Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

Everybody loves truth who is still at the question asking stage. Children more than most. It's no big deal rl.

Those you feel superior to by your expansive and self-stroking claim might have been burned by the truth.

Easter is the burning of the Winter Witch. It would be about September in the southern hemisphere.

I never was good at fiction, It puzzles me why people do not question what they believe.

Agnosticism (to me) = semantics in this sense: The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text: "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff".

Seriously, can anyone tell me why being an agnostic is anything other than meaningless? If not then agnostics... just... come on get a life! The one that I know is able to articulate and engage with others on other subjects but wastes his time on this... maybe he could move from the one-line dogma which is just semantics based and put several paragraphs together explaining why it has any meaning and is not just meaningless semantics.

These are my final words on the subject.

agnostics truly believe that they are the only ones being intellectually honest. They dont believe but , JUST IN CASE, they dont fully commit to reason.

Rigght.

I used to be an agnostic , its a "safety zone" where your nonexistant god, SHOULD he exist, wont be fully pissed at you. The fact that this creature of legend is a self absorbed , anti social fiend, is of no consequence to us (when I was an agnostic).

I remember reading the bible as a young person and being shock over and over at how evil such an old testament god happen to be.

Drowning almost every human being including infants and children along with the other animal lives on the planet and this is a being we should worship!!!!!!

Having one of his main human agents ordering the killing of infants in their mothers arms and only saving the young women who had yet to known a man.

Can not think of a devil that would be more evil then the Christian god in the old testament.

But you right Farmerman that the conditioning is strong concerning such a being and the countless generations of non-believers who was murder for their expressing their non-believes is likely written into our very DNA not to be open about the matter.

Do you think that there is any truth to this?

http://ottawa.humanists.net/lifewithoutgod/originsseries/easter.html

The Origins of Easter

Etymology

The English word "Easter" and the German word, "Ostern", come from the same root for "Eastre". The ancient word for spring was "eastre" and this was the name given to Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring. A festival was held in her honor every year at the vernal equinox.

Christianity merged this rite of spring with the Jewish Passover, which is why in other languages the word for Passover derives from it's Hebrew name "Pesach". In Latin and Greek the word is "Pascha" which in turn becomes in French "Paques", in Italian "Pasqua", in Spanish "Pascua", in Danish "Paaske", in Dutch "Paasch", and Welsh "Pasg". Passover literally means "he passed over" and refers the legend of the destroying angel who "Passed Over" the children of Israel and smote Egyptian firstborn children and firstborn animals instead.

In time Easter ceased to be the festival of nature being renewed by spring and became the time for people to renew their faith in Jesus Christ and God.

Pagan origins of Easter

Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area celebrated at or following the Spring Equinox. As early as 200 BCE, resurrection themes surfaced. One notable myth was the Cybele cult. The lover of Cybele was Attis (based on the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus myths). Attis was a god of the ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday when Attis castrated himself and bled to death. His worshippers sought identification with the god by also castrating themselves. Festivities culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection of Attis.

Resurrection themes in antiquity originally celebrated the end of winter and the coming of spring. The earth comes alive in rebirth or resurrection in the spring and summer for six months and then in the autumn and winter goes to sleep or is dormant for six months. This pattern or behaviour of nature is the basis for many cultures or religions. There was a real fear that the sun was dying and would not come back and so when the sun became stronger in the spring, there was great rejoicing. Many cultures have rituals for enticing the sun to come back. The rebirths or resurrection themes are the revival gods of vegetation that have been dead or sleeping throughout the winter.

Eastre, Goddess of Spring and the Dawn

Eastre was a goddess of the dawn and the spring, and her name derives from words for dawn, the shining light arising from the east. She was a fertility goddess and brought in the end of winter, with the days brighter and growing longer after the vernal equinox. Her presence was felt in the flowering or fruits of plants and in the birth of animals. The female hormone "estrogen" is derived from her name. Other names for the goddess included "Eostre", "Ostara" " Ishtar" and "Astarte".

Easter Eggs

Eggs have always symbolized life and regeneration and so have been used in fertility rites. After the long, hard winter was over, the earth burst forth and was reborn just as the egg miraculously burst forth with life. The egg, therefore, was believed to have special powers.

In antiquity in Europe, hen, duck or goose eggs were metamorphosed into Easter Eggs by painting and decorating them. Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia all dyed eggs for spring festivals. Medieval Europe created beautifully decorated eggs, which were given as gifts.

During the 18th and 19th centuries, another custom was the making of hollow cardboard eggs filled with Easter gifts.

The first chocolate Easter Eggs appeared in Germany and France in the early 1800's, and this new tradition soon spread to the rest of Europe and beyond.

The most famous decorated Easter eggs were those made by a goldsmith, Peter Carl Fabergé. In 1883 the Russian Czar, Alexander, commissioned Fabergé to make a special Easter gift for his wife, the Empress Marie. On Easter morning, Fabergé delivered an enameled egg with a golden yoke. Inside the yoke was a golden hen, and inside the hen, a miniature royal crown of diamonds and a ruby egg. This special Fabergé egg so delighted the Czarina that the Czar ordered the Fabergé firm to design further eggs to be delivered every Easter. In later years Nicholas II, Alexander's son, continued the custom. Fifty-seven eggs were made in all. Today these eggs are worth a fortune.

The Easter Bunny

The myth begins with the Goddess Eastre feeling guilty about arriving late one spring and finding a poor bird whose wings had been frozen by the snow. Eastre saved the life of bird and made him her pet or, as some versions have it, her lover. Filled with compassion for him since he could no longer fly, Eastre turned him into a snow hare, named him Lepus, and gave him the gift of being able to run with incredible speed so he could protect himself from hunters. In remembrance of his earlier form as a bird, she also gave him the ability to lay eggs in all the colors of the rainbow, but only on one day out of each year.

The Hare was sacred in many ancient traditions and was associated with moon goddesses and the various deities of the hunt. The Easter Bunny is a rabbit-spirit. Long ago, he was called the "Easter Hare". Hares and rabbits have frequent multiple births so they became a symbol of fertility.

The Christian Resurrection

The first Christians continued to observe Jewish festivals but practiced the festival with Christ as the "true Paschal Lamb".

There has been in modern times some doubt that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ actually took place because of the discrepancies in the gospel accounts.

There are five references in the New Testament which claim that Jesus was hanged on a tree instead of being crucified. The very reference of "hanging on a tree" implied that he was stoned first, e.g. "...Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree". [Acts 5:30]

The gospel writers were not witnesses to the crucifixion and they attributed their accounts to the disciples of the same name. These accounts often do not agree with each other. For example, on the third day when the followers of Christ visited the tomb where Jesus was buried, there are different descriptions:

Who went first to the tomb?

Mark: Mark said it was Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of James, and Salome.

Matthew: Matthew said it was Mary Magdalene and another Mary.

Luke: Luke said it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, mother of James and other women.

John: John said it was Mary Magdalene who went there alone.

St Paul never mentions details about the crucifixion or the resurrection. Paul was more concerned with talking about the spiritual resurrection and his writings preceded the gospel accounts.

The Christian Church skillfully contrived to plant the seeds of the new faith on the old stock of paganism. The Easter celebration of the idea of a risen Christ was grafted upon a similar celebration of the dead and risen fertility gods. The crucifixion is also another theme of sacrifice based on the dedication of the first born to the Lord, just like Abraham and Isaac. Although eventually child sacrifice was replaced by the sacrificial animal,

the idea of actually putting the victim to death lived on in its final conclusion with the Son of God being offered up to the Father, in an act of atonement for sin. This in fact was no different from the pagan worship of human sacrifice.

Easter was never a fixed date like Christmas. At the beginning, various Christian sects celebrated Easter at difference times. The final settlement over the celebration of Easter Sunday was not fully agreed on until the CE 325 at the Council of Nicea. It was decided that Easter Day should be the first Sunday after the first full moon, after the spring equinox.

How do you know what they believe?

Take a waiter in a posh restaurant for example. From what you see and hear you might think he or she believes the sun shines out of all the punter's arseholes.

Do you think a carnie barker calling you Sir signifies that he believes you're a dignified person?

You have a straw man on your hands big enough to bed down every horse in the USA.

"Don't ask me nuthin' about nuthin' Babe,
I might just tell you the truth."

Bob Dylan.

What are you, rl, scientifically truthfully? A bag of epidermal.....I'll leave the rest of the answer to forensics.

It's the appearance of truth you are going on about interminably. Not truth itself.

How do you automatically say "diaaaayper" instead of "nappy". What bends your vocal chords a different way than mine without you ever being conscious of them having been bent.

Your attitude to Christianity has been shaped in a similar fashion. It has to do with carrots and sticks. You being a child of the Enlightenment when the jackpot fell I imagine mostly carrot. Which, as a student of these things, you will know is a more powerful conditioning agent than stick.

You're on the same empty argument as all the rest of the anti-Christians because you scuttle away like frightened rabbits when asked to describe your unChristian world in such a way that it might tempt some of us to take your advice.

A bit like the street furniture vandal who doesn't have to worry about restoring the telephone kiosk he's kicking.

Messrs Orwell, Huxley and Burroughs have provided examples. As have others. Why don't you make their visions of a religion free future a bit prettier for us? A bit more than just Huxley's pneumatic women coming true on the TV and nobody ageing until the last week or so. I can do better than that. A lot better .





Have you read Canticle for Leibowitz?

No I haven't. Spendius I am sure there can be lots of fun in reading fiction but I do question whether if some people can go overboard with it. You know what I mean? Have you seen a little kid running around pretending to be a character of some sort and everything he says, he is jokingly referring to that character. Sometimes I wonder if people bring this psychology into adulthood with them.

By no means am I saying that it is a bad thing but what I think could happen is that other people may not be able to relate to what they are saying. We have a hard enough time trying to understand one another.

It all sounds reasonable enough, but I wouldn't take discrepancies in the gospels to mean a lot more than they do. Most of the gospels are second, third or even fourth hand accounts of what went on.

Liebowitz can have that effect on you. I pretended to have a glass eye after I read it.

Along with other pieces it helped me to stop pretending altogether whenever it is convenient to do so.

I bet you spend hours just practicing waving your walking stick in the air.

Damn you Mr. Sterne.

Setanta,

You quoted me saying: "Most atheists actually assert there are no gods."

Then you wrote:

Upon what basis do you make that claim, Frank? Have you talked to most atheists? Perhaps you're just guessing, and guessing in a manner to prop up your thesis.

That was careless wording on my part, Set...and I thank you for calling it to my attention.

I have not talked to most atheists...and there is absolutely no way I can logically make the assertion I did there. I truly hope it was carelessness (in the heat of battle) rather than an attempt to prop up a thesis, but obviously I cannot rule out subconsciously doing so.

It has been my experience that some atheists do indeed assert there are no gods. Edgar does this often...and I have other non-cyber atheistic friends who do so also. I do find that on-line atheists are more careful about that...and refrain from making that assertion.

I stand corrected.

That is true that we do not know for certain but there is no evidence showing either way so you might be correct, but then we might be correct about anything that cant be proven, it must be a 50/50 thing like the Monty hall problem.

The Monty Hall problem is no problem at all. Once door 3 is opened it's out of the game. Time starts again with 2 doors and it's 50/50.

You might want to think harder about that one spendius because the odds become 2/3 if you switch.

Well the first page of Canticle and the first page of Shandy are more or less equally blinding to a literary hopeful who takes off his shades and peers at them with his hand across his forehead.

"Girded loins" being as powerful a metaphor as having forgotten to wind the clock up.

I appreciate RL's reasoning, and I'm gratified to learn that he doesn't read books, or it would seem, anything longer than a thousand words, because he's really impressionable, and would rush to impersonate the various literary protaganists. I thought he was just making excuses for having a short attention span, but this explains everything.

I had him down as a Jackie Collins aficionado.

Only technical manuals for the most part and never for enjoyment.

No problem, Frank--it takes, even online, a certain amount of moral courage to say that one was wrong, i respect that. My anecdotal experience--and it is only anecdotal--is that most atheists rarely speak about it, probably because of the hateful fervor of the true believers. However, when it has come up, most i've known aren't saying they know there is no god, just that they don't believe it. I mentioned the squeaky wheel principle before, and i think that a variation of the fallacy of the enumeration of favorable circumstances applies. In that fallacy, one ignores evidence which does not support or which contradicts a thesis, only noting evidence which supports it. In this variation, with only the loud-mouth atheists raising a stink, it's likely that most people don't realize that they are not representative of most atheists. That's my experience of it, at least. I can no more assert that most atheists don't have that attitude than you can that they do.