It's the atheists who are the literalists in the service of the agenda which they are obsessed about.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

Frank, with all due respect, I am asking this question of rl because he is the one that brought the subject up. It is commonly brought up in Christian chatrooms by nonbelievers and I always ask why, if God doesn't do it that way anymore, is it even important? Why isn't the fact it doesn't happen anymore good enough? I honestly would like someone to answer that for me. There must be a reason it is done and I do not want to assume why they do it so I ask.

I do not understand what you are expecting to happen. The question does not go to whether or not something is happening...it has to do with the morality of Christianity. The morality of Christianity IS established in the Old Testament. That is all I am saying...that any notion that the GOD of the Old Testament is not the GOD of the new, is absurd.

But if you give me an idea of what you mean by "it doesn't happen anymore"...I will discuss it with you...and I will do it respectfully.

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@Frank Apisa,

By the way...I am NOT an atheist. I am agnostic on the question of the existence of a GOD.

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@Arella Mae,

I would say your past experience has already explained it for you...But I do applaud the persistance you have as a believer of Christ... Wink

They do not have a credible answer to give you...Because there is no credible reason to say it...If they have no belief at all...

If people refuse to answer you...I would say it is because they can not refute what you have said...That would seem to be correct more times than not....
Because from how I have seen you act, I do not think that anyone would say that you are an intollerable person...because you are very respectful indeed...
And can do many things as a believer that I personally am not able to do myself...though we are all for one... Wink

If they refuse, don't let it get to you....It means that you are doing a good job for God...! Very Happy

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, I really don't mean any disrespect to you but I want rl's response. I want to know why HE does it since he is the one that did it. I don't understand the reasoning thus far so I am asking him. It's not something I want a big debate about. I just want to know HIS feelings about it.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

I truly want to know from rl why. I'm not trying to start anything or be derogatory. I truly don't understand why the change is not enough and perhaps rl can fill me in.

I can tell you why I bring up the old testament and what seems to be immoral teachings in it but I can not speak on behalf of all non believers.

I do not see it as, "God does not do it that way anymore" I see the old testament the same way I see the culture of that time. We were a bunch of barbarians compared to what we think is moral today. '
I think that it was these barbarians of the past "our ancestors" who wrote the bible and It was not influenced by a moral or just God. Morals do not change but the collective mores do seem to for the society as a whole.

We have evolved past some of the horrific mores of the past and soon it will be time for those in the future to view us in a similar light, "the same light we are viewing the behaviors of our ancestors..

2 Replies

@reasoning logic,

What were you up to mate while away? Anything interesting? I was playing with my niece because it is snowing here...We were making those snow bricks....And snow angels, and throwing snow balls...

My hands got too cold and I had to come inside...

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

I understand that you want RL's answer...and I hope he gives you one that satisfies you. But you and SM seem to be indicating that questions of this sort arise in discussions often...and you both seem to think non-theists are not responsive.

I, on the other hand, am responsive to a fault...so I find myself wondering why you wrote:

If you are aware of Jesus and his teachings then you are well aware of the fact God does not deal with us in the same manner that he did in the Old Testament so I have to wonder why you would even bring it up.

Where does that come from...and how do you determine how your god "deals with us?"

If you are of the opinion that Jesus is divine...then you must be respectfully of the GOD Jesus worshiped.

"The GOD Jesus worshiped" is described in great detail in the Old Testament books. The things that offend "the GOD Jesus worshiped" are described in great detail in the Old Testament.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the New Testament to indicate that the things that offend "the GOD Jesus worshiped"...no longer offends that god.

That is my point...and that seems to be a rather complete response to this question that you claim you ask often and nobody wants to answer.

I AM ANSWERING it...so why not discuss it with me.

We do not have to argue...we can just discuss it.

5 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Shopping and getting tires put on my car

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

But you and SM seem to be indicating that questions of this sort arise in discussions often...and you both seem to think non-theists are not responsive.

I was indicating that they answer the question...in a subjective way...But their answers are non-responsive...Because it never really answers the actual question itself...that is proposed...

Why would someone who has no belief about this God, claim that he is an evil God? Or that the morailty is wrong?

Unless they KNOW why, They simply can not answer that question without a belief about it...it is not possible...

Because if they had none...There is nothing they would need or have to say other than it does not matter if he is or is not...Because he does not exist or never did...And never will...

But they do not say that...But often explain how he is evil or the morality is wrong...

Why would it matter what this God has said, Does? Or thinks? If they ultimately do not believe that he is? Or at least have no belief about him? Because they certianly can not say that they KNOW the answer, right?

And there is no way for them to "prove" it? Or back it up with "evidence"?

Or do they think they can?

Would that not just be a belief as well? Or something they believe is true?

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

Why would someone who has no belief about this God, claim that he is an evil God? Or that the morailty is wrong?

Do you really have an interest in truth and reality?

People such as myself claim that the bible "which is suppose to be the word of God "according to believers such as yourself" is riddled with accounts of immorality provoked by the God loving people in it.

Example a man of God makes a promise to God if he gives him the victory of a battle that he will kill the first thing that comes out of his house to greet him.

The man loved God so much he killed his daughter so that he could honer his promise.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

reasoning logic wrote:

I can tell you why I bring up the old testament and what seems to be immoral teachings in it but I can not speak on behalf of all non believers.

I do not see it as, "God does not do it that way anymore" I see the old testament the same way I see the culture of that time. We were a bunch of barbarians compared to what we think is moral today. '
I think that it was these barbarians of the past "our ancestors" who wrote the bible and It was not influenced by a moral or just God. Morals do not change but the collective mores do seem to for the society as a whole.

We have evolved past some of the horrific mores of the past and soon it will be time for those in the future to view us in a similar light, "the same light we are viewing the behaviors of our ancestors..

How is any of this significant if you do not have a belief about this God?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Do you really have an interest in truth and reality?

People such as myself claim that the bible "which is suppose to be the word of God "according to believers such as yourself" is riddled with accounts of immorality provoked by the God loving people in it.

Example a man of God makes a promise to God if he gives him the victory of a battle that he will kill the first thing that comes out of his house to greet him.

The man loved God so much he killed his daughter so that he could honer his promise.

See what I mean Frank? It does not answer the actual questions I have just asked....How is any of this, at all, relevant to anything, at all...If you have no belief about this God? What does it matter? Why even ask these questions or say these things? Who are you trying to convince otherwise? Who is listening to you?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

How is any of this significant if you do not have a belief about this God?

It is significant to me if I live in a society where others believe it to be the word of God and vote and are voted into office only to uphold some of these immoral teachings.
When people believe in this nonsense it only seems possible that they may not use logical reasoning in other areas of thought as well.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

But once again...Does this mean that you "do not believe" that this God or his believers are bullshit? No, it means you "believe" that they are....So you can't say that atheism is a lack of belief, or an "I do not believe"...because that is bullshit too...

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

The morality of Christianity IS established in the Old Testament.

And Mr E.W. Heaton in his book Everyday Life in Old Testament Times said that the bottom line of the OT was that slaves and freemen were equal creatures before God. "By birth and before God, all men are equal". And that such a morality was unknown in the countries surrounding Israel or any other known ones. It was unique and gave rise to the Constitution.

In which case, how do you get to that morality without the OT?

Mr Obama's appeal to a certain demographic might be similar to the appeal of Christianity to a demographic existing in the first centuries of our era.

Quote:

That is all I am saying...that any notion that the GOD of the Old Testament is not the GOD of the new, is absurd.

Didn't you see my quotation from Acts Frank? That the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT is absurd.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I, on the other hand, am responsive to a fault.

I don't find that Frank. You respond when it suits you.

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
I truly want to know from rl why. I'm not trying to start anything or be derogatory. I truly don't understand why the change is not enough and perhaps rl can fill me in.

I can tell you why I bring up the old testament and what seems to be immoral teachings in it but I can not speak on behalf of all non believers.

I do not see it as, "God does not do it that way anymore" I see the old testament the same way I see the culture of that time. We were a bunch of barbarians compared to what we think is moral today. '
I think that it was these barbarians of the past "our ancestors" who wrote the bible and It was not influenced by a moral or just God. Morals do not change but the collective mores do seem to for the society as a whole.

We have evolved past some of the horrific mores of the past and soon it will be time for those in the future to view us in a similar light, "the same light we are viewing the behaviors of our ancestors..

I appreciate you answering me and isn't that exactly what the New Testament would be doing in your view? We don't use swords today, we use nuclear bombs. We don't use daggers today, we use automatic weapons. We just call it civilized instead of barbaric.

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@Frank Apisa,

I didn't mean to make it sound like they were non-responsive Frank, and I do appreciate you answering the question. I really do.

In the Old Testament God was a God of wrath. I think anyone reading the bible would recognize that. I also believe that in the New Testament it is evident God is more a God of grace and not of wrath. That is where I get that. I didn't say a thing about things not offending Him in the New Testament. I said how He deals with it is different in the New Testament. He wipes ya out in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament, offers grace.

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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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