Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@reasoning logic,

Hiya RL

Thanks for asking.

It's Spring here now, so the weather is beautiful... Working my butt off as usual but smelling the roses. We had a fantastic day out the other day, lasted 10 hrs Wink

Beautiful wineries, stunning lunch and we all came back here.

Shall look at those threads, thank you.

He came back, did you not see his post to you, purely saying RL? After, I had mentioned him.. there was no discussion I don't think for him to join into, he may feel a bit lost there. And, his other thread haha Spendi......................

He'll type away again when he is ready, I think he misses you asking how he is Wink

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@FOUND SOUL,

I some how or another missed your reply.

Spring is a wonderful part of the year.

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We had a fantastic day out the other day, lasted 10 hrs Wink Beautiful wineries, stunning lunch and we all came back here.

Sounds like you enjoyed yourselves. It is always nice to have time off to spend with others.

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He came back, did you not see his post to you, purely saying RL?

I seen! He did not seem to up beet I wonder what may have him down.

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I think he misses you asking how he is

Yeah I kinda miss the same from him.

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@reasoning logic,

I hate people asking me how I am. "I'm here" I usually answer. It's a damn silly question.

I remember one night in the pub when some silly sod piped up "Are you alright then spendi?". He probably hadn't heard himself talking for 20 seconds.

I asked him did he want my blood sugar levels and cholesterol rating? I was feeling that way out I presume. After that I started greeting him with "are you alright Dennis?" sarcastically.

It worked.

I say "Hello". And then "I see Charlotte is looking a pretty picture tonight". Which fetches Charlotte from the other end of the bar to serve me. Barmaids are all ears. Charlotte can hear her name being mentioned when the band is playing "Get It On". She can pull blokes as easy as she pulls pints.

Christianity has its back to wall where Charlotte is concerned. She doesn't doubt it. She never gives it a moment's thought.

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@reasoning logic,

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Ryan Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

How have you been doing???????

I have been missing the intellectual conversations that you have always added to this forum. Wink

I miss you too mate! and all my other friends...As well as the conversations...

What would you like to talk about?

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@Atom Blitzer,

Nice pic!

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@FOUND SOUL,

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That's it? To everyone ? Smile Not goooood enough....

SS hun....Been very busy...

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@reasoning logic,

I got one...What do you believe, is going to happen, on December 21st, 2012??

Do you believe, the world, is going to end?

I think, I have a pretty good idea, what you will say, and how, you will answer, that question...But I am not positive...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

It is good to hear from you Ryan. Very Happy

What have you been up to?

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What would you like to talk about?

I am not sure exactly why but I have been pondering the idea about how it is written that no one should be eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

To me this idea is that no one should question what the true nature of morality is.

It seems that some one did not want people thinking about moral philosophy but rather believing in every word that came out of the master's mouth.

God told Adam he could freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden except one — “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

Not allowing a person to have a more in depth knowledge about morality or at least consider it seems a bit extreme to me.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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I got one...What do you believe, is going to happen, on December 21st, 2012??

Do you believe, the world, is going to end?

It could but I see the probability about the same as the world ending tomorrow.
I do think that some people will die on that day just as everyday and I see that as the end of their world.

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@reasoning logic,

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It is good to hear from you Ryan.

It is good to hear from you, too, mate...

I think, that you are missing, the whole point, of the whole test...

By what God, ultimately, allowed to happen...He not only, let people understand the nature of trusting the master's mouth...And what faith, even is...But he also, allowed Adam, and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge, and fully understand, what is morally correct, and what is not...And what the ramifications were, for not obeying him...But reasoning in our hearts and minds...( in his eyes) (even if, it was wrong, he can use evil for good) Remember, he sent his only begotten Son to the Cross, to redeem us from Sin...

Therefor, giving us free will, And also making us beneath him, and also making us, worthy of being the highest creation ever...and even worthy of watching to rebuke...And exceedingly great when we obey him, and disregard our own selfish ideas of morality...In the blink of an eye...Otherwise, we would have been, just another animal...

And we would not, be able, to understand, any of it...

Everything he allowed, was highly calculated...With a purpose...

Do you believe, that God, did not know, that, when he said, do not eat, of this tree, that they were going too?

This does not make him flawed...It goes along with omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent...It makes him able to give us free will, but also shows, there is one way to find him, and it is thru faith...And that to trust the masters mouth...Would severely help us, and not hinder us...

All freely, at the sake, of our own hands...And choices...

But we, as great, as we are...Would have to, freely chose, this notion...Otherwise, it has no effect...

It cheapens him, and it destroys, how righteous we are, in his eyes...

And what his, ultimate plan, for humans, even was, is, and is going to be...

Is this the best way?

I would have to say, because he chose it, it is...

Could he have done it another? And been all the omni's?

Yes...

Why did he chose, the way he did?

Because morally, it must be the perfect way, in his eyes... Even if it does not, fully, make sense to us...

That is exactly, what I am trying to say, above...With my opinions...

It did everything it needed to do...And did it, morally correct...

So that, he is, who he is, and we are, who we are...

And he knows this...And so do we...

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@reasoning logic,

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It could but I see the probability about the same as the world ending tomorrow.
I do think that some people will die on that day just as everyday and I see that as the end of their world.

Ditto...

And I especially liked the bold text above! I think you said that, elegantly...

It is rather, a sad thought...And I do not like the end of their worlds part...

But I think, you hit the nail, on the head, on that one...

I do not agree, it will be, the full ending, to them...Like you may...

But I do believe, you and I, see it similar, although different...

I am sure you knew this...But, I do not believe, any living person, knows the exact day, or time...

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@reasoning logic,

Ignoring everything, but the last sentence on morality, I'd like to convey my viewpoint and tell me what you think about it.

Any "in-depth" attitude towards morality are only subjective interpretation on how to act in more and more complex circumstances.

In poor environments, people won't survive holding onto morals which you may have strict adherence to, as you're of course better off in the social ladder. This leads me to believe that morality is just a social construction, so it is subjective.
For example, what is your moral view point of a man killing another man?
You'd would say killing or murder is bad, and then also suggest that it is a universal ethical belief that the man committed a terrible act.
But say what if the story went along the lines that a man killed another man to feed his starving family from the drought and famine widespread over a nation, and saved a family of three children and a mother for a week.
Does this scenario hold the same as the first one?
What is more moral? Letting a family of five perish by not participating in murder or letting a man live to have the family of five to die.
I believe this example that I told (although extreme, it is not a far fetched notion and once it may have happened at one point of time or another in our short history on earth) will have differing viewpoints, and thus be subjective. You will disagree with this, while you're sitting at the comforts of your chair in a comfortable home, but then that only further proves my conclusion that not everything across cultures or even in the same neighborhood will be perceived the same.
There isn't a clear answer, and moral and ethical dilemmas are very much subjective depending on an individual's perception of an issue.

What you claim with the tree of knowledge seems to be indicative that morality is universal and something to be "explored."
Exploring morality would be great if the case was true and it was universal. But since morality is not, but rather subjective, exploring morality is akin to putting an individual in more and deplorable conditions, then asking them to take a path, and after they have taken the path, to prove to themselves and society that the path they have taken is justified and "moral."

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@Enzo,

That said, it is safe to say that if a condition existed where everyone was at peace with themselves and others around them (universal peace), there is no need for morality.
No morality and absence of universal peace leads to a dog eat dog world scenario where the idea of survival of the fittest reigns supreme.
Morality and the absence of universal peace leads to a dog eat dog world attitude prevalent at the underbelly of the society, and likely abuse of power by those who are higher up in the social ladder, and these actions, of course, "morally justified."

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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I think, that you are missing, the whole point, of the whole test...

OK so you see this as a test, I am cool with that but I see it as a bunch of people coming from down out of the trees and trying to make sense of things and others trying to deceive them into believing them.

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By what God, ultimately, allowed to happen...He not only, let people understand the nature of trusting the master's mouth..

OK so God allowed them to eat from the tree and their eyes were opened and they could see both good and evil and they seen that they were naked so God made clothes for them? Did God think that their nakedness was so bad that he needed to cover it up. If so why didn't God make clothes for them in the first place?

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he also, allowed Adam, and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge, and fully understand, what is morally correct, and what is not...And what the ramifications were,

Why wouldn't he have wanted them to have known this knowledge in the first place?

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he sent his only begotten Son to the Cross, to redeem us from Sin...

You really do need a lot of faith to believe this because we have no evidence.

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Everything he allowed, was highly calculated...With a purpose...

again you really do need a lot of faith to believe this because we have no evidence.

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Do you believe, that God, did not know, that, when he said, do not eat, of this tree, that they were going too?

Ryan you know that I do not believe in a God so why would you ask this question?

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This does not make him flawed...It goes along with omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent...It makes him able to give us free will, but also shows, there is one way to find him, and it is thru faith...And that to trust the masters mouth...Would severely help us, and not hinder us...

If a fellow human being tried this on another human being they would be considered to be joking around or to be psychotic.

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But we, as great, as we are...Would have to, freely chose, this notion...Otherwise, it has no effect...

It cheapens him, and it destroys, how righteous we are, in his eyes...

And what his, ultimate plan, for humans, even was, is, and is going to be...

Is this the best way?

When we get to heaven do you think that we will still fallow his teaching like "how to treat our slaves and if we give our slaves a wife and they have children that those children will still be our property if we are the master?

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And he knows this...And so do we...

Come on Ryan you know that this is not true. "WE" we do not know this, this is what you believe, I and many others do not.

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@reasoning logic,

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OK so God allowed them to eat from the tree and their eyes were opened and they could see both good and evil and they seen that they were naked so God made clothes for them? Did God think that their nakedness was so bad that he needed to cover it up. If so why didn't God make clothes for them in the first place?

I can't answer that one, I am not God...

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Why wouldn't he have wanted them to have known this knowledge in the first place?

I d0 not believe a human would understand, any other way, than the way he did it...

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Ryan you know that I do not believe in a God so why would you ask this question?

Because I wanted you answer...You know I do not believe in theistic psychosis' But I gave my opinions about them...Are you saying you are incapable of answering, because you do not believe? What makes you "think" that a God is not real then? That says to me, that you "think" there "may" be a God...But maybe are not sure...I am not trying to tell you who you are...But once again, it seems like you are an agnostic to me....

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If a fellow human being tried this on another human being they would be considered to be joking around or to be psychotic.

Would any other human being be able to do what God had done? If they could, please tell me how you think they could? If you say they can't, then I think you may understand why a Human would be laughed at...But yet this God is worshiped by billions...

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When we get to heaven do you think that we will still fallow his teaching like "how to treat our slaves and if we give our slaves a wife and they have children that those children will still be our property if we are the master?

I could not even begin to guess about it...I would have to say, I believe that Heaven is much different, in many ways, than Earth is...

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Come on Ryan you know that this is not true. "WE" we do not know this, this is what you believe, I and many others do not.

How can I know it is not true, if I do not even know what you know? Or what you believe? 2 Cents

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@Enzo,

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Ignoring everything, but the last sentence on morality

Are you a Christian?

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I'd like to convey my viewpoint and tell me what you think about it.

OK

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Any "in-depth" attitude towards morality are only subjective interpretation on how to act in more and more complex circumstances.

If I took a knife and cut your throat it may be a subjective experience to you but anyone standing around will be witness to the objective immoral act that was done an they will see the blood they will see that you no longer have a heart beat and that you will be dead.

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In poor environments, people won't survive holding onto morals

You are speaking as if morality is something objective that can be hold on to. It seems that I read some where that the kingdom of morality is at hand, I can only guess that they to thought that it was something that should be reached for and grabbed a hold of too.

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This leads me to believe that morality is just a social construction

Oh there that word believe, I find it odd how so many believers find morality unattainable.

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You'd would say killing or murder is bad

Let me guess you would say that it is good.

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But say what if the story went along the lines that a man killed another man to feed his starving family from the drought and famine widespread over a nation, and saved a family of three children and a mother for a week.
Does this scenario hold the same as the first one?

Yep I was correct you do think killing is good. I think it is always bad even when you have no choice.

Why not talk about moral issues at hand "here in reality" and deal with the dilemmas when you come to them?

We more than able to feed the whole world but we don't.

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What is more moral?

If you are a Christian, "what sin is greater than than the other? If you know this, your question on morality should be easy for you to work out.

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@Enzo,

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That said, it is safe to say that if a condition existed where everyone was at peace with themselves and others around them (universal peace), there is no need for morality.

Would it be similar to saying if everyone had perfect vision and no visual problems that we would not need light or colors?

Maybe one day we wont need these things and still be able to exist.

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@reasoning logic,

When you're quoting me, why do you break up my sentences rather than quote it as a whole sentence?
Are you trying to twist my meaning that I'm trying to convey?

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In poor environments, people won't survive holding onto morals which you may have strict adherence to, as you're of course better off in the social ladder.

Other than that the rest of your criticism is far to jumbled and scattered to even comment on.
I understand your idea because I have an open mind, a thing you seem to lack seeing that you're already putting words in my mouth and changing my conclusion to better suit your interests.

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@reasoning logic,

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Come on Ryan you know that this is not true. "WE" we do not know this, this is what you believe, I and many others do not.

How can I know it is not true, if I do not even know what you know? Or what you believe?

Let me guess? I could not even begin to know, right? Is that the point? Then it goes both ways...You can not, simply, sit down, with me, or any faithful believer of God, and "think" that you can get a better understanding, from them, simply because, they believe, and you do not...Gods mind is incomprehensible...Therefor, No one could possibly, understand everything, that he knows...

And the only way that one could find him, is by looking for him themselves...

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@Enzo,

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you're already putting words in my mouth and changing my conclusion to better suit your interests.

Exactly what was it that I put into your mouth? Was it because I think that you find killing to be moral in some circumstances?

Just because some one may think that they have no other choice doesn't make it moral from what I understand.

1 Reply

Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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