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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

 
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 03:54 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
I agree with you....You can never change anyone's thinking...And all everyone is doing, is giving their own opinions...Or beliefs....


Morning Spades Smile Actually, that's a bit out of context on my behalf, you can certainly change someones thinking absolutely.. You can't necessarily change someones belief, if their belief is so strong.. We think all the time, backwards and forwards, it's part of what we are made up of.

I think if you are open minded and your belief is not 100%? That is where you can change someones thinking. But, at what cost. ie) Because what they stated had proof, facts? Or, because what they stated rang true for some reason and it's a better thing to believe, or because something occured in their lives that makes them question.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 07:52 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
It seems that there are some beautiful women in Australia and they too will often take people as they see them.

I would have to say, that most Australian people, are beautiful....Not that anywhere else, there is not...
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 07:53 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
All is well Ryan I hope the same for you.

Thanks for caring mate! Things have been great for me....
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 07:56 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Morning Spades Smile Actually, that's a bit out of context on my behalf, you can certainly change someones thinking absolutely.. You can't necessarily change someones belief, if their belief is so strong.. We think all the time, backwards and forwards, it's part of what we are made up of.

I think if you are open minded and your belief is not 100%? That is where you can change someones thinking. But, at what cost. ie) Because what they stated had proof, facts? Or, because what they stated rang true for some reason and it's a better thing to believe, or because something occured in their lives that makes them question.

Yes, I agree with you hun...And probably said it too fast myself...You can change people thinking...And I would hope people would be open to this...So that everyone can learn...I agree with you, you probably will never be able to change a person's beliefs...
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 08:17 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:

Krumple in my experience?

It is called attention seeking.. Wanting acknowledgement, needing love, feeling lost attention seeking. You say she was 13 at the time of her story.. I wonder what happened to her at 13 that she needed to use this to get attention Smile

Sometimes you have to think deeper.


The problem is her story was used in a movie which claims all the stories in this movie are true. She lied. Hundreds of thousands of people saw this movie would assume what she said was true but her story is filled with lies. This is a problem. Not only that but she sells books telling her lies even more. It is more than just attention seeking when you pollute society with stories that are not true.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 09:22 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
The problem is her story was used in a movie which claims all the stories in this movie are true. She lied. Hundreds of thousands of people saw this movie would assume what she said was true but her story is filled with lies. This is a problem. Not only that but she sells books telling her lies even more. It is more than just attention seeking when you pollute society with stories that are not true.

So, are you saying, that you deny, the holocaust happened, because of this, one case? Or potential cases, like it? Where people are being fraudulent and know they are...(if it is true) opposed to the amount of evidence that says it happened?...And what people, actually experienced, is true?

Don't you think, that what has been documented, for the millions, that had, to go thru it...then...till now...Is much more "evidence" to support it did happen? Then not? And the 350,000 survivors today? As in, a few cases, where people, are perhaps, being fraudulent, just to make money, or something?

That is like saying, that, The women in the Movie the Titanic, lying, or embellishing her experiences, on the Titanic, to make money, or whatever reason, she wanted, to do it = "it" not being true? When you would have people who survived, and would tell you exactly what happened...And in this case...It is many, many, more people...

We do not even have that with the Titanic, but not many will tell you, they do not believe it even happened....

Check this website out...And all the links...

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/survivor.htm

"There are 350,000 survivors of the Holocaust alive today...
There are 350,000 experts who just want to be useful with the remainder of their lives. Please listen to the words and the echoes and the ghosts. And please teach this in your schools."


That is still, a very large amount, of people...

Many more than Pearl Harbor...9/11...Titanic...etc...

Do you believe these things took place? And if you do, if someone was trying to lie, to make money (as you say) Would this make the whole travesty untrue? Or better, that it still did, but someone was lying about it? (if they are)? And thousands can vouch, it did...opposed to this one person, who "may" be lying? Or lets say, 50 of them?....50/350,000???
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 09:40 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
So, are you saying, that you deny, the holocaust happened, because of this, one case? Or potential cases, like it? Where people are being fraudulent and know they are...(if it is true) opposed to the amount of evidence that says it happened?...And what people, actually experienced, is true?


You just like the rest of them have no idea what you are talking about. Why not go over to the thread and actually find out where I stand before you say that I "deny" the holocaust happened. Before you build up a bunch of strawmen and attack a position in which I do not hold.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 09:40 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
So, are you saying, that you deny, the holocaust happened, because of this, one case?


Ryan please take a little more time to read this thread of yours because you will see that there is a quote from Krumple that answered your question a few pages back.

Krumple's quote.
Quote:
This is the thing. People quickly assume that I am a holocaust denier because I question the validity of the numbers and how some died. I have never claimed to be nor would I consider myself one yet I get branded one as soon as I say things don't add up. I never said there weren't massive deaths but I question the way in which those victims died.
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 09:55 pm
@Krumple,
krumple wrote:
You just like the rest of them have no idea what you are talking about. Why not go over to the thread and actually find out where I stand before you say that I "deny" the holocaust happened. Before you build up a bunch of strawmen and attack a position in which I do not hold.


reasoning logic wrote:
Ryan please take a little more time to read this thread of yours because you will see that there is a quote from Krumple that answered your question a few pages back.



OK sorry...In what exact way do you believe they died? Do you believe that millions, did not die, the way we know, because of what this woman has said, and done? With "maybe" 50 others, who "may" be doing the same thing?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:04 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Ryan, If you will look at the times that both Krumple and reasoning logic replied to you with the same message you will see that they are both within the same minute... Why do you think that is? Is this just a coincidence?

I will tell you why! They are both messengers of God. That is correct I am God and I am telling you that you need to start questioning everything that you thought I was. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:30 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
OK sorry...In what exact way do you believe they died? Do you believe that millions, did not die, the way we know, because of what this woman has said, and done? With "maybe" 50 others, who "may" be doing the same thing?


I don't want to bring that discussion over here. All the answers to your questions are over there in that thread. If you really want to know, go look it over. I'm not going to answer any more questions on that topic in this thread. Found brought it over and I was responding to what she said but I didn't have any intentions in bringing the discussion over here. I would have liked more had she made the statements on the topic over there rather than get the discussion moved over here. So once again if you want your question answered go look it up over there.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 11:16 pm
@Krumple,
Given your bashing over there, and the type of person I am, why would I have written what I wrote here, over there for you to be more bashed, if they chose to? It's not in my nature. Plus see last paragraph, it referenced a question about you, by Spades and that was my reply.

At least I took the time , alot of time, to read what your case was against there.

Also, with the woman who claimed all these things that happened to her at 13, which you have stated are false and she is writing books on it, making $$$ perhaps she still was an attention seeker that then got fame and you know what fame can do in regards to "going to your head" greed comes into it... If this was the case? Then there should be a whole lot of places telling everyone she is bogus, reports even and sites pulling down her material or publishes reneging on further publications.. Do you know for certain it's lies? Do you want to link her here.

RL OMG Smile Sorry, I see humor in that. Or, you two are the same person Smile

Spades, it's true. I was purely answering you of my thoughts on Krumple that she is not evil and how I would approach someone like that, consequently I had to read what she was writing to try to see how I felt and then reply to you. That is the purpose of why I wrote about that particular thread here, nothing more..

Krumple is correct though, take the time instead of questioning and read what someone is saying, cause they always bite you in the bum in you don't Wink
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 11:51 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:

Given your bashing over there, and the type of person I am, why would I have written what I wrote here, over there for you to be more bashed, if they chose to?


I do appreciate that you are concerned about me getting bashed for my statements. But I know when it comes down to it there will always be someone who will bash me even if I am not challenging a tender subject such as the holocaust.

FOUND SOUL wrote:

At least I took the time , alot of time, to read what your case was against there.


Part of the problem is that I wasn't going to originally but even after I did present my case the main person calling me out didn't even take the time to look over my claims and just continued pretending that I had no argument.

FOUND SOUL wrote:

Also, with the woman who claimed all these things that happened to her at 13, which you have stated are false and she is writing books on it, making $$$ perhaps she still was an attention seeker that then got fame and you know what fame can do in regards to "going to your head" greed comes into it... If this was the case? Then there should be a whole lot of places telling everyone she is bogus, reports even and sites pulling down her material or publishes reneging on further publications.. Do you know for certain it's lies? Do you want to link her here.


Sure I'll take some time and provide it for you but you know what is going to happen? The discussion will ultimately end up over here if I do.


FOUND SOUL wrote:

Spades, it's true. I was purely answering you of my thoughts on Krumple that she is not evil and how I would approach someone like that, consequently I had to read what she was writing to try to see how I felt and then reply to you. That is the purpose of why I wrote about that particular thread here, nothing more..


There are a lot of subjects that I tackle and some of them tend to cross which doesn't look very good because it makes me look as if I have some discriminatory hatred but I don't. I just want to shed light on spots of inaccuracies or false data. But I get branded as being racist or have some anger towards a particular group because some things overlap.

FOUND SOUL wrote:

Krumple is correct though, take the time instead of questioning and read what someone is saying, cause they always bite you in the bum in you don't Wink


Thank you for pointing this out again. I think it is something that is neglected a lot on this board and would like to keep reminding people that this is one of the major problems. When someone doesn't take the time to find out what is actually being stated and then respond accordingly but in this case they assume a position and attack it. It makes the threads long and meaningless because I spend a whole lot of time defending myself and trying to remind the reader that I didn't even make those claims they are attacking. It wastes time and effort and makes the board messy.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 12:57 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I will tell you why! They are both messengers of God. That is correct I am God and I am telling you that you need to start questioning everything that you thought I was. Evil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad

You been drinking tonight mate? Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green 2 Cents
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:01 am
@Krumple,
I apologize...I will read the thread...So that I can fully see what you wrote...And what you actually meant, in my perspectives, by what you have said...I did read a bit of it, but I guess I should have read more....Sorry...
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:30 am
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:
Then there should be a whole lot of places telling everyone she is bogus, reports even and sites pulling down her material or publishes reneging on further publications.. Do you know for certain it's lies? Do you want to link her here.


First I just want to say that I am apprehensive of stating this over here in this thread. It's going to spiral out of control. Let's hope I'm wrong.

I want to start by introducing you to this woman, Irene Weisberg Zisblatt who claims to be a holocaust survivor. Now this is just ONE example and I am not basing my other data off her testimony alone.

I would like to address first her story about her brush with the gas chamber.
This is her story unedited:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sK5AEd8bCw&feature=relmfu&bpctr=1345362458

The details:

The chamber was full and she was being moved backwards towards the door. Which means that she was filed in and in some way into the chamber and perhaps because of her young age perhaps she was being systematically pushed to "safety" towards the door.

However; there is a problem. If it was being packed in so tight as she suggests then people would have been filing in as she was moving backward. So she get's stuck in the door.

She claims the room get's "narrow" the closer you get to the door. The physical room this is not true. So she could mean that the way the people were packed into the room it became narrower and narrower for her.

But she claims she was part of the problem. The guards were calling for the door guard to hurry and close the door and she was in the way. He couldn't cram her inside because the room was packed full. How did she get out but couldn't be crammed back in?

So a guard just grabs her and lets her go? Really? He just pulls her out and let's her run off? No other guards see her or stop her? She can just freely run back up the entrance steps? She goes outside in the snow and hides under the eave of the "changing room" section of the "gas chamber" or crematorium I entrance.

Crematorium I entrance does not work how she claims. I have studied the design of crematorium I and they do not match her descriptions. I do toss this out because she could have been mistaken which building she was in because her descriptions do match that of crematorium II.

The first video link I post above is of her per-interview for a movie on holocaust survivors. This next video challenges her statements between her pre-interview and her post interview which makes it into the movie.

This is her video of her bob wire lie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1G-DBpaPyM&feature=related

Now what is my motivation for pointing this out? It is to show that people have motivation to lie. I am not saying she wasn't there or wasn't a prisoner or didn't suffer from the holocaust. I am saying the details she presents are not factual or accurate. She is clearly lying about certain details and it only weakens the case because it brings into question if anyone else has lied. There are other cases that reveal false or inaccurate data. She is not the only one who has lied about certain things. Yet no one challenges her claims and they are taken to be 100% factual and honest truth of events.

So what is my motivation? To show that people will lie even during events that are tragic.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:38 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
Part of the problem is that I wasn't going to originally but even after I did present my case the main person calling me out didn't even take the time to look over my claims and just continued pretending that I had no argument


It was quite a lot of work that you put in to that particular post actually.. I think you have to have the mindset to digest it all and add it all up, or not. I also think some people hang onto a word, and from there on don't listen. I would have continued the challenge and ask them why they feel your theory was wrong by re-pointing out, various things over and over.. I know when someone puts a considerable effort into something and it's not appreciated it's a let down but maybe it's a matter of where you post these things? Where there is interest in breaking things down? There are if not, nearly all, a high amount of Intelligence on this Forum, there is also "anything goes" Smile

Quote:
Sure I'll take some time and provide it for you but you know what is going to happen? The discussion will ultimately end up over here if I do.
You know that intelligence bit? It's here too by players on this thread, so ultimately, we always change the subject. Sheez the boys go on and on and on about some soccer thing IDK Wink Alternatively you could start your own thread on it, and we'll find it.

Quote:
There are a lot of subjects that I tackle and some of them tend to cross which doesn't look very good because it makes me look as if I have some discriminatory hatred but I don't. I just want to shed light on spots of inaccuracies or false data. But I get branded as being racist or have some anger towards a particular group because some things overlap.
Well, that's common sense you are still tackling them, you haven't come to the total conclusion. Can I make an observation? Perhaps it's because you are making them sound like 100% factual instead of your thoughts and what you are tackling. This thread keeps coming up with yes, but. No one is right or wrong. etc. Because it's opinions without facts, as the facts can't really be presented.

Just wondering, that's all if you were to approach it differently as your thoughts and why and if anyone can see that, or not, then there would be conversation instead.

Quote:
Thank you for pointing this out again. I think it is something that is neglected a lot on this board and would like to keep reminding people that this is one of the major problems.
Well you obviously have "balls" punt intended, or else you would have left a long time ago.

I have a fair advantage I guess, my only other Forum relates to relationships and problems in life on any facet mainly, consequently I take the time to understand someone. Mind you, I may have a go first off, here cause it seems to rub off on you for some reason !~

I am still chuckling over RL's comment, don't know why ..........

Spades, good for you to digress and apologise I knew you would Smile

Thing is like I say, we are all human, we all have our own beliefs and we can all converse if we take the time to do it right, maybe Krumple (seems she is now) will just get actually join in converstations as well here and not feel you are what ever she has felt... And, hang about and see further . LOL's do you remember when I first starting writing on this thread? I must re-read one day took me a while to change my thought pattern huh.. But, I did. See, you can change thoughts .

0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:47 am
@Krumple,
Krumple, well I think Spades will just go WT? If he ends up with people pulling this apart if that is what you are worried about, but smile.

Thanks for taking the time to find it, obviously it will take me some time to look at it all and I will RL watch the 30 min video too ..

But, one thing that just jumped out straight away before watching it, is .. When and where does fear come into something and how does that affect our brain, in it's thought patterns? I mean.. Let's say for instance, you are believing she was there but what exactly occured did not occur and you are questioning all of that and believe that to be the case.

What if, at 13, you aren't Adult enough to think like an Adult. You view things a little differently, you go with feeling in your explanation rather than 100% facts plus add in fear and being pushed into people, why? The fear alone of that, could easily make a 13 year old girl even forget some things and in trying to remember gets it wrong. That makes complete sense to me. I thought you were meaning that she blatantly lied for 1) attention or 2) money. It seems it's more to do with occurance and how it could or could not have been that way. What if it was more to do with the above? Fear and youth as apposed to lying?

But I will check the links before replying further ... So I can confirm that's still my gut feeling or not.

Lucky it's Sunday!
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 01:57 am
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:
What if, at 13, you aren't Adult enough to think like an Adult. You view things a little differently, you go with feeling in your explanation rather than 100% facts plus add in fear and being pushed into people, why? The fear alone of that, could easily make a 13 year old girl even forget some things and in trying to remember gets it wrong. That makes complete sense to me. I thought you were meaning that she blatantly lied for 1) attention or 2) money. It seems it's more to do with occurance and how it could or could not have been that way. What if it was more to do with the above? Fear and youth as apposed to lying?


Sure, you bring up a good point. Fear. It could have all been a dream. That she wasn't actually led to the chambers at all but her overwhelming fear of not knowing what will happen to her.

My point is that eye witness testimony is not trust worthy because people lie. Like you said, fears can bend or skew truths. This is why eye witness testimony in court cases is rarely ever trusted to be accurate to the events. People have motivations and impost their fears or discrimination into their stories.

She has written books and many thousands of people read her books and assume that her words are truthful to actual events. This is problematic and dangerous.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Aug, 2012 02:20 am
@Krumple,
I am about to look at those links.

If fear does play a major role in how someone acts, reacts, thinks, remembers... Is that bending the truth? Or, "trying to recall as best as you can"? Just a question for you.

Quote:
People have motivations and impost their fears or discrimination into their stories.
Motivation yes. I can't recall any court cases whereby the perpetrator has imposted their fears to win.. Discrimination however, is racism and off course that's a mentality not a fear. One could argue that they are fearful of a certain nationality for example, but then it would be " I feared for my life because".. I fired him because he is gay? (JC shhh) .. That's discrimination and that's easy to locate because the person he/she did it too will testify same.

Quote:
She has written books and many thousands of people read her books and assume that her words are truthful to actual events. This is problematic and dangerous.
Without looking at those links or asking for further evidence, what if, alot of people see the jist of what she states was true but allow that her youth and fear made her mis-judge on some things? Like I did without reading it. You can't state that is not factual nor can I, unless she was bought to Court as an example and without a reasonable doubt, it was concluded that, she was telling the truth but fear and age, made her remember something differently.

Then there is this. I saw a ghost. ****, no it wasn't it was a shadow that was bought on by a tree through my window. Am I a lier or someone showed me how it is possible that it was actually a shadow that amazingly created a shadow of a tall dark man inside my bedroom that obviously therefore looked like a ghost.

Do you see the point I am making?

 

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