Are men (and women) who habitually cheat just creeps?

Hmmm - I would never assume exclusivity - if at all - without lengthy discussions about it.

Actually - I am somewhat sceptical about the possibility - I am sure there ARE people who do it - but, having a generally very dim view of marriage, and having been hit on by so many men who were clearly in what their partners believed were exclusive relationships - (I am not saying lots of women do not do the same - but my experience is with the fellas) - some of them with my friends (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - THAT really riles me - to me honour says you do NOT touch your friends' fellas - even a long time later and I am insulted by people assuming I have no honour - yes, I know honour systems can differ, but I make my values on this stuff pretty clear) - often, also, my partner's friends have tried pretty hard - so I am, as said, not one to have a strong belief in deathless exclusivity. Lots of my friends think I am overly cynical about this, by the way....which may be true.

Given I feel this way, I have not generally been overly fussed about total exclusivity - though HIV and so on complicate matters here and make the stakes a lot higher. I WOULD be very angry if an agreement about exclusivity, which was allowing condom-less sex, for instance, was broken without honesty, for obvious reasons. I have known several couples where it WAS broken, and I have contempt for the strayer in this situation.

If I have been in a very serious relationship, I have more wanted to know if the primacy of the relationship I am in is in doubt, than that there is total exclusivity. In such relationships I have been annoyed at the assumptions made that I am a "victim" if acquaintances have seen the fella with someone else! I suppose his friends might have made the same assumptions when they have seen me in the same situation....dunno.

I agree, the negotiations and dreaded hidden assumptions can make life very difficult, both ways!

I recall a night of passion spent with a fella with whom I had been in the grip of mutual starry-eyedness for six months, before doing the deed. My assumption about him was that there would be no way he would be looking for anything but a casual affair - and I considered us very ill-suited, despite our over-whelming attraction to each other. My distress at his making clear the next morning that he was deeply in love and considered us to have embarked upon a relationship was intense, and disappointing him was horrible.

Generally, I am far more likely to leap into an affair situation, than into a relationship. If I think things might get serious, I wait far longer, and am very likely to talk and negotiate prior to any sexual involvement.

If I leap into bed in the throes of passion, I assume it is casual and unmonogamous and un-girl-friend/boy-friend unless something different develops and is discussed. In such situations, I am probably more likely to be disappointed in my expectations on the friendship side, if the person is also a friend, than I am on any expectations about the "rules" around the sexual side - (I take friendship very seriously!).

Oddly, given these beliefs, I am naturally pretty monogamous myself if I am emotionally involved with someone! I suppose life is busy and complex, and I only have so much energy.

Craven, I think you reach that stage, the b/g friend stage when you can talk about it.

I have three true friends. Two are named Jen and one of them married Bob, subsequently divorced.
I say this because, of the three, I would be devasted if I lost one.
Two years ago, Bob left jen for another woman, I stopped speaking to him. We recently began talking again, after he left the last woman for a new woman and so. I told him, if he wished to be my friend, he was NOT to fall in love for 1 year, no live ins, nothing long term, but 'dating' would be fine.
Bob is serial husband/cheater and was my musical partner. Since the age of sixteen, he has been in a series of marriages or long term relationships and never been single, not once.
We would do shows with his wife in the audience, featuring comedy bits about me being wife no.5(never gonna happen), yada yada yada,,, and women would throw themselves at him. They would buy him drinks, give him their numbers and openly flirt all night long. They new exactly who he was and what they were in for............I would ask these women, why??? I never got a good answer.

Just watching for now.

The thing I see about what Craven is saying is that there is a relationship twilight zone/ limbo where it can be really really awkward to have a lengthly discussion about exclusivity. I have always skewed to the extreme talky side and have tended to date people who skew to the extreme talky side, so I have, but I also remember enough and know enough people still out there (so glad I'm not knock on wood toss salt over shoulder etc.) that it's not always that straightforward.

I'm thinking that there are cultural aspects to this, the social mileu thing I mentioned, where the expectations are different. I.e. a certain expectation is reasonable in one group, unreasonable in another.

Expectations/ assumptions are always to be avoided where possible, of course, but...

A man is only as faithful as his options.

deleted

never mind.

Beth
Yes. I deleted my post because my whole heart wasn't in it. I'm really not one to judge and there are so many different situations that I can't comfortable express an opinion.

As for judging people - I have a couple of very close male frinds who have a lot of out of relationship affairs. There appears to be an "arrangement" of sorts with their current partners. Their behaviour is so well known that simply being seen with them raises eyebrows, and I always feel as though I should explain that we are friends - nothing else!

I find their bahaviour unattractively compulsive, and I dislike it very much when my home or activities become involved in their intrigues (I don't mean I let them conduct their affairs there, but more that we are sometimes involved in committees and social groupings where contact takes place) ....however, I do not presume to judge them (though I would always ensure to keep my relationship with them platonic) nor to judge their partners.

Of course, if I did not like them, and respect them greatly in other areas of their lives, I would be far more likely to make negative judgements!!!

I am also far less tolerant when someone's behaviour hurts someone and I am well aware of it....

Such is the relativity of human judgement making, I suppose...

mark

eoe's post "Well, another guy who cheated on his wife habitually said that he always needed someone new to tell him how terrific he was, how good he looked, how talented he was, he thrived from the intensity of a new relationship.
I found that interesting, at least. But still weak." Sounds like Sam on Cheers, except he wasn't married.

Quick note...haven't had the chance to read much here at all...

My negative valuation of a person in ANY situation is engaged most acutely where I witness a facile insensitivity - a ready willingness to cause hurt. I don't care if someone has twenty on-going liasons, or if someone is less or more monogamous.

I understood what this guy was saying. Hearing "you're fabulous" from his wife just didn't carry the same heat he craved from someone new saying "you're fabulous." The wife has see him at his most unfabulous while the new chick still sees him as a god.

I'm going to pull my post from the other thread. My first friend belongs on this thread also and I'm curious about what, if anything, could have been done.

...One of these guys I'd known for over twenty years and he was never, ever, loyal to a woman. Never. Not in high school, not in art school, not ever. Talk about promiscuous.? I'd say he was. Here's a situation...
The women in our little crew, which included this man, was so torn when he announced that he was actually getting married. (that's when he told me about his lineage cause I asked him one day why in the hell was he getting married?) His womanizing was notorious and we, the women of our group, had three-way phone conversations going on, debating whether we should tell his fiancee about him or not. Watching this poor, seemingly unsuspecting sister walk down the aisle with this cad, who we loved, didn't feel right and we talked about it for awhile and decided not to say anything to her, fearing the big mess it would more than likely cause. I won't go into the full sordidness of that marriage but in the end, he humiliated this woman beyond belief, to the point of letting other women wear her clothes! It was like watching a trainwreck. For five years. Over and over again.
There was no way to warn her, was there? Or was there? Should we have? Sent an anonymous letter? Anything?

I think she knew too long ago, but couldn't get herself to change the situation - her own.

She knew about him carrying on after they were married, chasing him all over the place, but in all honesty, I don't think she knew before. At least, not completely. He said all of the right things to convince her that she was the one.