Would this be considered Cruel and Unusual Punishment?

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We have an adult child (21 years of age and a Freshman at his college in the degree of Criminal Justice) that live in our household. We have had a few years (since he was around 18 years of age) of what we feel as abusiveness from him (we are older obviously). I have been married to his stepfather for 10 years and divorced from his biological father for 17 years who lives out of state and has never been supportive. Anyway on with it. He seems to think that he can say or do and treat people anyway he wants to no matter what and if it is abusive then he is entitled When we call him out on this he says that he has that right under the constitution and that there isn't anything we can do about it. Currently we are attempting to get him out of the house (we have been supporting him as he hasn't held a job since high school which only lasted about 2 months). Today I asked him for our house key (he knows that I am not happy with him) and he claims that he is entitled to our house key and that we are inflicting "cruel and unusual punishment" on him by dictating how he acts or what comes out of his mouth and that he could get us in trouble for that, but of course he won't. He also states that he has every right under the Constitution to live at our house due to him not having means of support and until that time we are responsible for him to do what he needs and supply whatever he wants. I am fed up! There is obviously more to this and this is just a smidgen of the manipulation tactics that this young man has inflicted on his family, but just thought that I would throw this out here. Thanks.

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Type: Question • Score: 10 • Views: 3,543 • Replies: 26

Give him formal written notice. Maybe a notarized registered letter. Then take eviction proceedings in court.

1 Reply

@AParent,

He is a legal adult (at least according to his age depicted here).

Your son shows signs of being a sociopath, if what you have written here is somewhat accurate and without bias.

Quote:

so·ci·o·path
[soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-]
–noun Psychiatry .
a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Taking your post at face value, your son doesn't have a legal right to a key and residency to your home. You have the legal right to have him move out of your house. Wouldn't know what this would entail but he may need a therapist to show himself the error of his sociopathic thinking and interaction with his family.

On the other hand, whether it is ethical to kick him out of your house? That's beyond my scope of understanding the situation. No matter what, your son needs a psychological intervention of sorts.

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@edgarblythe,

Thanks for your input edgarblythe. I would guess that we would probably need to get with an attorney (we know a number of them on a personal and professional level) about what the laws are in our State on that process. He doesn't pay rent to us, in fact we have been paying all of his bills since he graduated from high school. We provide his internet, phone (the phone is ours too), a roof over his head (a nice one too), food and clothing. We also provide transportation for him as well even though he has means in another fashion to take care of himself.

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I don't make it my business to know why you allowed this situation to develop, but if you ever want him to grow up and be a man, he has got to start now. One other thing I would consider is a restraining order, since he seems prone to violence. I am sorry to seem cold. I raised four children. It is not easy to always make good decisions. Especially tough good decisions.

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Im not sure I understand why there is a legal issue here....meaning why you would have to hire a lawyer.

If you want him out, call the police. Technically, he is not on you mortgage papers, ( or lease) he has NO legal right to be there. And no, being his parents does not give him any legal room over anything you own, not even before the age of 18. I think he is calling your bluff on something and knows he can .

And if he DID have a lease or agreement with you about staying there , and it is written down, he is in clear violation and ..again.. all you have to do is call police.

He sounds like he really lacks a lot of personal responsibility in his life and is quite arrogant. He needs a kick in his behind and police forcefully removing him may just be the key, or at least a start.

You have no obligation, legal or moral to support him. At this point in his life, HE is responsible for himself, even if as suggested above, he has a mental disorder or something along those lines.. You are not responsible.

Though.. I dont know if I would quite jump on the mental disorder yet, though I can absolutely see why that was suggested. He just sounds like he is stubborn and refuses to take responsibility. Very self centered, wants things to be easy for him so he can party, or see his friends or something. But, i am just guessing..

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@edgarblythe,

Yep, it ain't easy, but it's necessary. Would you tolerate this from someone else? Then why tolerate it from him? What is he contributing to the household, other than grief and trouble? What does your husband think of all this?

If I were you, I'd kick him out, not pay any more of his bills, and he'd have to get a student loan to continue his education and pay his rent. KICK HIM OUT!!! You've been way too soft on him.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

I don't make it my business to know why you allowed this situation to develop, but if you ever want him to grow up and be a man, he has got to start now. One other thing I would consider is a restraining order, since he seems prone to violence. I am sorry to seem cold. I raised four children. It is not easy to always make good decisions. Especially tough good decisions.

My mother had to do this with my brother. Had to call police on him several times and they took him to jail.

it turned out later though that we learned he was schizophrenic. but his behaviors were VERY radical. At one point, my mom had to haul him inside the house by literally knocking him over because he was naked in the front yard screaming at invisible helicopters.

Different behavior, but watching that...and listening to my mom was horrible. I cant imagine making those decisions for your child would ever be easy, but they are absolutely necessary sometimes.

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Thank you everyone for your input on this. It is comforting to know that I am not the crazy one as he suggests (he stays under the radar most times). He is absolutely calling our bluff and as a matter of fact I handled myself today, this morning, in a different manner than I normally would and I believe it scared him in a sense because I wasn't acting in my normal fashion of dignifying myself to him and in fact (there were other things besides the keys being discussed) I told him to go ahead and try me. He is for sure the master manipulator poor poor pitiful I am so abused attitude. How this all started was because of a Facebook posting in regards to his brother (he also dragged me into it on the posting). The majority of the people that participated in the posting don't know me, my husband or his brother but others like my ex's family got involved. While he is living in our house, especially, we have requested that he not drag "family" issues out on open forum. He doesn't realize or maybe he does, that airing stuff would make my ex and his family happy (they are drama filled and abusive themselves). He doesn't feel that he is being disrespectful to my wishes etc and it is a Freedom of Speech thing. I was asked how my husband feels about all of this. My husband is a very sweet man however he is very angry now! It isn't making our personal relationship suffer at all as a matter of fact we are as solid as ever. A year a go I had my son packed at out the door but my husband stopped that. My husband and I work 16 hour days, 7 days a week in his business (no other employees) and work very hard to provide for our family and he pulls drama and chaos? NO!

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I know how that is. I have an ex and we went through her interference for a lot of years.

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@AParent,

Okay, so it's a freedom of speech thing. It has no connection to his alleged right to occupy your home.

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@AParent,

Hello AParent - and welcome to A2K

I would rarely respond to posts about children as I am in no position to give a non-bias approach based on my own personal experiences.

However, I feel I would like to say a couple of things.

Your son, only by what you have stated, sounds rather like a petulant child who has Mom and Step-Dad living by his rules... and this, as you're finding cannot go on. Instead of stamping his feet - he appears to be using his education to get you to submit to his superior intellect. Of course, it could be a BLUFF - just like younger teenagers do... but not on such serious issues.

Firstly, I won't/can't/choose not to agree re the mental health disorders as I think this is a very tricky subject and may not be the best way forward into resolving this situation. It just puts a lot of ideas into your head which may not be true.

However, he appears to be acting like a child - so, I would treat him like a child. If he is disrespectful etc - start making the rules and enforce them. I don't see why you are paying for his clothing and transporting him around. Just say NO. If he is disrespecful - well, tell him to get to wherever he's going under his own steam - you do not have to be his taxi service, you do not have to provide his clothing - he's 21!!!!!!! If of course, he was living at home, pulling his weight and being a decent and responsible member of the family, well, obviously circumstances would be different.

Also, again, from what you state, it sounds to me that he is lauding his "criminal degree" over you. I think he is possibly even playing you for fools (seriously, I do not mean that in a disrespectful way) - of course, he insists he knows all the law and his rights and constitution (fer goodness sake)... and he does not expect you "not to believe" him. He does sound very clever.

We do have some experts here in law and I am hoping they will see your thread and give you correct legal information if possible. I would advise you to seek your own counsel asap for clarification of the issues and please don't start saying things about mental health issues etc as this can lead to opening a rather large can of worms. If you have personal friends who are lawyers, who also know your child, talk to them... and if necessary retain some professional advice.

He sound to me as he thinks he rules the roost. He doesn't. You, as his parents do. Live by your rules... or he moves out and get a place to live by his rules. If he has no money - he best go get a job to earn some dosh before going back to college.

Be strong, firm and assertive. Please don't allow him to bully you by using the education you have provided him the opportunity of having, forcing you to sumbit to his wishes. Talk to counsel who can be specific with you about specific issues.

As I say, we have a couple law experts here, so hopefully they will see your post and will be able to give you an idea of how to proceed now.

I do wish you well. Being a parent is so very hard at times - being a responsible parent who teaches their child what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable, even at 21 living in the home, well, he needs to start maturing just a tad. It will be difficult for you - don't let him bully you by using clever words.

1 Reply

Good post, Iz.

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Hello AParent,

I think you are doing your son a disservice in keeping him at home, paying all his bills and take his childish threats for face value. He's 21 years old and should be able to take care of himself. You are not helping him in any way to
achieve that.

Serve him a 30 day notice and then stick to it! Change the locks on your house and stop paying his bills. I'd give him one condition and that is to pay for the car expenses for an additional 3 months. That's it!

You are not helping him in becoming independent and sometimes it is
tough love that we as parents have to exercise in order to make sure our
kids will make it in life.

Good luck to you, you will need it!

1 Reply

@Izzie,

Izzie wrote:

...
Also, again, from what you state, it sounds to me that he is lauding his "criminal degree" over you. I think he is possibly even playing you for fools (seriously, I do not mean that in a disrespectful way) - of course, he insists he knows all the law and his rights and constitution (fer goodness sake)... and he does not expect you "not to believe" him. He does sound very clever.

We do have some experts here in law and I am hoping they will see your thread and give you correct legal information if possible. ...

My apologies in advance. I am not going to be nice.

Cruel and unusual punishment is a reference to the 8th Amendment to the US Constitution -- and it only applies to the Federal Government. So unless your home is the Federal Government (if it is, then I've been sending my taxes to the wrong address, lo these many years. Ewps), It. Does. Not. Apply.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Wikipedia is not a wonderful source of information but they are correct about this.

As for the rest of it, your son is a legal adult. Unless he can show that he is incompetent, or there is some sort of a binding agreement that you will continue to support him (e. g. perhaps a contract between you and him), he really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. I am no family lawyer and have not practiced for over 20 years but this guy is pretty obviously trying to scare you into being able to use you for free room and board (and, apparently, clothes, a right that is probably, in his eyes, Constitutionally guaranteed under "the pursuit of happiness" (which, BTW, ain't in the US Constitution -- it's in the Declaration of Independence, which is not a binding legal document).

Get a lawyer if you feel the need -- particularly if you feel he will become an expensive legal headache, and/or violent, and serve him with an eviction notice. Then change the locks once he's out. He will have a fine time arguing his case in court, where a Small Claims Judge will, most likely, tell him to get off his ass and get a job like the rest of us.

1 Reply

Your legal obligation ended when he turned 19.

Tell him he has 30 days to find an apartment. Agree to pay the deposit, but after that, he is on his own.

We let relatives abuse us because it's "family." Time to stop this and help him to become independent.

Stay out of his FB stuff. That is his, and you don't need to jump into his world.

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@jespah,

jespah wrote:

Izzie wrote:
...
Also, again, from what you state, it sounds to me that he is lauding his "criminal degree" over you. I think he is possibly even playing you for fools (seriously, I do not mean that in a disrespectful way) - of course, he insists he knows all the law and his rights and constitution (fer goodness sake)... and he does not expect you "not to believe" him. He does sound very clever.... edited in: manipulative - do not fall for this abuse of your trust!

We do have some experts here in law and I am hoping they will see your thread and give you correct legal information if possible. ...

My apologies in advance. I am not going to be nice.

Cruel and unusual punishment is a reference to the 8th Amendment to the US Constitution -- and it only applies to the Federal Government. So unless your home is the Federal Government (if it is, then I've been sending my taxes to the wrong address, lo these many years. Ewps), It. Does. Not. Apply.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Wikipedia is not a wonderful source of information but they are correct about this.

As for the rest of it, your son is a legal adult. Unless he can show that he is incompetent, or there is some sort of a binding agreement that you will continue to support him (e. g. perhaps a contract between you and him), he really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. I am no family lawyer and have not practiced for over 20 years but this guy is pretty obviously trying to scare you into being able to use you for free room and board (and, apparently, clothes, a right that is probably, in his eyes, Constitutionally guaranteed under "the pursuit of happiness" (which, BTW, ain't in the US Constitution -- it's in the Declaration of Independence, which is not a binding legal document).

Get a lawyer if you feel the need -- particularly if you feel he will become an expensive legal headache, and/or violent, and serve him with an eviction notice. Then change the locks once he's out. He will have a fine time arguing his case in court, where a Small Claims Judge will, most likely, tell him to get off his ass and get a job like the rest of us.

Yep! Glad you were able to clarify those points Jes - well stated, clear and concise; hopefully AParent will heed your advice.

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@PUNKEY,

PUNKEY wrote:

Your legal obligation ended when he turned 19.

Tell him he has 30 days to find an apartment. Agree to pay the deposit, but after that, he is on his own.

We let relatives abuse us because it's "family." Time to stop this and help him to become independent.

Um....

I would NOT under any circumstances offer to pay a deposit. This man has not only taken them for items, cash, room and personal time, but in doing so she may be extending him some other mental rope that he will pull.

He. Needs. To. Go.

30 days. Yup I agree there. Even catching a job at McDonalds should net him about 900 in 30 days. That is enough for a deposit.

If, and only if... he puts a deposit down, but needs a week to collect his next check to start his electricity or water? Then i would consider extending the 30 days. But I would have to A) SEE the lease. B) Confirm the lease is REAL with the office and C) see his bank account , or wallet, or check stubs to confirm he really needs that time.

When 30 days came around, I would politely box his stuff. Put it on the porch. Change the house locks, and make a call to the local police station to inform them of what you have done and why just so if he DOES begin to get physical, verbally abusive or what ever.. you have a record and one call will dispatch them immediately.

Then close your curtains, cry if you need to, but do not let him back in.

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@AParent,

AParent wrote:

A year a go I had my son packed at out the door but my husband stopped that.

If you did it once, you can do it again, and tell your husband to stay out of it this time.

21 is an adult - his attitude bugs me, like he's ENTITLED and you OWE him. You do not. Your instincts are right on. And I am the mother of a 27 yr old son who bought his own place when he was 23 and put himself through his journeyman-ship and has never asked for a dime. But then, he knew we'd expect some sort of accounting, etc.

You'll do your son a favour if you utilize Tough Love.

1 Reply

@PUNKEY,

Thank you Punkey for your reply. I see what you are saying about the FaceBook stuff however it is hard to stay out of it when it is on my news feed blaring it in my face. What I have done is deleted him from my friends. So his drivel is not in my face. The big thing though is that he chooses to deal with woos with using FaceBook. It was all about him trying to study at home but supposedly he was trying to studying for exams. So instead of going to the library were he belongs probably due to the fact that it is known that he needs quite he decided to get his posse' to give me a "what for". The problem is is that he knows for a fact that there is a court order that my ex (which by the way is one of his friends now as of the first of the year...up until that point his biological father along with his family had decided to not have contact with the children...I have custody with no support from my ex haven't in 15 years) not pry in my personal life. In fact my address is secret per the court order as well due to the abusive nature of my ex and his family. My son called me out on FaceBook in regards to his brother watching TV in a totally different part of the house and the fact that I never do anything about it. Of course I didn't respond as far as online.

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Would this be considered Cruel and Unusual Punishment?

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