Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@BillRM,

Quote:

I am saying that by what we know of the universe at this point in time the likelihood of beings you can suspense the laws of nature and are all powerful and all knowing is near to zero.

Really!
I would like to discuss this, because I do not think the argument you are making is sound...not at all. But you may be on to something I am not...and I'd like to deal with whatever you see that points in the direction you suggest.

What do you see about what "we know of the universe at this point in time" that causes you to suggest that the existence of gods is near to zero?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

But "near to zero" is not quite good enough. It leaves room for speculation and a evolutionary competition in value of speculations. So--then-- what is value?

Quote:

a non-believer in the tribal gods would had resulted in a short and non breeding life span for the most part.

It hasn't resulted in that in your case. Or in many others. Or do you mean generally? If you do are you in favour?

And "most" is like "near to zero". Both only fake saying something significant.

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@Frank Apisa,

Let me add that the great details and frame work that been place by humans around such beings had so many logical holes in them as to being beyond silly.

The Christian god being all powerful and all knowing allow a rebellion of half his agencies IE angels in heaven was the story that cause red warning lights to go off in my ten years old mind.

Questions such as why would beings/creatures who was in far closer contact with "god" then mankind rebel in the first place including god head angel?

Then such silliness is that you need a god to produce a human never make sense to me as then what would you need to produce a all powerful god by the same logic.

Then I got ahold of Paine Age of Reason...................

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@spendius,

Tell me why the tooth fairy is any less likely to exist then the three in one god?

Sorry I am not going to go around assuming that such very very very low orders probabilities exist.

When you get that near enough to zero that is good enough for me not to build my life around such silliness.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Let me add that the great details and frame work that been place by humans around such beings had so many logical holes in them as to being beyond silly.

The Christian god being all powerful and all knowing allow a rebellion of half his agencies IE angels in heaven was the story that cause red warning lights to go off in my ten years old mind.

Questions such as why would beings/creatures who was in far closer contact with "god" then mankind rebel in the first place including god head angel?

Then such silliness is that you need a god to produce a human never make sense to me as then what would you need to produce a all powerful god by the same logic.

Then I got ahold of Paine Age of Reason...................

I must not have made my question clear. What I wanted to know is:

What do you see about what "we know of the universe at this point in time" that causes you to suggest that the existence of gods is near to zero?

Respectfully as possible, Bill, none of what you just wrote has any impact on that question.

Would you mind dealing with the question?

Apparently you see reasons for suggesting that the existence of gods is near to zero. I want to know what those reasons are so I can evaluate them.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Apparently you see reasons for suggesting that the existence of gods is near to zero. I want to know what those reasons are so I can evaluate them.

What do you see about what "we know of the universe at this point in time" that causes you to suggest that the existence of gods is near to zero?

I hope you don't mind my attempt at a reply to your question.

My definition of 'gods' would be beings who could create or change something without the cause/s and conditions necessary for that creation or change i.e. that current scientific knowledge would require to bring about that creation or change.

No one in history has been able to prove this kind of action has taken place. Nor has anyone ever in the whole of history been able to prove that such an event has ever taken place.

If 'gods' are only 'gods' because of their extra-ordinary actions then no provable actions of this kind have taken place in the whole of history. This makes their existence (proved in this way)... zero. What other way can we prove the existence of gods, if not through their god-like (provable) actions?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

There can be nothing sillier Bill than to construct a whole range of psychological positions based upon the silliness being a priori.

Once you have said that God is silly you have said all there is to say. All your other statements follow as predictably and logically as a needle follows a groove on a gramaphone record until it reaches the end where it then goes backwards and forwards until the plug is pulled out.

If you deem it necessary for your equanimity to dismiss out of hand the evolutionary competition resulting from beliefs, which cannot arise from non belief, then it's okay by me. But you do look very silly continually drawing conclusions which are already given by your premiss.

You need to focus on value as I said. The value of your doctrine I mean. At all times, which obviously includes the primitive state existing before Gods were invented, or revealed, and not just your present state with all mod cons provided and the value being what you see compared to the value pertaining in the primitive state.

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I hope you don't mind my attempt at a reply to your question.

Not at all, igm. In fact, I am happy to hear and consider what you have to say.

Quote:

My definition of 'gods' would be beings who could create or change something without the cause/s and conditions necessary for that creation or change i.e. that current scientific knowledge would require to bring about that creation or change.

Well, I understand where you are coming from, but it seems to me that is unnecessarily limiting gods in order to come to the conclusion that gods do not exist.

I can think of no good reasons why there could not be gods who want to work within the framework of a set of physical laws they have devised for a game they are playing…a game called “existence.”

Quote:

No one in history has been able to prove this kind of action has taken place. Nor has anyone ever in the whole of history been able to prove that such an event has ever taken place.

Maybe EVERYTHING that has ever happened has been an action of this kind. We really do not know…so I am wondering why you are simply excluding the possibility of that being the case.

Take a specific of “evolution” versus “intelligent design” (often discussed here in A2K) for instance. Why would anyone exclude the possibility of gods designing an “existence” experiment with laws in place that determine how the experiment will go from “no life” to “intelligent life”…that follow the exact pattern scientists now working are discovering???

Quote:

If 'gods' are only 'gods' because of their extra-ordinary actions then no provable actions of this kind have taken place in the whole of history.

As I said, maybe EVERYTHING that has ever happened is that thing…and the atheists are simply excluding that possibility in order to further their guesses about the true REALITY of existence…

…just as theists often exclude the possibility of anything happening without the involvement of a GOD in order to further their guesses about the true REALITY of existence.

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This makes their existence (proved in this way)... zero.

That is as gratuitous and self-serving an analysis by an atheist as would be a guess of 100% by a theist.

Quote:

What other way can we prove the existence of gods, if not through their god-like (provable) actions?

Whether or not we can prove the existence of gods or not is not evidence that there ARE gods or ARE NO gods.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

There is zero showings that there is any need for god or gods for the universe to be as it is and no showing that the law of nature had ever been fool with in any manner by such beings or in any other way.

Sorry but both the lack of any need for such creatures or any "foot prints" of such creatures/being place them at near zero likelihood of existing.

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@spendius,

Sorry old friend but I came to the conclusion that god or gods are silly after looking at the facts not before and also needed to overcome the social conditions we are all subject to in Western culture at least to some degree.

Even now I am not willing to place the chance of some supernatural being existing at zero just approaching zero very nearly indeed.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

There is zero showings that there is any need for god or gods for the universe to be as it is and no showing that the law of nature had ever been fool with in any manner by such beings or in any other way.

Sorry but both the lack of any need for such creatures or any "foot prints" of such creatures/being place them at near zero likelihood of existing.

Bill, first of all, thanks for getting back to me on this.

I’ve asked the same questions of atheists many, many, many times over the years…and all I ever get are variations on the same two themes: Nobody can produce any gods and there is no need for gods.

Neither of those are evidence that there are no gods…and the assertion that those two things make the likelihood of existing near zero simply is illogical.

If I were to ask you: Are there any carbon based life forms on any planet circling the nearest three stars to Sol…would you suggest that the likelihood of such life is near zero?

There is no need for carbon based life forms on any planet…there is no foot print or other evidence of such life on any planet.

But surely you would not suggest that is evidence that “the likelihood is near zero”...and you should not be doing so for gods.

Theists often suggest there is evidence of gods everywhere. They are gratuitously “seeing” such evidence because they want to see it. “Seeing it” reinforces a blind guess they are making about the REALITY of existence…that there is a GOD.

Atheists such as you often suggest there is evidence that gods do not exist although there is no such evidence, because they want to reinforce a blind guess they are making that there are no gods involved in the REALITY of existence.

As for whether or not the laws of nature have ever been fooled with...it is presumptuous of you to suggest you speak with authority on that. The Earth has been here for 4 1/2 billion years...and we only know a bit about the last 5000 years.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

I think you should stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a sociopath,

I think that anyone who is behaving antisocial should stop behaving antisocial so that they will not be seen as a sociopath.

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

I think that anyone who is behaving antisocial should stop behaving antisocial

Like spamming up threads with mindless videos.

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@BillRM,

Firstly, that was a bit harsh my last post, not sure what came over me, my apologies.

All children at some point are made to believe in The Easter Bunny, Father Xmas, The Tooth Fairy and at some point, they grow up and come to realisation that none of them exist. It stands to reason at 10 years of age, that you would also question any existance of Jesus, or a God as well, given you never saw the Easter Bunny nor, the Tooth Fairy..

But like Politics, one will always compete with the other, with the whole intention of winning. One will always not believe in a leader, with the intention of destroying.. So, why is it not possible that a "head angel" will destroy the leader? We see it here on Earth all the time.

If supposidly, we die and go to Heaven, our souls leave our body and go up there into that Universe and at some point, we are re-incarnated and come back as someone else, on this Earth. Then, it's also logical that, that is what Jesus did, came into a "body" but from a spirit..

Why can some people predict the future, "see" into the future all be in a month away, or 40 years? They can, it's a fact..

Why can some people "feel" this pain, strong connection with someone from the past 100 years or more ago? Or you meet someone and think, "geez, I feel like I've met you before".. Or the telephone rings and you already told someone that, that person was about to ring, but you weren't told that. If these things exist, or out-of -body experiences exist, together with a feeling of peace, then I'd be saying the "soul" verses the body makes perfect sense to me.. Therefore, there is a soul, that part does exist so where would it go?

Has to go somewhere.

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@FOUND SOUL,

One of the important things that I know/believe about God is that He has a personality and emotions. This is one of the biggest differences that I noticed coming from a taoist/buddhist/agnostic outlook on the Universe and then becoming a Christian. The whole Yin and Yang thing is a cycle that just goes on and on...light-dark-light-dark-light....Creation-destruction-peace-conflict....life-death-life-death...
No matter how you look at it, Buddhist, Christian, Atheist, etc., there just doesn't seem to be a way to avoid the problem that darkness exists.
The issue of darkness needs to be addressed somehow. On an earthly level, indeed forgiveness is where the cycle stops and you don't need to be a Christian to forgive. However there are forces that are just out of our hands. There needs to be a grand forgiveness. This can only be accomplished if God is like us/we are like god in the way that forgiveness is a choice. This is how I see it anyway.

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Maybe someone has an interest about what is taking place in the brain of religious people, from the view point of a neuropsychiatrist.

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@reasoning logic,

I am only interested in it if it is your point of view. I will not watch it until I am told this.

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@Philippos,

Quote:

I am only interested in it if it is your point of view. I will not watch it until I am told this.

It appears to be correct and I share some of the view points but please keep in mind I am only a student and science is not perfect but it is often better than the alternative.

He answers many follow up questions that are 2 minute videos if anyone wants to follow up on it.

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@FOUND SOUL,

Quote:

Why can some people predict the future, "see" into the future all be in a month away, or 40 years? They can, it's a fact..

They can and it is a fact???!!!!!????

Nice as they would be priceless in predicting everything from the next lottery ticket winning number to the next terrorist attack and so on.

Sorry but if such time warping abilities did exist we would not be living in the same world we are now living in.

Predicting the future is limited to human abilities to see patterns on ongoing events not extra sensory perceptions.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I can think of no good reasons why there could not be gods who want to work within the framework of a set of physical laws they have devised for a game they are playing…a game called “existence.”

Maybe EVERYTHING that has ever happened has been an action of this kind. We really do not know…so I am wondering why you are simply excluding the possibility of that being the case.

Take a specific of “evolution” versus “intelligent design” (often discussed here in A2K) for instance. Why would anyone exclude the possibility of gods designing an “existence” experiment with laws in place that determine how the experiment will go from “no life” to “intelligent life”…that follow the exact pattern scientists now working are discovering???

I believe I understand what you're saying but if there are 'gods' and they hide their god-like qualities from us and have always done so, surely we have just imagined that there are 'gods' and agnostics aren't willing to give up the hope that what has only been imagined might actually be the case.

In Buddhist philosophy the question of how a creator god could create everything is looked at i.e. the problems with the notion of a prime mover and how a god could create something etc... Non-creator gods are seen as sentient beings who understand to some extent the true nature of reality but subtly misunderstand it also.

Buddhists also examine what the term 'existence' means and whether that term is tenable given the impermanence of each examined moment. They also look at the self or ego and whether there can be such a thing or whether it is a fiction. Then there is the question of freewill and how that could operate. All these questions tend to deconstruct the question about 'gods', existence and the very person who asks such questions.

1 Reply

Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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