Helping partner return to sex

@BillRM,

Bill, I gotta say, after reading your previous opinions on gay porn, I am truly surprised at your generosity in trying to help these two men.

gay pride would be proud of you...

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Fear of dying due to the act of having sex seems off hands to be his problem not that he is addicted to porn.

The opening post of this thread makes it very clear that long term reliance on porn, likely accompanied by masturbation, is the current problem.

The fear of possibly contracting and dying from a sexually transmitted disease is a real fear and a real concern, particularly in the gay community.

Quote:

In the USA, the UK, and a number of other European countries, HIV and AIDS have affected young gay men more than any other group of people. In the UK and USA especially, the percentage of young gay men who have been infected with HIV and the percentage with AIDS is much higher than other groups such as heterosexual people or children.

In the USA, it is estimated that nearly 255,000 men who have sex with men were living with HIV/AIDS in 2007, and nearly 5,400 had died. Around 48% of all people diagnosed with AIDS in America in 2007 were probably exposed to HIV through male-to-male sexual contact.1 In the UK, by the end of June 2009, around 45,947 diagnoses of HIV had been in men who had probably become infected through sex with another man. 53% of these men were aged below 35.2 http://www.avert.org/young-gay-men.htm

Quote:

HIV among Gay, Bisexual and Other Men Who Have Sex with Men (MSM)

Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM)1 represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV and are the only risk group in which new HIV infections have been increasing steadily since the early 1990s. In 2006, MSM accounted for more than half (53%) of all new HIV infections in the United States, and MSM with a history of injection drug use (MSM-IDU) accounted for an additional 4% of new infections. At the end of 2006, more than half (53%) of all people living with HIV in the United States were MSM or MSM-IDU. Since the beginning of the US epidemic, MSM have consistently represented the largest percentage of persons diagnosed with AIDS and persons with an AIDS diagnosis who have died...

The high prevalence of HIV infection among MSM means they face a greater risk of being exposed to infection with each sexual encounter—especially as they get older
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm

So, fears about contracting HIV hardly constitute a psychological disorder--these are real fears of a real disease. And, while having protected sex certainly diminishes the risk, condoms are not always foolproof--they can break, come off, etc.
Being in a long term relationship with someone who is HIV negative is not always foolproof either--since the partner might have unprotected sex outside of the relationship and might contract HIV that way--and that is what apparently happened to Comet83's friend, so we know what prompted him to become celibate.

So, it appears that Comet83's friend began using pornography, and probably masturbation, as a form of "safe sex". And long term use of those things, particularly as the only, or major form, of sexual arrousal, stimulation, release, and satisfaction, can definitely interfere with satisfactory sexual relations with a real partner. The person's sexual functioning and arousal has become so dependent on pornography and masturbation as cues and as sources of stimulation, in a situational context that is so significantly different than what is found in an actual contact with a real partner, that adequate sexual functioning and/or sexual satisfaction may no longer be possible with a real partner.

Not everyone who drinks is going to be become an alcoholic, and not everyone who views pornography is going to develop problems because of it. But, the explosion of available pornography, particularly on the internet, has resulted in the development of many problems associated with its consumption. And the sort of problem that Comet83's friend is experiencing is not at all atypical--as is evident from the links I've posted previously.

The solution does appear to be a re-learning process that involves long term discontinuation of all viewing of pornography and temporary discontinuation of masturbation. As with any dependency or addiction problem, it is not always easy to stop or to deprive oneself of a powerfully satisfying "substance" or source of stimulation, and that's where support groups can be most helpful. And it may require patience, and time, for the person's brain and body to "re-set" its arousal mechanisms in terms of sexual functioning, and support groups can provide encouragement during this period. But, there is little reason why the brain and body cannot re-adapt once ponography is withdrawn and masturbation temporarily stopped, so that the person can again experience a high level of sexual satisfaction with a partner, as well as experiencing other manifestations of normal sexual arousal such as wet dreams or morning erections which might have also been diminished by excessive or long term use of pornography. Pornography, like drugs, provides an intense source of stimulation and, like drugs, a person can become dependent on that level of stimulation that pornography provides. When the pornography is discontinued, the body's functions and need for that level and type of stimulation eventually diminish and return to a normal level.

Can a person with a drinking problem be harmed by abstaining from alcohol? So, why would a person who finds pornography interfering with inter-personal sex be harmed by eliminating pornography from his life?

Comet83 tells us his friend is bothered by this problem. His friend is in a new relationship and he would like to enjoy sex with Comet83, but he, " is having issues disconnecting his sex drive from porn and realliging it to an actual person".

I think Comet83 should tell his friend to check out this site. It is packed with useful information and practical guidance to help him better understand and overcome the sort of problem he is dealing with.
http://yourbrainonporn.com/about-site-us-users

1 Reply

@High Seas,

This is a common misconception about 12 step, self help programs.
The fact is, these programs work. The failures are of the individual, not the program.
I see this every day, persons seem to think treatment should be some kind of cure, rather than the educational process it actually is.
Addictions, of any type, are chronic maladies of a spiritual, as well as physical nature. The maintenance phase, of ongoing recovery, is quite often ignored.

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We dont know that porn is the problem here, it well might be that this guy associates sex with a human has a health risk, and that it is the perceived danger that keeps him non-functioning. If porn is the problem then a solution is to work porn into the lovemaking, watch porn together first and leave it on and dont get upset if he is paying attention to the porn and not you. Over time it should be possible to cut back on the porn, for instance to watch it first but then turn it off and then going into the sex.

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@Rockhead,

Quote:

Bill, I gotta say, after reading your previous opinions on gay porn, I am truly surprised at your generosity in trying to help these two men.

gay pride would be proud of you...

No sure what you are referring to.

Hmm perhaps I posted here that many decades ago a girlfriend placed a coin into the wrong projector at an adult book/sex store and I saw one hell of a sight of a circle of men who where forming the circle by means other then the holding of hands.

The sight was not repeat not enjoyable to me in fact it was sickening however that is hardly surprising given that I am not gay.

That does not means that I had anything against gays man watching materials that they find enjoyable even if it almost cause me to throw up.

Some gays men might have the same reaction to viewing porn videos that I happen to enjoy.

T o sum up my stomach is not a yard stick of what should or should not be allow.

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@hawkeye10,

Hawkeye my reaction to the story appeared similar to your that his fear of dying of an STD as a sexual partner of his did is the possible problem not that he ended up using porn as a coping device to help him live a sex partner free life.

Once more it is still my opinion that an expert should look into the matter as treating a man for a porn problem when he does not have a porn
problem is at the very best waste of time.

The poor guy had already spend ten years with this condition and that is more then enough to have the matter look into by an expert.

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@firefly,

Quote:

The fear of possibly contracting and dying from a sexually transmitted disease is a real fear and a real concern, particularly in the gay community.

Sorry there are ways of reducing such a risk to near zero even in high risk groups such as gay men.

The simplest solution is to find a sexual partner you can trust to keep his word to be faithful during the relationship and then have you both tested and if you care to be extra safe use protection on top of that.

When I and my now wife restarted a sexual relationship after years of being apart we both got screen for the full range of STDs as a sane health precaution.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

If porn is the problem then a solution is to work porn into the lovemaking, watch porn together first and leave it on and dont get upset if he is paying attention to the porn and not you. Over time it should be possible to cut back on the porn, for instance to watch it first but then turn it off and then going into the sex.

That advice is contrary to what people who have actually dealt with this problem have said about how to overcome it.

What will magically make it possible to "cut back on the porn"? Or suddenly make it possible to have sex with a partner after viewing porn together?

What you suggest is like telling an alcoholic to cut back on drinking and to try drinking socially--it doesn't work.

Quote:

We dont know that porn is the problem here, it well might be that this guy associates sex with a human has a health risk, and that it is the perceived danger that keeps him non-functioning.

That might also be true. But the man is now in a relationship with Comet83, and apparently he wants to enjoy fulfilling sex with him, and he is motivated to try to overcome the problem--which suggests he is now willing to take some risk in a relationship, and that's a good sign. But, 10 years of relying on porn for sexual stimulation and satisfaction may realistically be getting in the way of having that good sexual relationship with Comet83. Discontinuing all contact with porn, so that is no longer available as an alternative source of arousal and stimulation, will allow his body and brain the time to re-program itself in terms of his sexual functioning and help to make him more receptive to the stimuli offered by a real life partner. And, without the porn as an interfering, and competing, factor he can better identify and deal with whatever other anxieties he does have regarding sex with a partner, including issues of trust and health risks.

People who use alcohol, or drugs, or compulsive shopping, or even food, to deal with stress or anxiety, can't properly address those factors until they cease using substances or compulsive behaviors to mask those issues. And the same would be true of pornography if it is being used to help avoid the anxieties inherent in an inter-personal sexual relationship. You have to stop the porn consumption first in order to more clearly identify any other underlying problems.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

The simplest solution is to find a sexual partner you can trust to keep his word to be faithful during the relationship and then have you both tested and if you care to be extra safe use protection on top of that.

Apparently that is what Comet83's friend did in the past and his partner betrayed him, went outside of their relationship, and contracted HIV. So, banking on a partner's fidelity is not necessarily a sure thing or a "simple solution".

Quote:

Sorry there are ways of reducing such a risk to near zero even in high risk groups such as gay men.

Probably only after one is already in a long term committed relationship.

The risks, and stakes, for gay men are higher when it comes to HIV transmission, and it is ignorant of you to either regard these concerns as foolish or to see them as indicative of some deep-seated psychiatric disorder.

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@firefly,

Quote:

That advice is contrary to what people who have actually dealt with this problem have said about how to overcome it.

I submit that the cause of this advise is a moral aversion to porn, not the best interests of the subjects nor facts.

Quote:

That might also be true. But the man is now in a relationship with Comet83, and apparently he wants to enjoy fulfilling sex with him, and he is motivated to try to overcome the problem

He made his bed, now he can lie in it. One who gets messed up with a person who has not been in sexual relationship for ten years should not be so delusional as to expect his partner to ever be "normal". We go though this with those who mate with sexual abuse survivors as well, these people need to be told up front that if they want normal then they better leave abuse survivors alone.

Quote:

People who use alcohol, or drugs, or compulsive shopping, or even food, to deal with stress or anxiety, can't properly address those factors until they cease using substances or compulsive behaviors to mask those issues. And the same would be true of pornography if it is being used to help avoid the anxieties inherent in an inter-personal sexual relationship. You have to stop the porn consumption first in order to more clearly identify any other underlying problems.

People who listen to you are fucked, that is for sure. Most people know that an alcoholic who is not drinking is not cured, he is still an alcoholic just a dry one, and his life and his relationships are not necessarily better when he is dry than when he is drinking. Porn as a crutch is not a problem to the health of either person in the relationship, if one of the parties resents the need for porn then they are always free to shove off, no one is holding a gun to their head an making them stay in the relationship. Do the other person a favor and let them find someone who is more compatible with their needs.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

The good doctor Firefly is assuming that the gentleman problem is that he is addict to porn.

Something I do not see is proven by the information given on this thread

That's because you've completely disregarded what Comet83 said in his opening post when he described hs friend...

Quote:

The problem seems to lie in that he was celibate for 10 years prior to our relationship and is having issues disconnecting his sex drive from porn and realliging it to an actual person

Of course, you, who do not know this man at all, are better able to interpret the "real problem" than Comet83, who has been involved in a relationship with him for 3 months, right? Rolling Eyes

And you've already shown you know very little about the negative effects of excessive or long-term use of pornography and its impact on sexual functioning and arousal with an actual partner. If you were more knowledgeable, you would know that the problem that Comet83 described is not that all unusual.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

And you've already shown you know very little about the negative effects of excessive or long-term use of pornography and its impact on sexual functioning and arousal with an actual partner. If you were more knowledgeable, you would know that the problem that Comet83 described is not that all unusual.

Porn is rarely a problem when both parties accept it in love making and are willing to adhere to the standards of porn. What is a problem most of time is when guys what their mates to act like porn stars and to do the kinky things that they see in porn but the other person either does not want to do it or is made to feel bad by the moralists or being willing to do so. Do you really think that people get less aroused when they have a real person in front of them doing the same things that they like in porn than when they see it on their screen?? What kind of warped delusional world do you live in?

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
This is a question relating to your general statement above and not to the specific thread title: what is the success rate of these programs? From insurance statistics - recall medical insurers have to pay for these treatments - the percentage of alcoholics, obese, drug addicts, compulsive gamblers who get "cured" is under 10%.

No, medical insurers do not pay for self help/support group programs--the 12 step programs, groups like Weight Watchers, etc. which have been the most helpful in dealing with dependencies/addictions. As you note, medical approaches to such problems have been generally ineffective.

That's very interesting - thanks. I knew the dismally low success rates for "medical" approaches - which nevertheless cost insurers a lot - and didn't know about higher success rates with support groups. Is there any kind of reliable estimate for their success rates other than "better than 10%"?

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@firefly,

Quote:

The risks, and stakes, for gay men are higher when it comes to HIV transmission, and it is ignorant of you to either regard these concerns as foolish or to see them as indicative of some deep-seated psychiatric disorder.

Life is full of risks of all kinds and an adjusted person does what one can reasonably can be done to reduce risks/manage risks and then go on living.

Cutting yourself off from having sexual relationships for ten years is a course of action that most people including most people in high risks groups for HIV would not consider within the normal range of responses to that risk.

Hell driving a car on the public streets or even being in a car placed all of us at risk of being one of the forty thousands of so deaths a years in the US from car accidents and others then not driving drunk yourself and keeping your car up so the brakes etc are in working conditions and driving as carefully and as skillfully as possible the risk is out of your hands.

If someone limit his/her life greatly by refusing to be on the public highways for ten years after someone he care about was kill in a car accident most of us would be of the opinion that mental health counseling might be of help to him or her.

So once more you logic and your comment is fairly sense free Firefly at least in my opinion.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I submit that the cause of this advise is a moral aversion to porn, not the best interests of the subjects nor facts.

That's as absurd as saying that those who suggest an alcoholic stop drinking, in order to function better, are advocates of a wide-spread temperance movement.

When dependence on pornography, as a major source of sexual arousal and stimulation, interferes with sexual functioning with an actual partner, that constitutes a real problem. And the solution may be to discontinue the porn consumption in order to allow for the re-emergence of more natural sources of arousal, stimulation, and satisfaction when with an actual partner. And that course of action has absolutely nothing to do with a "moral aversion to porn"--it has everything to do with removing a factor that has a deleterious effect on inter-personal sexual functioning for this particular individual.

Quote:

He made his bed, now he can lie in it. One who gets messed up with a person who has not been in sexual relationship for ten years should not be so delusional as to expect his partner to ever be "normal". We go though this with those who mate with sexual abuse survivors as well, these people need to be told up front that if they want normal then they better leave abuse survivors alone.

Since you've previously shared the fact that your wife is a sexual abuse survivor, you apparently have a partner you can never expect to be "normal", nor are your own personal sexual predilections what most people consider "normal", so your frame of reference might be considerably skewed.

Someone who chooses to forgo sexual relations for 10 years, but finds sexual satisfaction in pornography during that time, is not necessarily abnormal--they have made a choice regarding life-style that is every bit as valid as the choices you make in your sexual behaviors.

And Comet83 has not gotten "messed-up" with this man, he is involved in a relationship with someone he describes as being "a really great guy". There is more to this relationship, and Comet83's feeling for this man, than just sex.

Quote:

Porn as a crutch is not a problem to the health of either person in the relationship, if one of the parties resents the need for porn then they are always free to shove off, no one is holding a gun to their head an making them stay in the relationship. Do the other person a favor and let them find someone who is more compatible with their needs

You seem to completely misunderstand the relationship that Comet83 described. Comet83 doesn't resent his friend's need for porn--it is his friend who is bothered by the fact that porn now turns him on more than actual sex with a partner. And this friend wants to get some help overcoming that problem which is why Comet83 started this thread.

I hope Comet83's friend will look at some of the links I've posted. I hope he will be able to move past his current problem, and I think it's entirely likely that he'll be able to do that. I think Comet83 has found someone he really likes and it would be important for his friend to work out this problem so they can enjoy a fully satisfying sexual relationship with each other, and I think Comet83 is patient and willing enough to help him do that because it sounds as if this relationship really matters to him. It's not just about sexual needs, Hawkeye, it's about a relationship. Not that I expect you to understand that either.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Give us a break Firefly as the likelihood is that the man is using porn as a means to cope with him not having a sexual partner for a decade out of fear.

We will not know until he get look at by a mental health expert something you do not think is needed just wishing to assume that his porn viewing is the problem instead.

As a male who like most males have and view porn I can tell you that it have not reduce my desire to have sexual relationships with my wife one little bit.

I once more find myself in agreement with Hawkeye that your own hangups concerning men and porn is what is driving your opinion that this gentleman problem is porn instead of associating sex with death by way of HIV.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

As a male who like most males have and view porn I can tell you that it have not reduce my desire to have sexual relationships with my wife one little bit.

I once more find myself in agreement with Hawkeye that your own hangups concerning men and porn is what is driving your opinion that this gentleman problem is porn instead of associating sex with death by way of HIV.

You and Hawkeye have extreme difficulty dissociating from your own personal experiences long enough to be able to view situations, and other people's relationships, with any degree of objectivity. If porn didn't affect your interest in sexual relationships, that means it shouldn't affect anyone else's sexual relationships--despite evidence to the contrary in the links I've posted. If you wouldn't forgo sexual relationships for 10 years, that means that anyone who would choose to do so must have a major mental disorder--simply because that's how you view such choices.

Neither you nor Hawkeye are the standards for normalcy, nor do either of you seem to have paid much attention to what Comet83 actually said about his friend, or the type of problem the friend is currently having in their relationship. You've both jumped to your own conclusions about this man's choices even though neither of you are gay or have ever been confronted with the options and realties that a gay man might have to consider regarding sex and relationships. You don't know anything about this man. Being celibate for 10 years might not have bothered him--he found sexual satisfaction in pornography. But, now that he is again in a relationship, he apparently finds that real life sources of arousal with a partner are less stimulating than what he finds in pornography, because his sexual functioning has likely become dependent on the more intense stimulation offered by visual pornographic images.

I have absolutely no hang-ups regarding either men or porn. But, when someone says that his sexual functioning with a partner does not match his arousal and stimulation from pornography, because of a history of long-term reliance and dependence on porn, and he considers this a problem, and he wants help with it, I listen to what he is saying, and I've offered suggestions which have helped others deal with the type of problem he's described.

Neither you nor Hawkeye seem to be aware that excessive or long-term reliance on pornography has negative consequences, of varying sorts, for a great many people. Because the two of you might enjoy porn without ill effect does not mean that pornography, particularly widely available internet porn, does not have any adverse effects or consequences which go beyond what your own personal experiences have been. Nor do either of you seem open to educating yourselves on the matter.

But, this thread isn't about you, or your relations with your wife, or your use of porn. And it isn't about Hawkeye, or his relations with his wife, or how he uses porn, or how he views porn. And it isn't about how either of you view celibacy. This thread isn't about either of you period.

The thread is about Comet83 and his friend. A friend that Comet83 thinks is "a really great guy"--meaning that Comet83 is happy in this relationship and wants to stay in this relationship. But, Comet83's friend is having a problem shifting his sex drive from pornography to an actual partner. And, since pornography was the friend's sole source of sexual stimulation and arousal for 10 years, the problem is understandable. And that's the problem Comet83 has asked for help with. And the help he asked for was links or books that might address this particular problem. So far, neither you nor Hawkeye have tried to give him that help.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

You've both jumped to your own conclusions about this man's choices even though neither of you are gay or have ever been confronted with the options and realties that a gay man might have to consider regarding sex and relationships.

Nonsense once more as both Hawkeye and I had suggested that there is enough reason to question your simple answer that the problem is porn and that an expert should look at this gentleman to diagnostic his problem or problems.

You are the one jumping to conclusions and then charging both of us with what you are doing!!!!!!

As far as porn being of great harm that had been a subject floated for all my 62 years of life at least in order to try to justify anti-porn laws.

There was a president commission set up during the Nixon administration on the subject and when after a year of so of looking into the matter they returned a report that they could not find any overall ill effects and the report was bury.
.

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Sorry but this nonsense had been going on forever and in the case below a report design to support the anti-porn side did the reverse.

But junk science is still being call on to support those who had a moral/religion problem with porn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President's_Commission_on_Obscenity_and_Pornography

FindingsThe commission's report, called Report of the Commission on Obscenity and Pornography, and published in 1970, recommended sex education, funding of research into the effects of pornography and restriction of children's access to pornography, and recommended against any restrictions for adults. On balance the report found that obscenity and pornography were not important social problems, that there was no evidence that exposure to such material was harmful to individuals, and that current legal and policy initiatives were more likely to create problems than solve them.[1] The report was widely criticized and rejected by Congress.[1] The Senate rejected the commission's findings and recommendations by a 60-5 vote, with 34 abstentions.[2] The senate rejected the following findings and recommendations in particular;[2]

That there was "no evidence to date that exposure to explicit sexual materials plays a significant role in the causation of delinquent or criminal behavior among youths or adults."
That "a majority of American adults believe that adults should be allowed to read or see any sexual materials they wish."
That "there is no reason to suppose that elimination of governmental prohibitions upon the sexual materials which may be made available to adults would adversely affect the availability to the public of other books, magazines, or films."
That there was no "evidence that exposure to explicit sexual materials adversely affects character or moral attitudes regarding sex and sexual conduct."
That "Federal, State, and Local legislation prohibiting the sale, exhibition, or distribution of sexual materials to consenting adults should be repealed."
President Richard Nixon, who had succeeded Johnson in 1969, also emphatically rejected the report.[3]

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Nonsense once more as both Hawkeye and I had suggested that there is enough reason to question your simple answer that the problem is porn and that an expert should look at this gentleman to diagnostic his problem or problems.

I did not go that far, I only said that we dont know that porn is the problem. I am actually not much of an advocate for going to experts and trying to be normal when one is sexually kinked, my normal advice is to look for a person who is compatibly kinked, and avoid the experts, morality shills and all manor of busybodies at all costs.

2 Replies

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