Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Playing devil´s advocate just for the fun of it I would instance a better approach to his probable view of the problem:

...maybe he should have meant that without God there would not exist a NECESSITY of order in the world...that we would not feel the need to naturally organize life the way we do...that the rules of nature (or lack) would be such without God that the world would be naturally disorganized and "unorganizable"...
...how would you reply to that ?

I would quibble that we need a more precise definition of which concept of "god" we are talking about. But in general I would say that the morality of people and their behaviors don't ultimately come from god (or even from the concept of god), they come from our core feelings and those are a purely natural part of us. Empathy can be seen in children long before they are old enough to rationalize it. And empathy leads to compassion and branches into morality, all of which are necessary for our survival as a social animal.

Humanity is what it is because of our biology first and foremost. After that come the rationalizations we use to flourish within our societies.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

please explain how I should word it to understand Atheists??? for I truly want to know....I am truly trying to debate points not indeed prove they are wrong....(even if it seems that way)

Then stop preaching and start listening.

Have you ever considered the possibility that your world view might be wrong?

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

ok...to whoever voted my post down....explain with reasonable proof that there is substantial proof that Atheists are "free" from punishment only based on "their" views...and explain how if a TRUE God exists how "they" are not in much more hot water???or at least as much as thoughs who claim to believe but don't by actions???

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@rosborne979,

yes I have stated "many" times I may be wrong or Christianity the way it is practiced by many is wrong....I wish to see an Atheist say that "many" core beliefs of an Atheist is wrong.....but have yet to see it....which tells me that again Christianity grasps the concept of "understanding"

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

problem is...I don't know what non existant Atheism is....yes I agree in learning an individual and will do so as best as I can....I agree, but my DUTY as a believer is to instill faith from God...ones who follow will follow ones who do not wan't....correct and the "in fact" correct doctrine will be debated for "ever"... correct again and the ones who over all show they embrace humanity show they follow God regardless or doctrines....and again those who show there faith by actions show true wisdom in God...( I am trying my best personally) but none are perfect....so what then would be some core beliefs of an atheist rather than me labeling them as certain social structures...but am interested in their life views....

What scripture states it is your DUTY to instill faith from God? As far as I know, scripture says no such thing. Our duty is to preach the gosepl and love God and others. Faith comes from God. It doesn't come from any human being.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

to instill faith I meant lead them to the gospel....if there willing to listen....Arella I am NOT against you....I am WITH you....my battle ( if called that) is to show doubters the "proof" they look for....

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Oh okay. Thanx for clarifying!

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Retched? Why on earth (or heaven) would folks want to go through life thinking they're retched?

You know what? Only Christians are raised to believe they are born sinners. If you walk into a crowded room and say, "All sinners raise their hands", only Christians would respond. Jews aren't raised as sinners. Neither are Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus or any other religion you can name. That's pure Paul. And it's a mantle that Christians wear that I think is absolutely ridiculous. How much better could your life be if you didn't think of yourself as retched?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

yes I have stated "many" times I may be wrong

In order for you to get the answers you say you're looking for you have to stop trying to make sense of our answers within your framework of thought. You need to stop thinking that you may be wrong. You are wrong. You're completely wrong. There is no god, no heaven, no hell, no life after death. The stories of Jesus are a mythology that you have been indoctrinated into. The bible is just a story. You need to feel it in order to understand it.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

to instill faith I meant lead them to the gospel....if there willing to listen....Arella I am NOT against you....I am WITH you....my battle ( if called that) is to show doubters the "proof" they look for....

Someone told me something once. For those that require proof of God they will never have enough. It's not about proof. It's about faith. WE cannot make anyone believe what we believe. It's not something you can convince someone of. I do truly understand your intent though I do find your delivery could use some more compassion.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
yes I have stated "many" times I may be wrong

In order for you to get the answers you say you're looking for you have to stop trying to make sense of our answers within your framework of thought. You need to stop thinking that you may be wrong. You are wrong. You're completely wrong. There is no god, no heaven, no hell, no life after death. The stories of Jesus are a mythology that you have been indoctrinated into. The bible is just a story. You need to feel it in order to understand it.

No offense meant here rosborne, but you cannot truly KNOW there is no God anymore than I can truly KNOW there is.

4 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

to instill faith I meant lead them to the gospel....if there willing to listen....Arella I am NOT against you....I am WITH you....my battle ( if called that) is to show doubters the "proof" they look for....

There is no proof. You gotta have faith. You can not prove your way to god and can not prove god to anyone else. It doesn't work that way. I certainly doesn't work that way in my world and it doesn't even work that way in your own theology.

Besides, most atheists aren't looking for proof. They're perfectly happy the way they are. So you aren't "helping" them toward what they are seeking. You are pushing them toward something you want them to seek. And I'm not sure if that's un-christian behavior, or very christian behavior.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

No offense meant here rosborne, but you cannot truly KNOW there is no God anymore than I can truly KNOW there is.

Of course. That goes without saying.

But I have tasted the world in both flavors (and many others) and anyone can do the same if they choose to try. I was only trying to paint the canvas for him so that he could look into it for a bit. But even that is just the starting point.

2 Replies

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Playing devil´s advocate just for the fun of it I would instance a better approach to his probable view of the problem:

...maybe he should have meant that without God there would not exist a NECESSITY of order in the world...that we would not feel the need to naturally organize life the way we do...that the rules of nature (or lack) would be such without God that the world would be naturally disorganized and "unorganizable"...
...how would you reply to that ?

I would quibble that we need a more precise definition of which concept of "god" we are talking about. But in general I would say that the morality of people and their behaviors don't ultimately come from god (or even from the concept of god), they come from our core feelings and those are a purely natural part of us. Empathy can be seen in children long before they are old enough to rationalize it. And empathy leads to compassion and branches into morality, all of which are necessary for our survival as a social animal.

Humanity is what it is because of our biology first and foremost. After that come the rationalizations we use to flourish within our societies.

I provided you a metaphysical claim for the rules of Nature on which you just did beg the question by assuming them without justifying them...you could instead just ask why is God the way it is in my claim and we would be even...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

...your claim is not subject to physical proof or did you forgot ? your claim is metaphysical...do your homework !
( even I can do a better job on defending your cause, geeee ! )

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

...true and fair ! We cannot know only doubt...the question is do we have good reason to doubt ? and the answer is yes I think we do...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

if you do question the Bible or God, in your actions such as sin or doubt....then, now you "USE" reason and faith together to "get back " on the right path...

I understand how you’d use reason to live your life and to understand how to live your life interpreting the advice given in your Bible. But how do you use reason to believe that there is a God/Jesus, soul, heaven, hell, devil, angels, life after death etc…etc… I don’t see how reason can help with those beliefs? It has to be just faith doesn’t it? How can you use reason to restore faith?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

…it is very difficult for believers to use faith alone to get a reason based person to believe....

So why would you try to do this on a philosophy forum? Why not pick people who haven’t chosen ‘reasoning’ for a hobby, job, education etc…?

Also:
If you died in the middle of a spell of doubting of God/Jesus or some of the more important parts of the Bible … wouldn’t you go to hell for lack of faith in God/Jesus?

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Of course. That goes without saying.

But I have tasted the world in both flavors (and many others) and anyone can do the same if they choose to try. I was only trying to paint the canvas for him so that he could look into it for a bit. But even that is just the starting point.

I appreciate your "point" of view, And now from "my" perspective...I see that it is simply MORE plausable to see that every single intrict things exists for or from a higher purpose than to believe that every intrict thing that exists today sprang from inatomatcy and really has no "higher" purpose....for I could kill people or I could be what a Christian call "rightoues" without a higher being, there really to me is little if any proposed purpose in life...or life is ONLY what you wish to make of it....from that view ( from my perspective) where as if everything has meaning behind it For (God exists and does acts) then certain hings to me add up and or make sense....and I develope faith in him for such acts....simply put....but I value your perspective....

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...your claim is not subject to physical proof or did you forgot ? your claim is metaphysical...do your homework !
( even I can do a better job on defending your cause, geeee ! )

Yes, non-empirical ... non-scientific but I don't think metaphysics helps either.

You do seem to like being the 'devils advocate' though. Laughing

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I understand how you’d use reason to live your life and to understand how to live your life interpreting the advice given in your Bible. But how do you use reason to believe that there is a God/Jesus, soul, heaven, hell, devil, angels, life after death etc…etc… I don’t see how reason can help with those beliefs? It has to be just faith doesn’t it? How can you use reason to restore faith?

I personally can see things to give good perspectives as to not "doubting" but I would say that in the past I used reason because I learned the hard way many times I should have followed Jesus when he calls me and I do otherwise, such as sin...therefor, if you except God, then correct you do not doubt the soul, Heaven, Hell, Devil, Angels. and afterlife part....the way I see it from my perceptions....I can "see" the spiritual side and KNOW it exists....as far as using reason to restore faith....if I have faith, but stumble....i can use reasoning and again "get back" on the path of faith....but other than that faith...is utter ackowledement correct...ex: I hear from God not to do something, faith tells me to follow, I do not and sin, then reasoning, tells me to follow and accept God and repent for acts....strenghtening my "faith" in God....

Quote:

So why would you try to do this on a philosophy forum? Why not pick people who haven’t chosen ‘reasoning’ for a hobby, job, education etc…?

Honestly it is meant for "all" if you read my initial post....seems that MOST reasoning based people wish to discuss so therefor, these are the ones with which I discuss with...(much like arella, a fellow believer) is having discussions with me while we "BOTH" believe...it is a way to ENHANCE "all" life simply put....and I would hope if nothing else we "all" can learn from these topics....

Quote:

Also:
If you died in the middle of a spell of doubting of God/Jesus or some of the more important parts of the Bible … wouldn’t you go to hell for lack of faith in God/Jesus?

now your trying to be particular, ok, simply put many things are almost like in grey areas in terms of the Bible's explainations....but to answer your question, I personally don't believe even if people are purged in Hell, they ( if willing and except Jesus) will find the way to Heaven! I hope this explains your questions.....I personally see that for EVERY sin you fight a demon on your quest toward Heaven, with Jesus, leading you toward Heaven ( no one knows the way to the father except through me) and if your willing to fight till the end, NO MATTER WHAT YOU WILL IN FACT MAKE IT IN HEAVEN....if you "give up" then you NEVER had faith and destroy yourself from Heaven....and render yourself "unworthy" and yes in my opinions when see or fully grasped Jesus in this dimention during the decision of Heaven and Hell, people will be smart enough to want to go to Heaven...if you wish to rest forever, than maybe, because God can do anything this is a possability!....if you wish to live "another" life, maybe that is possible also....I personally have see "enough" from one life to see that if Jesus does in fact exist... I will follow my 'first" death...have a great day all!!1

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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

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