American girl in Italy, 60 years later

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
By that I mean for instance, younger men who can't seem to understand how just to talk to a member of the opposite sex.
By that you of course mean deferencial...Jesus, you women are so spoiled that when a man elects to not kiss your ass you think you have been insulted!

It's funny how scared you are of me.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

jw, do you still not understand how your comments were taken by others - and why that happened?

The last part is funny, Beth. It happened largely because Setanta stuck his patronizing/morally haughty schnozz into the whole affair. Read the firsst three pages. Yes, Chai was a walking, talking dictionary definition of hysterical .

Your analogy is bogus. JW didn't write a contract, he gave his opinion, [just as you are giving yours] which as it turns out was pretty accurate on the hysterical part even though he DID NOT say that Chai's initial reaction to the photo was 'hysterical'.

Don't leap to the conclusion that he was patronizing just because Setanta said it, also in complete defiance of the facts. [Yes, he's allowed to speculate, just as JW is.] As we are all aware, Setanta can be wrong.

JW specifically stated "may".

It occurred to me that Chai and Arella's reactions may be connected to unfortunate personal experiences in their own past. I do not want to devalue their honest personal feelings.

'may', as I'm sure you are aware, expresses opinion in a less than certain manner.

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@Mame,

That's about my take. She looks like a picture of studied aloofness.

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@Mame,

Quote:

I don't find this photo creepy. I also don't think she's scared shitless or experiencing joy. I have been ogled and hooted at in my youth and I always found it extremely distasteful. To me, she's walking through that crowd of boors as quickly and distantly as she can to get away from the ogling, wolf whistles and ribald comments.

If there is a statement at all, it's damning men. ...

After reading this I've come to the conclusion that it was completely unreasonable for JW to consider that a person's life experiences might lead them to hold and express certain opinions.

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@JTT,

I've been reading along from the beginning JTT. Thanks for your interpretation. It clearly is not the same as mine.

What Setanta posts or doesn't post is irrelevant to my reading of jw's posts. I follow Set's lead about as often as I follow yours. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.

When jw posted at the beginning of the thread - about the artist's intent having more meaning than the viewers - I had to walk away from the computer. His later posts, including the one you have posted, seemed to carry on in the same vein. I found them unsettling.

As I said, without meeting someone in person, it's hard to assess what they're really thinking.

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

The shitty and patronizing remark came first. My harsh language was in response.

Yes, the shitty and patronizing remark came first:

wandeljw wrote:

It occurred to me that Chai and Arella's reactions may be connected to unfortunate personal experiences in their own past. I do not want to devalue their honest personal feelings.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

What Setanta posts or doesn't post is irrelevant to my reading of jw's posts. I follow Set's lead about as often as I follow yours. Thinking otherwise is a mistake.

I believe you to be one of the most honest people here at A2K, Beth.

But considering JW's innocuous approach [as stated by him that it was that] and Set's not so innocuous approach to what by that time was a thoroughly confused mishmash about, what was after all, ALL opinions, maybe your comments were directed at the wrong compass heading.

Is it really so astonishing to think that the events of one's life might color his or her opinions?

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

By that you of course mean deferencial...Jesus, you women are so spoiled that when a man elects to not kiss your ass you think you have been insulted!

Please continue telling was what Chai really meant to say and what she will no doubt say in the future.

Ladies and gentlemen.... The Great Mentalist, Hawkeye! Reader of minds and all-around great thinker.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

The Great Mentalist, Hawkeye! Reader of minds and all-around great thinker.

You are likewise critical of Chai yes?? Oh sorry, I forgot for a second that you are prejudiced against men......

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@JTT,

The problem with your position in this post is that I already thought jw had posted something odd at least a page in advance of Set's first post on the thread.

I didn't see Set's post til about 24 hours after I'd already had to step away from the computer to prevent making one of those posts I'd be sure to regret.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

Yes, the shitty and patronizing remark came first:

Everybody entertains such thoughts because it is so clearly a part of reality. I get it from people here at A2K all the time. People use it as a form of argument rather than face the actual issue. I don't recall you leaping to my defense, Drew Dad

Upon reading Chai's first post, that was one of the first things that occurred to me - okay, this is the lady who did the swimming pool thread, and yes, this is the lady who, by her own admission was an alcoholic.

Given that background, is it really such a stretch in your mind that Chai hasn't run into some pretty awful members of the male persuasion? Is it a stretch to think that she hasn't been the recipient of a good measure of that type of leering/sexist/degrading talk from those same men.

I don't say this to be mean to Chai - I think it marvelous what she has done. If I was an alcoholic, I'm not sure that I would be able to do the same. Though we disagree, even vehemently sometimes, I love her humor, her wit. In fact, I'll go so far as to suggest, strongly, that a lot of that has come from her history - no wall flower is she.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The Great Mentalist, Hawkeye! Reader of minds and all-around great thinker.
You are likewise critical of Chai yes?? Oh sorry, I forgot for a second that you are prejudiced against men......

And I never forget that you are incapable of rational thought, but rather projection, invalidation, and rather pathetic attempts to belittle your opponents.

"Hysterical" is an apt description of you on many levels.

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@ehBeth,

Fair enough, Beth.

But my point still is, JW's initial remarks weren't that bad - my opinion. I think that they were blown up into something they weren't or at least something that wasn't intended.

See my last post before this one, in response to DD, for my opinions of that.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Everybody entertains such thoughts

Really? Do you have data to back that up?

JTT wrote:

I don't recall you leaping to my defense, Drew Dad

That's because I have you on ignore. I only peeked at this post because EhBeth was talking to you.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

And I never forget that you are incapable of rational thought, but rather projection, invalidation, and rather pathetic attempts to belittle your opponents.

"Hysterical" is an apt description of you on many levels.

Are you suggesting that this comes from, is because of Hawkeye's past, DrewDad?

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

That's because I have you on ignore. I only peeked at this post because EhBeth was talking to you.

Oh, so you're a member of the A2K chickenshit club.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Are you suggesting that this comes from, is because of Hawkeye's past, DrewDad?

No, I'm suggesting that he's not going to be invited into Mensa any time soon.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Oh, so you're a member of the A2K chickenshit club.

Yeah, that kind of elevated dialogue is what got you on ignore in the first place. TTFN

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As with everything else, it's all in the tone, the manner it was delivered, and the intention. We don't 'get' all that, often enough, in real life, with hearing the voices and tones, and we certainly misinterpret words alone more often.

I did not get wandel's statements as being shitty and patronizing or condescending or whatever. He does not post that way, I don't believe he thinks that way... and he is just not that way. I think he was trying to explain Chai and Arella's reaction, or in his opinion, over-reaction, to this photo. I agree with him about the latter.

I don't think the woman looked scared to death. I also don't think she looked joyful. To me she looked like she was wanted to get through a smelly situation quickly without having any of it touch her.

The fact that he tried to explain their reaction how he did does not make him patronizing, shitty or condescending. He was giving them 'room' to have their own opinions.

And I think Set was 100% wrong in ascribing those adjectives and intentions to wandel, based on wandel's posting history in particular, and his style, in general.

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@DrewDad,

So are the comments that folks like us make, DD, that go way beyond patronizing, safe from criticism, but it's fine to use the majority of an 11 page thread to attack someone for what appears to be an innocuous [but accurate] comment.

Your focus, and your comments, on this have been because it was said to females.

I suspect that your sex change operation has in some way colored your judgement. Smile

I'm prepared to let Mame have the last word:

"I did not get wandel's statements as being shitty and patronizing or condescending or whatever. He does not post that way, ... . "

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American girl in Italy, 60 years later

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