Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@farmerman,

Quote:

Jesus is the "Symbol" of the church. Hes like Uncle Sam.

There are billions of people who would not agree with that...And I do not either...

What is the point to having a symbol, who symbolizes the Church? if you do not ultimately believe that this symbol is real?

Clearly, if you back the Church...The acceptance of Christ is necessary...Otherwise you are not backing the Church at all...

Not if you actually understand what the Church even is...

Because the Church itself, teaches that the most important thing, is to accept Jesus Christ...And that it's mission is to emanate the life of Jesus...And that Jesus is the reason why those people are there, And what it even stands for...

If you can't say that you even do that...How are you backing the Church at all?

The answer is they are not...

Though they may think they are...

You can't just back it for social reasons, but disregard the most important thing it has to offer...And what makes it even operate...

And think that that is truly backing it up...

Part of backing it up, and it comes with the territory, or the nature of the beast...Is to embrace Jesus Christ...And is the one and only important thing you really have to do, that signifies you do back it up...

One would argue if you did everything else, but not that you have done nothing for it, and I would have to agree...Considering what Jesus actually means to people who embrace the Church...

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Why do you believe that people who believe in a God have some type of illness that is completely normal?

RL thinks he's right, I've never known anyone with such profound faith. In order for him to be right, he has to rationalise away others who don't think the same as him. By viewing them all as mentally ill he confirms his belief that he's right.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

The US is real. Does that mean that one of its symbols, Uncle Sam needs to be so?

Quite a few Catholic clergy (especially Jesuits and Christian Brothers) dont really believe that their " church's symbol incarnate" is
real. So what. Most religion is there just to provide a sense of community and identity to people who need it.
Course you dont agree with me but that doesnt make your belief any more credible than mine

3 Replies

@izzythepush,

Quote:

RL thinks he's right, I've never known anyone with such profound faith. In order for him to be right, he has to rationalise away others who don't think the same as him. By viewing them all as mentally ill he confirms his belief that he's right.

Is this true RL? What type of illness is that? Obsessive-compulsive?

0 Replies

@farmerman,

Quote:

The US is real. Does that mean that one of its symbols, Uncle Sam needs to be so?

No, but how does Uncle Sam really symbolize America?? Or do anything for it?

Do people use this "symbol" and say that they want to live in America because of Uncle Sam?

If they did, he is already more than a symbol, to them...And the only ones it really matters too...whether in existence or not...

That is why I reject that Jesus is a symbol like you have said...

Or it does not even matter if he is or not...

It is only important what the people who embrace the Church say about it...

And the Church says that he is the reason that the Church is even there...And the reason to go...And the only thing that you must do...To be one of them...And even be apart of the Church itself...If you are not doing that...You are not apart of the Church...I guess it is different if there are Churches who do not even believe that Jesus is real...And you definitely do belong to that Church...But it is not form of Christianity...Or the religion...that is just for fellowship if they believe that and gather together...

Quote:

Quite a few Catholic clergy (especially Jesuits and Christian Brothers) dont really believe that their " church's symbol incarnate" is
real.

Then there really is no point to even go...And they are not Christians at all...

Quote:

So what. Most religion is there just to provide a sense of community and identity to people who need it.

Most? What religion(s) do that? And does not believe that there is a God? or Gods? It must be nice to pick and chose what you like and do not about the religion you believe....But it does not work that way...Any true living God, is God because he does everything that it needs to do..Whether we like it or not...And part of what makes him God is that he is incomprehensible...If people of a certain religion understand everything there is to know about it...It is a bogus religion, or God...

Or it is not really a "religion" at all...

But more for fellowship...

Quote:

Course you dont agree with me but that doesnt make your belief any more credible than mine

Of course not...But it also means that just because you say that Jesus is like Uncle Sam does not make it any more credible either... Idea

What was the point of that? 2 Cents

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

Course you dont agree with me but that doesnt make your belief any more credible than mine

Of course not...But it also means that just because you say that Jesus is like Uncle Sam does not make it any more credible either... Idea

What was the point of that? 2 Cents

And I slightly disagree...If someone is a Christian...They have the most right to talk about what it actually means to be one...And what they believe...Because they are one...Because other people who are not one...Can comment...But if they are not one...They do not have the best understandings about it...Or even really understand what it fully even means to be one, as they are not....Just like I would not naturally be able to understand Islam, like a Muslim would...Or what an atheist thinks...

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

No, but how does Uncle Sam really symbolize America?? Or do anything for it?

No less than Santa Claus symbolizs the spirit of a holiday or Uncle Tom symbolizes anti=slavery sentiment. Im sure you can see Uncle Sams symbology. Im sure , if you go to a dcitionary there will be a reference to his symbolic purpose.

Quote:

Then there really is no point to even go...And they are not Christians at all...

They have needs for altruism and service (some of us have lived our lives fairly service-free and we dont have many opportunities to exercise this side of us). "Believing" in the symbol of their church (and/or the symbol of their order) doesnt have the same degree of imperative as
you seem to need.

Remember
The gods dont make the demands, the priests do"

As you can see, Im one of those who "Doubt" Christianity, as I do most religions and spiritual beliefs on gods and sons of gods and magic pigeons.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

what makes him God is that he is incomprehensible

Thats a great "copout" of the believers. They assert the incomprehemsibility of their gods and then develop entire liturgies and ceremonies that celebrate his "supposed actions" as chronicled by descendaents in his beliefs. Not very logical in my mind. Kinda circular in reasoning.

Quote:

And I slightly disagree...If someone is a Christian...They have the most right to talk about what it actually means to be one...And what they believe...Because they are one...Because other people who are not one...Can comment...But if they are not one

What if someone "Was one" at one time but is no longer? Does that confer any rights to critique the faith? Does it make that persons critiqueless valid because he or shes "Left the body"?

I THINK NOT.

If you see one version of Abrahamic religions, youve seen them all. Differences in ceremonies and primary "orders" of beliefs are immaterial to the overall validity of the principal symbols .
Islam celebrates Jesus along side Muhammed. Mughammed was just the last and the greatest of their messangers. Doesnt make Islams views any more or less valid to reality.

Monotheistic religions of the Abrahamic variety are all fascinating and all unproveable (or incomprehensible in your way of speaking). I find them merely as fine examples of social evolution from the Mousterian to the Anthropocene. Fascinating indeed.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Think about it....How could I honestly give you an in-depth understanding of Antisemitism...And what it means, what it feels like...What I think about it...How it affects people...How it can be stopped...If I am not even a Jew, and have never even experienced it? I can give you my honest opinions...But I am clearly not the best source on that...

Just like a Christian can give you the best insight on Jesus, and the Church...Again sh0wing why you would need to embrace Jesus to even understand the Church...And the same goes for me about atheism, or any other religion I do not embrace...

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

They have needs for altruism and service (some of us have lived our lives fairly service-free and we dont have many opportunities to exercise this side of us). "Believing" in the symbol of their church (and/or the symbol of their order) doesnt have the same degree of imperative as
you seem to need.

Coming from this Christians perspective...You are not a "Christian" If you do not believe that Jesus is the Lord...

For Whatever reasons they actually do go to a church...

It is fellowship...It is not religion...Or Christianity...

Or these people do not understand either of the 2...

0 Replies

@farmerman,

Quote:

What if someone "Was one" at one time but is no longer? Does that confer any rights to critique the faith? Does it make that persons critiqueless valid because he or shes "Left the body"?

I THINK NOT.

You are quite wrong in my opinion...If someone can say that they "were" but is not...Then they never were...even if they think they were...Or was...

And yes, it does make them less valid...Because if they never were...They they never fully understood it, at all...And are never going too, either...

You can not simply give up on faith...And be expected to have your opinions about the faith be openly accepted...Or thought to be an intellect about it...Or you can not expect other people to take you seriously that you ever were one...

Because it requires faith...to be one, and be faithful...The only way you could say that you understand it...And were one, and are one...Is if you still had faith...And always were one...And always are...If you drop your faith...You never were...

0 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I dont yield to the same "limitations" that you seem to celebrate. I think that antismitism, doesnt need anything more than a denial of a common respect for the sanctity of all life . I dont need to be a Jew to understand that there are evils abounding in many secular as well as religious beliefs.
I dont need to hide behind my ignorance of Judaism or my belief in a competing worldview to wish to defeat antismitism.
Anything different is silly and somewhat cowardly.

Youve now spent hundreds of pages preaching and I dont think anything youve said has resonated with folks. Youve ony maanaged to infuriate some and bore others. I think that You are missing LOGIC my friend, . Merely stressing a symbols worth as a prerequisite to even undesrtand your own worldview is an attempt at mounting a moral exceptionalist position. Youve really got no evidence to assert your moral exceptionalism and yur worldview doesnt stand up to logical critique because you seem to want to ignore the Historical nature of your derived doctrines and generic Christian ceremonies. History is fact, as is the underlying science that has compiled the history. As such, the documentation of your worldview doesnt stand up to really close inspection

2 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

History is fact

With the greatest respect FM, that's not true. History is the best guess based on the available evidence. True Historians try to be as factual as possible, but so much History is open to interpretation and guess work.

Quote:

For centuries, historians thought the Battle of Agincourt was an engagement in which the English army, though overwhelmingly outnumbered four to one by the French army, pulled off a stunning victory—a version especially popularised by Shakespeare's play Henry V. However, recent research by Professor Anne Curry using the original enrollment records, has brought into question this interpretation. Though her research is not finished, she has published her initial findings, that the French only outnumbered the English and Welsh 12,000 to 8,000. If true, the numbers may have been exaggerated for patriotic reasons by the English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

you understand my point. Fact is the best evidence at that time. Of course facts can change as better means of evidence collection and assessment become available.
Thats missing the point , your just poofing at semantics

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

This aint about the fuckin Battle of Agincourt, its about the fuckin existence and documentation and NEED for a symbol to define a worldview.

I dont **** with your posts , so please, let me continue with this

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Don't accuse me of poofery!

I disagree with your definition of fact. A fact is something that is true, like the square on the hypotenuse. If it's open to interpretation it's not a fact, just a best fit.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

whatever

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@farmerman,

I'm not ******* with your posts, just adding a bit of healthy scepticism.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Youve really got no evidence to assert your moral exceptionalism and yur worldview doesnt stand up to logical critique because you seem to want to ignore the Historical nature of your derived doctrines and generic Christian ceremonies.

Please tell me where I said this...Did this? Or why you think that I think this way? Or what makes you think that I think this way?

Quote:

Youve now spent hundreds of pages preaching and I dont think anything youve said has resonated with folks. Youve ony maanaged to infuriate some and bore others.

You are free to go mate...Just like everyone else is....I do not ever remember holding someone's head in a bucket of water to stay and read my posts? or others...

If someone does not like it here...Then by all means go...

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

...Did this? Or why you think that I think this way

Im sure youve read all the conflicting testaments, the conflicting methods of historiography, the finds on the TEstaments to Jesus at Nag Hamadi since the 1940s and later, archeological finds that seem to call into qiestion the sources of Jesus tales etc. You seem to sidestep all science and continually assert the sole validity of Testament.

Even your "You must believe in Jesus to comment on Christianity" is a copout to unquestioning submittal. Im sorry, I cant live like that, itd drive me nuts to ignore all the stuff that comes our of the divinity and archeology centers.

Quote:

You are free to go mate...Just like everyone else is....I do not ever remember holding someone's head in a bucket of water to stay and read my posts? or others...

But you are engaging in quote mining because the very point of that post was not (only) that you have infuriated some, BUT that because youve argued the way you did, youve not convinced anyone and youve not been logical in your argument. I like to throw that in as an observation of your approach.
Quote mining is something noone can stop but we can call attention to it if its used disengenuously

Way back, early in this thread you took up some denial tp scientific findings that conflicted with your Christian beliefs. I argued a bit but we seemed to go nowhere and truthfully, I got bored because neither you nor i plumbed any new arguments . Ill see hether we can sustain a collegial disagreement without getting personal herein. I have given you my pedigree of Christian "History of my life"
(In actualitymy family history has gone from Judaism in the old country to Orthodox Christian to Roman Catholic in my pparents lifetime, so, wjile I had the benefits of a multi religious heritage, I only had Roman Catholicism to thank for my beliefs and nons. I feel then, quite qualified to discuss the heritage bases of my own journey through and out of Christianity.

1 Reply

Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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