52
   

Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

 
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 05:06 pm
@reasoning logic,
I did watch and thanks for sharing them!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 05:39 pm
@igm,
Thanks for watching. I think that we all have a certain amount of truth to offer each other and also a certain amount of false information to offer each other.

I may be wrong but if we were to apply logic to all of what we learn from others we may come as close to truth as we possibly can. Isn't this what religion strives for anyway?

We could be bold and say that we know the truth and do not need any help from others but to me this is a very primitive approach!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 06:41 pm
@reasoning logic,
...well yes, everybody seeks truth to an extent, but some do it more and better then others...some, factually seek it so strongly that they are willing to risk and let fall their own cherished beliefs and native cultural backgrounds in order to achieve the best possible description there is to it at a given X time...others in turn are far more concerned with their comfort zone beliefs and with the happiness that can be provided from such self referential places and thus not truly so much worried with truth itself and the shocking surprises it can bring along...for them truth is nothing else then a backup support of their own world and not so much an end in itself...it saddens me !
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 06:53 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Everybody seeks truth to an extent, but some do it more and better then others...some, factually seek it so strongly that they are willing to risk and let fall their own cherished beliefs and native cultural backgrounds in order to achieve the best possible description there is to it at a given X time...others in turn are far more concerned with their comfort zone beliefs and with the happiness that can be provided from such self referential places and thus not truly so much worried with truth itself and the shocking surprises it can bring along...for them truth is nothing else then a backup support of their own world and not so much an end in itself.


I think that this could be a famous quote in the future! Very well said.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 07:18 pm
@reasoning logic,
I appreciate your honest middle ground seeking input in many issues RL... Wink
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 02:27 am
@StinkyPete,
StinkyPete wrote:

I said worship MY dick.


That's why RL and I were discussing microscopes. Keep up.

Quote:
I didnt say worship YOUR dick


If you had, it would have been an epiphany.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 02:29 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...the question rather is if you want to use glasses ? Laughing (just kidding)


You're right, some things are best left unseen.
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 05:47 am
@igm,
Quote:
If your mind is dominated at death by hatred then since the mind like matter cannot be destroyed but can only change then after death we have a nightmare which can take any form just like having one when you're asleep now in bed. Mind creates the nightmare in life when we sleep and in death when we die if our mind is dominated by anger. When the results of anger have been experienced then we can be reborn in a place appropriate for a mind that has lower levels of anger.

Quote:
Enlightenment is not a place but a state of mind that doesn't grasp at descriptions of reality... for you to understand you'd have to experience it in meditation. For most this would take quite a long time but some insights might happen quite quickly. This explanation is a relative truth. The ultimate truth explanation can only be experienced via meditation (it’s a wordless understanding) that's why the Buddha was meditating when he demonstrated his Enlightenment.

OK, is it fair to say that the devout Buddhist are meditating to "blow out" flames in which in Buddhist terms are the things inside us that are what cause us to be angry, or have to experience hell and be reborn in lower levels of anger?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 06:31 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

OK, is it fair to say that the devout Buddhist are meditating to "blow out" flames in which in Buddhist terms are the things inside us that are what cause us to be angry, or have to experience hell and be reborn in lower levels of anger?

I wouldn't put it like that...

From a relative truth perspective: I’d say that it would be a Buddhist explanation to say: hatred arises due to ignoring the true nature of reality. So the root cause of suffering is conceptualizing the true nature of reality because it is beyond words and concepts. If we don’t see this then we can get angry at one thing and then another…eventually we can have hatred towards everything and everyone… but the root cause was mistaking reality for something it is not… the root cause of suffering is ignorance…literally ignoring the true nature of reality. It’s something we all choose to do so our mind becomes dominated by hatred, desire, jealousy, pride, fear, i.e. negative emotions, due to ignorance.

Our lives are improved (in a relative sense) by love, compassion, wisdom, kindness used to help others when they ask for help or are unable to ask but obviously need it e.g. a small child drowning. What I’ve said is how I see a Buddhist might explain your question in a ‘relative truth’ kind of way. The ultimate truth is found as I have said in meditation and is ineffable and cannot be elaborated. To summarize what the Buddha said i.e. the point of his teachings, he said, I teach only two things: suffering and how to end it. The Buddha was an ordinary person and our true nature is identical to his so is the whole of reality i.e. if he can become Enlightened to help all others (who want to) to do the same. So can we (if we want to).
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:01 am
@Arella Mae,
Of course it does. But that's the entire point. Christian scripture is primarily Paul's.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:04 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

JPB do you have a church of preference or what is it that you believe?


HA! What day is it? Or, what time of day? I would classify myself as an interested observer, skeptic, sometimes cynic, sometimes seeker, but mostly one who is amazed at the self-righteousness that people espouse regardless of their faith.

As to the church of preference, I spent many years at a UU church. I left there about 2 years ago and have not attended services since. I recently learned of a "post-denominational" Christian church (vs a non-denominational Christian church) and will be checking it out this weekend with a friend. Non-denominational Christian churches tend to be very conservative in their teachings. Post-denominational churches tend to be very liberal. We'll see...
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:20 am
@igm,
ok, and from your perspective is there a way to explain the hell experience in words or concepts? or can this not verbally be explained as well? if it can be and you feel "inclined" to explain it I am interested...and then I will make my points....
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:29 am
@JPB,
Quote:
As to the church of preference, I spent many years at a UU church. I left there about 2 years ago and have not attended services since. I recently learned of a "post-denominational" Christian church (vs a non-denominational Christian church) and will be checking it out this weekend with a friend. Non-denominational Christian churches tend to be very conservative in their teachings. Post-denominational churches tend to be very liberal. We'll see...

really? my experiences are completely the opposite...Churches with said denominations "to me" are the ones who embrace this idea that so long as you accept Jesus and go to a building once a week your good and well off...where as non-denominational have no "hidden agenda's" and "make it "their mission" to go into "detail" about scripture, and "go out of their way" to have conversations with you about life and scriptures...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 08:42 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

ok, and from your perspective is there a way to explain the hell experience in words or concepts? or can this not verbally be explained as well? if it can be and you feel "inclined" to explain it I am interested...and then I will make my points....

I think I've already stated this but to reiterate and perhaps add some additional details: the nightmare (hell) is made by mind after death for someone dominated by the negative emotion of hatred. This is the Buddhist notion of hell. It's explained as your own anger and hatred being reflected back at you, appearing in a way unique to your idea of what a nightmare experience would be. Reality reflects your state of mind and you experience it as a nightmare. The nightmare is the 'effect' of the 'cause' hatred after death. I hope this makes a Buddhist ‘relative truth’ case for the hell experience if you take into consideration all my previous posts on this subject in this topic.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 10:23 am
@igm,
Igm you posted....

Quote:
If your mind is dominated at death by hatred then since the mind like matter cannot be destroyed but can only change then after death we have a nightmare which can take any form just like having one when you're asleep now in bed. Mind creates the nightmare in life when we sleep and in death when we die if our mind is dominated by anger. When the results of anger have been experienced then we can be reborn in a place appropriate for a mind that has lower levels of anger.

Quote:
Enlightenment is not a place but a state of mind that doesn't grasp at descriptions of reality... for you to understand you'd have to experience it in meditation. For most this would take quite a long time but some insights might happen quite quickly. This explanation is a relative truth. The ultimate truth explanation can only be experienced via meditation (it’s a wordless understanding) that's why the Buddha was meditating when he demonstrated his Enlightenment.

then i responded

OK, is it fair to say that the devout Buddhist are meditating to "blow out" flames in which in Buddhist terms are the things inside us that are what cause us to be angry, or have to experience hell and be reborn in lower levels of anger?

then you responded...

Quote:
I wouldn't put it like that...

Quote:
From a relative truth perspective: I’d say that it would be a Buddhist explanation to say: hatred arises due to ignoring the true nature of reality. So the root cause of suffering is conceptualizing the true nature of reality because it is beyond words and concepts. If we don’t see this then we can get angry at one thing and then another…eventually we can have hatred towards everything and everyone… but the root cause was mistaking reality for something it is not… the root cause of suffering is ignorance…literally ignoring the true nature of reality. It’s something we all choose to do so our mind becomes dominated by hatred, desire, jealousy, pride, fear, i.e. negative emotions, due to ignorance.

Quote:
Our lives are improved (in a relative sense) by love, compassion, wisdom, kindness used to help others when they ask for help or are unable to ask but obviously need it e.g. a small child drowning. What I’ve said is how I see a Buddhist might explain your question in a ‘relative truth’ kind of way. The ultimate truth is found as I have said in meditation and is ineffable and cannot be elaborated. To summarize what the Buddha said i.e. the point of his teachings, he said, I teach only two things: suffering and how to end it. The Buddha was an ordinary person and our true nature is identical to his so is the whole of reality i.e. if he can become Enlightened to help all others (who want to) to do the same. So can we (if we want to).

then I responded...

ok, and from your perspective is there a way to explain the hell experience in words or concepts? or can this not verbally be explained as well? if it can be and you feel "inclined" to explain it I am interested...and then I will make my points....

then lastly you said....

Quote:
I think I've already stated this but to reiterate and perhaps add some additional details: the nightmare (hell) is made by mind after death for someone dominated by the negative emotion of hatred. This is the Buddhist notion of hell. It's explained as your own anger and hatred being reflected back at you, appearing in a way unique to your idea of what a nightmare experience would be. Reality reflects your state of mind and you experience it as a nightmare. The nightmare is the 'effect' of the 'cause' hatred after death. I hope this makes a Buddhist ‘relative truth’ case for the hell experience if you take into consideration all my previous posts on this subject in this topic.

I will post this then give my "perspective" in my next post so I don't use up all my room in this post....
Quote:
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 12:29 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
here is my "perspective" and let me first say that I am responded based on "your" interpretations of Buddhism, and my perspective is coming from what "you" have said about Buddhism....and I am taking in that your correct...for I hope you can understand that you may NOT be correct on every matter, just like I give a version of Christianity, that differs from a lot, and I claim to have deeper understandings, but at the same time I value other perspectives of Christianity, and even "lessons or teachings" from "other" "religions and or philosophies" I may Indeed be WRONG on matters....and I mean NO OFFENSE to "other Buddhists"

ok...my "perspective" is first off, I do NOT feel my mind is mostly dominated by anger, but at the same token I "have experienced hell" and the proof I have for "myself" is that I have many "positive even Highly Spiritual Christian esk dreams" in which the reward "good dreams" far outweigh the bad ones...and I "personally" will never give up on Jesus, because I see he will never give up on me...if I experience hell like dreams but my understanding of your philosophy would be it is because I AM mostly ANGRY...but it doesn't explain to me why Jesus, then "chooses" to "reward me" with positive dreams when I am AWAY from anger according to Buddhist teachings....in other words, if you can't explain being enlightened, then I "personally" do not understand why first I experience BOTH evil and Godly dreams...if your interpretations of Buddhism are "correct" then in theory I would experience the Hell I need to, in order to end my sufferings, which I accept, but if the enlightened aspect, or "good" aspect of Buddhism can't be summed up....to me I WOULD NOT have Holy dreams with Jesus in them,...leading me AWAY from Ultimate truth "enlightenment"

or for that matter dreams with Buddhists in them or even in Buddhist "kingdom" if you wish to call it that...I do not know in fact where or what this place was called in Buddhism, or why I "see" reborn spirits named Yin-Yin sparring with me and "other Buddhists" as well as him "Yin-Yin"( he looks like the statue of Buddha himself ) aiding me with his fighting techniques against "my religions evilness" such as "demons" and "Satan" himself which according to your Buddhist out look you made "no mention" of them...

Second....

My "perspective" tells me that I differ in the view of the root cause of suffering is Ignorance...at least my context of the word ignorance....I will give you an example: one said on here before so I will use there analogy, in Arabic societies it is disrespectful to "show the soles of your feet" so if I did this act, and KNEW in there views it is disrespectful, I would not be "Ignorant" to the fact I was insulting them, but I WOULD be showing acts of Hatred....and if I WAS in fact unaware to the fact of this belief "showing the sole of my foot" then if I did such things...I would by definition be "ignorant" to their beliefs and yet not "trying" to be hateful or angry in ANYWAY...to me being ignorant is "unaware" if your unaware, then how could anyone or anything "INCLUDING JESUS" any person of teachings or beliefs system, philosophy etc, hold ANYONE accountable for acts they don't know or understand?? it is like saying in one hand GO out and search as MUCH understandings as you can comprehend, and find wisdom in things, but from "my perspective" tells me we will NEVER be able to comprehend everything on earth...so therefor, it is impossible to say ANYONE who suffers, it is because of ignorance...to me it is the opposite, I suffer because I "know better" and "chose" to do the wrong act opposed to the "right acts" then my suffering is "only myself to blame, and WELL deserved, or I have NO EXCUSE" oppossed to ignorance, if I am Ignorant, how could I be blamed for an act(s) or held accountable? under ANY religion, philosophy, etc

Quote:
Our lives are improved (in a relative sense) by love, compassion, wisdom, kindness used to help others when they ask for help or are unable to ask but obviously need it e.g. a small child drowning. What I’ve said is how I see a Buddhist might explain your question in a ‘relative truth’ kind of way. The ultimate truth is found as I have said in meditation and is ineffable and cannot be elaborated. To summarize what the Buddha said i.e. the point of his teachings, he said, I teach only two things: suffering and how to end it. The Buddha was an ordinary person and our true nature is identical to his so is the whole of reality i.e. if he can become Enlightened to help all others (who want to) to do the same. So can we (if we want to).

I agree with a lot of your post in the top all the way to the point of ultimate truth...from "my perspective" ultimate truth" is the need for a Savior, Jesus and I too have found this from a way of what similarly is called meditation in Buddhism, Christianity calls it "Praying" and I mean DEEP intense praying....I disagree about it "NOT" being able to be elaborated...if that is the case how does one "know" they in fact are enlightened?, or how does one express to another to "try" to become enlightened? in other words...as one atheist stated, our religion and or philosophy is due to convience and background culture....if that's true, how does one "break" out of that to in fact "not be" ignorant in Buddhist understandings?, if I in fact, am NOT from a Buddhist Culture? nor has it ever been preached to me, so that I can "sympathize" and "take in" what is in fact being said by a devout Buddhist" when I never was exposed? to me "your perspective" defeats itself, I am not exposed to Buddhism, it's not Common in my land, No Athurotive figure who IS enlightened can or will explain it to me to "follow" therefor, by your "perspective" I will REMAIN Ignorant my whole life, and will have to "hope" I am reborn into a society that "has" Buddhism, so that I can "BEGIN" my enlightened Journey, which again, it is MORE plausible for me to believe Christianity is in fact correct, because it EASY to see people who are reflections of Christ, by "acts" and "Faith" and Easy to see it is Good to become like them...

I hope you understand m points and "views"

have a great day!




igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 04:05 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
It’s good that your mind is not mostly dominated by anger.
Remember I was talking not about dreams now but a nightmare after death created by mind. I mentioned this to contrast it from just dreams we have at night whilst we are asleep. These are not the same but can be ‘hellish’ to experience.

So during this life if you have a nightmare it does not mean you are ‘mostly angry’ as you say. It's only after death. You asked me to explain what Buddhist hell was and that can only be experienced after death (please see my other posts it’s clear I meant after death).

Ignorance is as I’ve said in my other posts about specifically ignoring the true nature of reality it is only this that I have spoken of. You might need to reread what I said. I haven’t talked about any other kind of ignorance.

You asked me to explain what Buddists' meant by the term 'hell'. I explained to the best of my ability I believe I’ve answered your questions in my previous posts. The authentic Buddhist teachings are now in the West so they can be followed by us if we want. Before there was heaven, hell or death available now there is reincarnation and Enlightenment available as well.

Remember I also said that this explaination is 'Relative Truth' not 'Ultimate Truth'. The first is an attempt to explain in words and concepts the second is beyond words and concepts and will only be experienced wordlessly as a direct experience during deepest meditation.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 07:29 am
@igm,
ok, I am sorry, please explain what specifically ignoring true nature of reality is? and if you think I don't understand (for taking in "new teachings" is NOT easy) please simplify it for me...

thank you!
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 07:33 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
nevermind, I can reread I see "your perspective" of "relative truth"
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 07:37 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
so whatever you reality is reflected back from your mind "decides" your rebirth? from one life to the next?
 

Related Topics

Atheism - Discussion by littlek
The tolerant atheist - Discussion by Tuna
Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
church of atheism - Discussion by daredevil
Can An Atheist Have A Soul? - Discussion by spiritual anrkst
THE MAGIC BUS COMES TO CANADA - Discussion by Setanta
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 09/30/2020 at 01:11:41