Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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If you can only say it is because you believe it is...Why would you ever believe, that a God exists if you do not believe he could?

I am not sure I understand you correctly but I think it is similar to the way I see the Easter bunny.

Now I do not believe that Easter bunnies exist but if some one were to give me a Easter bunny that laid golden eggs I would become a believer if I seen this Easter bunny lay a golden egg for me everyday. I would even try to find out if I could get more of these bunnies.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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No, I am asking you...Do you believe that the Grand Canyon is reality because you believe it is? Or do you believe it is reality because you do not believe it is?

If we were to take a person from a different part of the world who never seen or heard of the Grand Canyon and brought him to it without tilling him what we were going to do and when we got there would he believe it or experience it? What if he was near the edge and we started to push him over, would he try and resit going over the edge? Sure he would because he is experiencing reality not just a belief.

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@reasoning logic,

It depends on if they all thought it was true, or factual or evident...If they did, which it seems they would...It would be factual or evident because they believe that it is...

And if other people believed it was factual it would also be because they believe that it is...

I may have said it incorrectly again...Because I am not sure how to fully express what I meant...to be honest...But perhaps this is closer to what I meant..My point was, that there really is no such thing as a universally accepted factual truth...without a belief...Unless there is a belief that it is a factually univeral accepted truth...Because there is nothing that is known, or will ever be, that could be accepted as factual that does not take some kind of leap that it is true...Nothing can just be shown or revealed, and auto be truth...Because even truths can be subjective at times...Perhaps that is closer to what I actually meant to say...

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@reasoning logic,

Not just a belief...That is correct, because it is reality to him because he also believes that it is...Not that he thinks it is reality, or is experiencing it, because he does not believe that it is...

So you could never know a God or it would not prove itself unless you believed it could...Why would it have a reason to do otherwise?

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@reasoning logic,

But since you do not believe that an Easter bunny can lay Golden eggs...Do you think it would help your journey to find one, if you wanted too, if you went looking for them, by believing that they could exist? Or do you believe it is better to think it is not possible...and not believe it is possible? But you say if an easter bunny that lays golden eggs exists....just randomly proved itself to you..So that you can find it...You would then believe it is true? And get more of them, or whatever reason you wanted to believe that they exist... Does that sound logical to you?

Why would an easter bunny that lays golden eggs have to prove it exists or destroy you doubt if it truly does in fact exist?

Why would anything that is skeptical to you....Have to destroy your skepticism in order for you to believe it is valid enough in your own opinions?

Do you think that is a bit of a self serving view? Or attitude?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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No just a belief...That is correct, because it is reality to him because he also believes that it is...Not that he thinks it is reality, or is experiencing it, because he does not think it is...

OK so if we were to do the same thing with a cat or a dog it would be beliefs to them as well?

Now if we were to expose something different to this reality that is not living would it also believe? I know this sound crazy but even non living things can be seen to respond to the grand canyon. I know that all of this is viewed subjectively through our eyes but everyone from around the world can be seen to realize the grand canyon but this is not true about God. I would say this is because a God is not a part of reality.

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@reasoning logic,

What is reality to a cat or dog being pushed off the Grand Canyon? I would say that if it experienced it, and it was reality to them...It would be because they would believe it is...Would you disagree? How is it reality to even them if they can't say they believe that it is?

I disagree with you about non living things....I do not think that they experience reality of have beliefs....

If they are incapable of knowing what reality is, or what a belief is...How can they know what reality is? Or what a belief is? They can't...So they do not have any kind of reality....We do about them...because we do have a reality, and have beliefs....But thinking that they do have one because we do is a subjective thought...That once again can not be proven and would take a leap or belief that it is...

So how could something that is not living have a reality about it? It is impossible....

We have our own subjective reality about the reality of non living things...They curently do not have one about themselves...As they are not living...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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I disagree with you about non living things....I do not think that they experience reality of have beliefs....

If they are incapable of knowing what reality is, or what a belief is...How can they know what reality is? Or what a belief is? They can't...So they do not have any kind of reality....We do about them...because we do have a reality, and have beliefs....But thinking that they do have one because we do is a subjective thought...That once agian can not be proven and would take a leap or belief that it is...

Non living things do interact with each other even though they are seen through our subjective views, they are still a part of reality.

We can take a young child who has never seen a magnet but he will still see the metal shavings being attracted to the magnet "that will be a reality and he did not even have to believe it but rather see it. All children will see this if they have eyesight. We can see chemical reactions and other reactions of different types take place in response to the presence of the Grand Canyon.

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@reasoning logic,

But once he sees it, he believes it, and that is why he believes he is seeing it, and why it is a reality to him...

If he could not see it? How could it be a reality to him, or a belief...Unless he saw it happen, and believed it did? Is that a reality to you?

Non living things can certainly have reactions to other things...That does not mean that they have any reality at all that they are even doing it...

Once again, it is us who does have a reality and beliefs...and knows these things that "think" non living things actually do...

Can you prove to me what one non living thing has to say about reality or beliefs, that it has a reality or belief?

And I am not asking for what a living person has to say about non living things...

I am specifically asking you if you can show me what a non living thing had to say about reality and beliefs? And if it could is it non living or living?

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@reasoning logic,

I want to give you a couple of examples...And ask you some questions about them, so that I can see if I can understand your position of a non living things having a reality...

If a magnet is attracted to other magnetic metals....Do you think that the magnet, has a reality at all? Or is it just doing what it is doing because it does not know what reality is? And is unable to freely chose reality or belief so that it knows what reality is? If you think it has a reality, can you prove to me that it knows what it is from its own perspective?

And if you type something into a computer that is the reality of doing so...For us...Do you think that if someone was to create a very sophisticated Artifical intelligent thing....Do you think it has a reality? Or knows what reality actually is? Or do you still think it is just a very very sophisticated non living thing?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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I disagree with you about non living things....I do not think that they experience reality of have beliefs....

I did not say that they experience reality but they do interact with it even though they have no conscious.

You seem to be missing what I am sharing about reality and that is "reality can be subjectively observed by everything that has a brain.

Not everything with a brain can be seen experiencing what you call a God but yet everything with a brain can be seen experiencing all other known realities to man.

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@reasoning logic,

What are you saying then? Do things that interact with reality, with no conscious, have a reality at all? Or is it our subjective views that they are interacting with reality...with no conscious? If they have a reality how do they explain that they do? By interacting with reality while not being alive? Or is this our own reality about them since we know we have reality?

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Not everything with a brain can be seen experiencing what you call a God but yet everything with a brain can be seen experiencing all other known realities to man.

How do you know they can not see experiencing God? Are you certain? Or is it reality to them that they can not? Because they believe that they can not?

What other realities can you name that everyone can be seen to experience, that do not require people to believe that that they can experience them?

And if you can not do it...How could anyone think they can experience a God if they do not believe he is real, or exists? They can't...So they do not experience a God because they do not believe that they could...

He could make it known if he wanted to do it...But if he did, why would anyone want to expereince what he has to show us?

They would not, and he knows all of this...And is the reason why he does not do it...

If your not willing to believe he could exist...Why is he going to prove to you that he does...If you don't think he could? If he did that, he would care about his own ego or thoughts, than the people who he created to be with him forever...

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@reasoning logic,

Being able to see all other known realities to man...But not being able to do so with God...Shows that there is one....Because nothing else that exists operates this way....And can break this foundation...Or alter it...So only a God could do the opposite of every other thing that exists? And nothing else could...And he knows what he is doing, and why he does it...And realizes that if you want to find him, you must want to go looking for him...

You can not simply observe him from every angle of reality...Without believing in him...because if you could....there is nothing special to this God, and he is not a God of anything...Since he is the same exact thing as everything else...

What would be a God to you? Something that everything else is? Or something that no one else can be?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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What are you saying then? Do things that interact with reality, with no conscious, have a reality at all? Or is it our subjective views that they are interacting with reality...with no conscious?

Didn't I say that it is our subjective views that are viewing it?

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Not everything with a brain can be seen experiencing what you call a God but yet everything with a brain can be seen experiencing all other known realities to man.

How do you know they can not see experiencing God? Are you certain?

Yes I am certain be cause if you noticed I used the words " Not everything with a brain" That would include me and others like me who have never subjectively seen what we would call a God.

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What other realities can you name that everyone can be seen to experience, that do not require people to believe that that they can experience them?

Well we could take you and your favorite pet and drop you off in the middle of the ocean and both of you would drown but your pet may not believe he will drown but the rest of us will know that he did.

Have you ever thought about investing your time in something different that might profit humanity?

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@reasoning logic,

It would include you and others? So then you do not think you have a brain?

What things that do not have a brain, can you say have a reality? And why would you say they have a reality?

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Well we could take you and your favorite pet and drop you off in the middle of the ocean and both of you would drown but your pet may not believe he will drown but the rest of us will know that he did.

He may not know what "drowing is" because it does not understand what that means....But I can gaurantee it will know that it is in fact drowning....And at some point believe it will...If it does...drown...

And the rest of you will know that it did, because you will believe that it did, once you knew it had...

Because drowning can be called, "dipping"...It would not make a difference...It would not know that it is doing that...By definition...But if it was happening...It would know that it is "dipping" or anything else it was called...Because it is living....and if it drowned, it would believe it was going too...before or while it did...without fully knowing what "drowning" means...

So you can't know if you do not believe...

I have looked into that kind of stuff mate...

I actually have a few stocks in machines that improve gas miliage...And have some stocks that are the first to the rights to electric gas stations in China....Hoping they will come here...

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@reasoning logic,

Just give me one example of something...You know...Because you do not believe you know? Or because you do not believe you think you know it?

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@reasoning logic,

I promise to you, and vow on my faith...that if you answer this question honestly, I will not use it against you or other atheists, because you had the utter courage, and guts to answer it honestly...Unlike many others...

Because I respect your honesty...

You think you know a God does not exist?

Do you think you know, and believe you know? Or believe you are correct? Or believe you think you know? Or believe you think you are correct?

Or would you honestly say that you think you know, but also do not believe you think you know this?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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Just give me one example of something...You know...Because you do not believe you know? Or because you do not believe you think you know it?

Spade I think you are correct that we all believe but do you think that believing in things that do not have the support of all things conscious is a good idea?

What I am trying to say if you are going to believe in something why not let it be something that can be seen by all conscious creatures by using your own subjective view? If not all conscious creatures can experience its presence "why believe it to be true?

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@reasoning logic,

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Spade I think you are correct that we all believe but do you think that believing in things that do not have the support of all things conscious is a good idea?

I think I have already explained a few times, that this God does have the support of everything conscious...and why I think he does...I just do not think that everyone realizes this...Or thinks it is correct...But it does not mean they do not think it...(in my opinion)

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What I am trying to say if you are going to believe in something why not let it be something that can be seen by all conscious creatures by using your own subjective view?

Because this thing would be incapable of letting all things know that it is something to believe...Because we would know it is true, and could do nothing but what it asked of us to do...And I think that people truly do not want to do this...And this God knows this, and gives us freedom and peace...to do what we want to freely do...Not really incapable...But it would violate free will...Should it actually do this? I can't say why I think it does not want to do that...Because I truly do not know why it choses not to violate free will for us...

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If not all conscious creatures can experience its presence "why believe it to be true?

They all can experience its presence...But they need to let go of only doing things that they want....And be willing to look for things they truly want to see because they want to do it...freely and are not forced...Just because...

Because if you go looking to find something that is not 100% shown...It is the ultimate sign of respect, and admiration...And worthyness...

That not even God could, or will judge or condemn you for doing...

Thank you for calling me spade... Wink

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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They all can experience its presence...But they need to let go of only doing things that they want....And be willing to look for things they truly want to see because they want to do it...freely and are not forced...Just because...

OK so what you are telling me is that all living creatures "Dogs cats, lizards and so on are doing what they want to do rather than believing a God exist?

What would be so wrong of a God showing himself to all of us atheists the way he has done to you? Do you think that you are such a special person that you should be given privileges that the rest of us skeptics do not get?

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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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