Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

Side note it was not atheists shouting there is no god when flying four planes into buildings or the ground and it was not an atheist co-pilot who fought the pilot for control and flown a jet liner into the ocean off New York either who voice was hear on the black box declaring god in great.

It was not atheists who feed poison to their children in a jungle and on and on we go.

Trying to fight such nonsense that have a history of doing so must harm seem a public duty in fact.

You wrote:

“Most of us here know the fact that you also do not "believe" there are no elves, leprechaun , flying spaghetti monsters and so forth.”

I called that damn near incoherent. To which you replied:


This is a copy and paste from you, I inserted "you" into that sentence. I also do not "believe" there are no Gods

I added the word you and the word god I reinserted but you had it there originally.

You now have linked to something that bears no resemblance to that comment.

Link to my comment.

We will write the comment down…and insert the word “you”…and see if the sentence above results.

IT WON’T.

You cannot link to anything I said that resembles that comment (that you are pretending you cut and pasted)…and you know it.

What are you trying to do here, RL?

And the way to challenge them is to defeat them at the voting booth by showing that an atheist society is better than what we have.

The past is neither here nor there. How can anybody here answer for the past? And the record might have been tampered with for propaganda purposes.

Which not small areas of the world have the death sentence for going against religious beliefs? That sounds like another of your made up things like the US based religious groups you couldn't name which you said were backing the death sentence for homosexuals in Africa.

And you have not yet explained what you mean by evil without reference to Christian ideas. Your definition agrees with that of any pious nun.

I'm beginning to think you enjoy typing "torture" and "death sentence". Why is Bradley Manning being subject to treatment that many are condemning? Solitary confinement is a form of torture. And intended to be. So is waterboarding.

You should be attacking North Korea. This is 2012.

What harm are religious believers doing now. They occupy the highest offices in the US and have done for a long time.

OK Frank let's be intellectually honest about this.


I was speaking from memory and you can see that my memory was a little off as it normally is so I made a small mistake, even so what I said was true, "it is a cut and paste and if you will take the time and go back and read my last reply and analyze it you will see for yourself what I did with the cut and paste that I took from your post.

Large areas had laws that can place you in a prison cell and smaller areas have the death sentence for going against the local god even today!!!!!!!!!

That is a fact that can be found by using google including such cultures that we think of as fairly advance such as India a not small country with a not small percent of the total world population.

http://boingboing.net/2012/04/13/indian-skeptic-charged-with.html

Sanal Edamaruku, an Indian skeptic, went to Mumbai and revealed that a "miraculous" weeping cross was really just a bit of statuary located near a leaky drain whose liquid reached it by way of capillary action. The local Catholic Church demanded that he retract his statements, and when he refused, they had him arrested for blasphemy.

On 10th March, Sanal Edamaruku, President of the Rationalist International, flew to Mumbai. The TV channel TV-9 had invited him to investigate a “miracle” that caused local excitement. He went with the TV team to Irla in Vile Parle to inspect the crucifix standing there in front of the Church of Our Lady of Velankanni. This crucifix had become the centre of attraction for an ever growing crowd of believers coming from far and wide. The news of the miracle spread like wild fire. For some days, there were little droplets of water trickling from Jesus’ feet. Hundreds of people came every day to pray and collect some of the “holy water” in bottles and vessels. Sanal Edamaruku identified the source of the water (a drainage near a washing room) and the mechanism how it reached Jesus feet (capillary action). The local church leaders, present during his investigation, appeared to be displeased.

Some hours later, in a live program on TV-9, Sanal explained his findings and accused the concerned Catholic Church officials of miracle mongering, as they were beating the big drum for the drippling Jesus statue with aggressive PR measures and by distributing photographs certifying the “miracle”. A heated debate began, in which the five church people, among them Fr. Augustine Palett, the priest of Our Lady of Velankanni church, and representatives of the Association of Concerned Catholics (AOCC) demanded that Sanal apologize. But Sanal refused and argued against them. [The whole TV program is recorded. You can watch an abridged version of it on YouTube.]

When they saw Sanal refused to bow to their demands, they threatened to file a blasphemy case against him. And they did. Yesterday (10th April,2012) Sanal received a phone call from a Police official of Juhu Police Station in Mumbai directing him to come to the said police station to face the charges and get arrested. He also said that FIRs have also been filed in Andheri and some other police stations u/s 295 of Indian Penal Code on the allegations of hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community. Mumbai police has announced that they were out to arrest him. It is apprehended that he can be arrested any moment

Now we go to India neighbor Pakistan with a populations in the hundreds of millions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Pakistan

Blasphemy law in Pakistan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search The Pakistan Penal Code prohibits blasphemy against any recognised religion, providing penalties ranging from a fine to death. However, in practice, it is only applied to Islam. An accusation of blasphemy commonly subjects the accused, police, lawyers, and judges to harassment, threats, and attacks. An accusation is sometimes the prelude to vigilantism and rioting.

Calls for change in the blasphemy laws have been strongly resisted by Islamic parties.

-----------edit

Between 1986 and 2007, Pakistani authorities charged 647 people with blasphemy offences.[5] Fifty percent of these were non-Muslims, who represent only 3% of the national population.[5] No judicial execution for blasphemy has ever occurred in Pakistan,[6][7] but 20 of those charged were murdered.

http://newscastmedia.com/blog/2010/11/22/chrisitian-woman-saved-by-president-from-execution-for-blasphemy/


Chrisitian Woman Saved By President From Execution For Blasphemy

Asia Bibi
Newscast Media — A Christian woman facing the death sentence for blasphemy against Islam has been freed today by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari. Asia Bibi had already spent the last year and a half in prison after Muslim colleagues on the fruit farm where she worked accused her of blasphemy following a dispute between them over their different faiths.

Bibi became the first Christian woman in Pakistan to be handed the death sentence during a court hearing on November 8, and the 45-year-old was freed not long after President Zardari pardoned her today in the face of pressure from the international community.

The Centre for Legal Aid, Assistance and Settlement (CLAAS), which provides free legal support to persecuted Christians in Pakistan, welcomed news of Bibi’s release.

Nasir Saeed, Coordinator of CLAAS in the UK, said: “This is the only acceptable outcome to what has been a travesty of justice from the outset. Asia Bibi should never have been charged with blasphemy, let alone found guilty and sentenced to death.

“We are relieved and overjoyed at Asia Bibi’s release but so long as the blasphemy laws remain in place there is no telling when another innocent Christian will face being executed because of something they said.”

It all started on Friday, June 19, during an intense discussion among the women about their faith, with the Muslim women telling Asia about Islam. Asia responded by telling them about her faith in Christ. Asia told the Muslim women Christ had died on the cross for our sins, then asked them what Mohammed had done for them, according to VOM sources. She told them Jesus is alive, but Mohammed is dead. “Our Christ is the true prophet of God,” she reportedly told them, “and yours is not true.”

Upon hearing this response the Muslim women became angry and began to beat Asia Bibi. Then some men came and took her and locked her in a room. They announced from mosque loudspeakers that she would be punished by having her face blackened and being paraded through the village on a donkey.

Local Christians informed the police, who took Asia into custody before the Muslims could carry out their plan. She is currently being held at the police station in Nankana city. Christians there urged the police not to file blasphemy charges, but police claimed that they must go forward due to pressure from local Muslim leaders.

Asia was arrested and prosecuted under Section 295 B and C of the Pakistan Penal Code, which carries a mandatory death penalty. http://newscastmedia.com/asiabibi.htm

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/saudi-journalist-deported-from-malaysia-faces-execution-for-blasphemy/story-fnb64oi6-1226269678321


A YOUNG journalist who fled Saudi Arabia after he made comments on Twitter about Muhammad has been deported from Malaysia, despite protests from human rights groups that he could be executed.
Hamza Kashgari, 23, was collected by Saudi agents and put on a flight to Jeddah without being allowed access to a lawyer. The newspaper columnist was arrested upon arrival at Kuala Lumpur airport last week on his way to New Zealand after a week on the run.

His tweets about the Prophet provoked a storm of protest, and Twitter was deluged with more than 30,000 responses in 24 hours, including several death threats.

With Saudi clerics and Islamists calling for Mr Kashgari to face the death penalty, Malaysia was under diplomatic pressure from Riyadh to return him. Saudi Arabia, which has no extradition treaty with Malaysia, used Interpol's red notice system to have Mr Kashgari arrested, prompting complaints from rights groups that the international police agency had abused its powers.

...Mr Kashgari's lawyer, Muhammad Afiq bin Mohamad Noor, said yesterday that Malaysian police had refused to take his calls and ignored letters demanding the right to see his client.

He got an injunction from the High Court in Kuala Lumpur to stop the deportation, but Mr Kashgari had already been expelled.

"I asked the Inspector General of Police on Friday and again on Saturday. They never answered my calls," said Mr Noor.

Mr Kashgari's mother and brother flew to Kuala Lumpur but were also denied access to him.

Ten days ago Mr Kashgari posted tweets about Muhammad's birthday. "On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you've always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you," he wrote.

In two subsequent tweets, he added: "I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more . . . I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do."

Sheikh Nasser al-Omar was one of several influential Saudi clerics who demanded that King Abdullah prosecute Mr Kahsgari for apostasy, an offence which carries the death penalty.

Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch said that Malaysia should not be "complicit in sealing Kashgari's fate by sending him back".

He said: "Saudi clerics have already made up their mind that Kashgari is an apostate who must face punishment."

The Malaysian Home Affairs Minister, Hishammuddin Hussein, said that charges against Mr Kashgari were "a matter for the Saudi Arabian authorities".

Yes Sendius I am making up these facts of men and women are facing death sentences for expressing their religions believes and in fact being sentence to death by courts where only strong pressure from the west had stop from happening for the most part and far more are being murder by mobs or sentence to prison sentences


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17417


> News > July 2007 > Pakistan: Christian man one among many facing execution under blasphemy laws

Jul 2007


Pakistan: Christian man one among many facing execution under blasphemy laws

Posted: 25 July 2007

Accused's lawyer has survived an attempt on his life; family forced to flee

Younis Masih, a Pakistani Christian, has been sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan. His family have been threatened and forced to flee their home, and are now living in hiding.

Mr Masih has been attacked in prison by other inmates, while his lawyer, Parvez Aslam Choudhry, has survived an apparent attempt on his life and is being harassed because of his involvement in the case.

Amnesty International believes Younis Masih has been prosecuted because he is a member of a minority faith, and is calling for him to be released immediately and for the abolition of all laws which violate the rights to freedom of opinion and expression.

Younis Masih is alleged to have made derogatory remarks about the Prophet Mohammed at a religious service held at a house near his own on 9 September 2005, in the Chunngi Amar Sadu area of Lahore. He denies this, and a local newspaper quoted his wife as saying that he was attacked after he went to the house at around midnight and asked the people inside not to sing so loudly, as he was in mourning for his nephew, who had recently died. The Muslim cleric who had led the service filed a complaint against Younis Masih, accusing him of blasphemy.

Younis Masih's trial was reportedly unfair, as it is claimed that the prosecution case was based on hearsay, and not direct evidence, and that changes had been made to the original prosecution witness statements. During the trial Younis Masih gave evidence via a video link due to concerns for his safety, making it the first blasphemy case to use video technology. He is appealing against his sentence.

Younis Masih's lawyer, Parvez Aslam Choudhry, has received threats, including death threats, during and since the trial. In May 2006, unknown assailants deliberately rammed their car into Parvez Aslam Choudhry's car, which then was pushed off the road and fell forty feet, killing one passenger, lawyer Rana Javed Rafiq. The judge in the case ordered the Punjab police to provide Mr Choudhry with protection, but he has stated that this order has not been implemented.

Amnesty International UK Campaigns Director Tim Hancock said:

'It is clear that Younis Masih has been targeted because of his faith, and now faces execution because the law in Pakistan permits the persecution of religious minorities.

'President Musharraf must put an immediate halt to this execution, and ensure that the blasphemy laws in Pakistan are re-examined so that they cannot be used to persecute those who are different from the majority.'

The blasphemy laws of Pakistan, while purporting to protect Islam and the religious sensitivities of the Muslim majority, are vaguely formulated and arbitrarily enforced by the police and judiciary in a way which amounts to harassment and persecution of religious minorities. Many of those accused or suspected of blasphemy have been assaulted or tortured. They include members of minortity Muslim denominations, Hindus and Christians.

People detained on blasphemy charges in prisons including Kot Lakhpat, where Younis Masih is held, have been killed by fellow detainees or prison wardens. Others suspected of blasphemy, but not under arrest, have been unlawfully killed without police taking any action to protect them.

"Defiling the name of the Prophet Mohammed" is a capital offence under Section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code, which states, "Whoever by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, and shall also be liable to a fine"..

International human rights law guarantees the rights to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, opinion and expression. Amnesty International considers people imprisoned under blasphemy laws for exercising their right to freedom of opinion and expression to be prisoners of conscience. The organisation is urging the government of Pakistan to abolish laws, including blasphemy laws, which violate these rights.

Amnesty International members are writing to the President of Pakistan asking him to commute Younis Masih's death sentence, to release him, and to ensure that he and his lawyer and their families are protected.

Good grief man--you can't base an intellectual position on a story as full of holes as that one is.

And I'm not defending Pakistan or Islam. And especially not the hotheads. This thread is about Christianity and not attacks of that nature on it. They see Christianity as undermining their whole way of life. Which it does.

You're ridiculous.

Let's not forget, this is someone who argued that Texas should be allowed to execute a man without examining forensic evidence that could exonerate him.

Ridiculous doesn't come close.

LOL and you not taken note my very first posting in response to your claims that men and women are not now being jail and in some cases facing death over expressing religion beliefs concern the local Catholic church in India using the anti-blasphemy laws of that country against an atheist for discrediting a claim miracle that was bringing in $$$$$$$$$.

There is no reason to think that if the Western societies would allow them the freedom to have such laws the bulk of the Christian faiths would not have atheists and such silent under the color of law.

Izzy do you think that there are any facts within the reply below?

You are missing a point...

They are standing up for their rights that what they believe to be true, can not be over-turned by man and made out to look like a lie. ( You assume it's for money). More importantly, what you are missing is this is not GOD, this is MAN who has made such a law... After all, if there is a God, Jesus tried to show people of miracles and as a result he was crucified.. This is not what is happening in all your stories, it is the other way around..

Either way you want to look at it it's man's decision not God's decision being carried out.

The men that flew those planes were delusional. A normal person would know that no God would speak to them in their heads and tell them to get on a plane and make it crash killing innocent people, for no reason...

You seem to have a problem distinguishing between facts and opinion.

You also seem to have a problem finding fault with BillRM. What I said about him and the Texas execution is a fact. I can't be bothered to go looking for it, but it's out there.

If you look at some of his other posts you'll see he has some rather repulsive views on rape, child pornography and drink driving. Then again you're not very good at checking out the provenance of anything.

Even in the US with our strong guarantees of religion freedom in the Constitution we had have had problems with Blasphemy laws in the past and even had such a law placed on the Law books in PA as late as 1977!!!!!

There is no reason to assume that if our constitution was not there as a barrier US Christian faiths would not had similar laws place on the law books as now exist in such countries as India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_the_United_States

Blasphemy laws
"An Act against Atheism and Blasphemy" as enacted in 1697 in "His Majesty's PROVINCE of the MASSACHUSETTS-BAY in NEW-ENGLAND" (1759 printing)Massachusetts, Michigan, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Wyoming, and Pennsylvania have laws that make reference to blasphemy.[1] Some US states still have blasphemy laws on the books from the founding days. For example, Chapter 272 of the Massachusetts General Laws — a provision based on a similar colonial era Massachusetts Bay statute enacted in 1697 — states:

Section 36. Whoever willfully blasphemes the holy name of God by denying, cursing or contumeliously reproaching God, His creation, government or final judging of the world, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching or exposing to contempt and ridicule, the holy word of God contained in the holy scriptures shall be punished by imprisonment in jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars, and may also be bound to good behavior.

The history of Maryland's blasphemy statutes suggests that even into the 1930s, the First Amendment was not recognized as preventing states from passing such laws. An 1879 codification of Maryland statutes prohibited blasphemy:

Art. 72, sec. 189. If any person, by writing or speaking, shall blaspheme or curse God, or shall write or utter any profane words of and concerning our Saviour, Jesus Christ, or of and concerning the Trinity, or any of the persons thereof, he shall, on conviction, be fined not more than one hundred dollars, or imprisoned not more than six months, or both fined and imprisoned as aforesaid, at the discretion of the court.

According to the marginalia, this statute was adopted in 1819, and a similar law dates back to 1723. In 1904, the statute was still on the books at Art. 27, sec. 20, unaltered in text. As late as 1939, this statute was still the law of Maryland. But in 1972, in Maryland v. Irving K. West, the Maryland Court of Appeals (the state's highest court) declared the blasphemy law unconstitutional.[2] This law was still on the books however at least as late as 2003.[3]

Pennsylvania enacted a law against blasphemy in 1977. In the fall of 2007, George Kalman sent the completed forms for incorporating a company to the Pennsylvania Department of State. Kalman wanted to incorporate a movie-production company which he called I Choose Hell Productions, LLC. A week later, Kalman received a notice from the Pennsylvania Department of State which informed him that his forms could not be accepted because a business name “may not contain words that constitute blasphemy, profane cursing or swearing or that profane the Lord’s name.” In February 2009, Kalman filed suit to have the provision against blasphemy struck down as unconstitutional.[1] On June 30, 2010, U.S. District Judge Michael M. Bayslon of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, in a 68-page Opinion, ruled in favor of Kalman, finding that the Pennsylvania's blasphemy statute violated both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[4]

Bill--will you explain why allowing motor vehicles to go faster than 5 mph is not evil?

Yes indeed believers make such laws not the fantasy creatures/gods who they believe in!!

Izzy you could be correct about Bill having said some things that would go against my moral understandings but you have cried wolf on so many other issues that I can not take you seriously. It sucks when people have exaggerated things in the past because it is hard to tell when the are being truthful at times.

Well if you agree with me, then isn't this a "f...ed" up World? Where what ever the initial intent was those thousands of years ago, man has decided to change things dramatically to suit themselves as if they are God.

So what does that really tell you.