Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

@H2O MAN,

I heard the speech. Everybody knew that , ferom day one, the only thing that GOP wanted was to make the president fail. By denying the "big deal" GOP has shown us where they are standing. They really must hate AMerica . All they want is their prcious party politics as usual.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

There is no 'failure to deal' with the debt issue, outside of your caucus. Because outside of your caucus, there is no 'debt' issue.

Inside georgeob1's caucus, there was never a debt issue either. At least there wasn't when George Bush II created it. I was on Abuzz and Able2know when George Bush II threw two rounds of tax cuts to the tune of $300-400 billion a year. I was there when he started a war of choice in Iraq ($80 billion a year). I remember discussing both these issues with georgeob1 over those years. I didn't ever hear him ask: "But what about the debt issue?" Neither he nor his fellow Republicans here have an issue with debt when their own party is running it up.

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Lots of pontificating here and meaningless claims of knowing what "everyone outside Washington DC thinks", or what the outcome of the current struggle will be, but very little analysis of the problem. We will all have to wait to see how this political game really turns out.

There is great public concern about government spending and our fast-rising deficits. So far, apart from their "taxing the rich" rhetoric, the Democrats have done nothing to address the problem. Meanwhile unemployment remains high and the economy appears stuck in a very low growth mode - one that shows no sign of reducing unemployment. In addition the financial crises in Europe and several state governments are continuing to play out as reminders to everyone of the potential consequences of the failure to face facts. This can't be a good situation for the incumbent in the approaching presidential election.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

There is great public concern about government spending and our fast-rising deficits.

Bullshit there is. This is the message that I was telling you in the last post: outside your caucus, this isn't a top concern for anyone at this time. Polling is clear on this.

Not only that, but I refuse to believe that you give a ****, personally, about the debt or deficit - if, that is, you are unwilling to pay a single dime more in your tax rates to deal with these issues. There is no greater signal of lack of caring about an issue, than to claim that it's everyone else's problem to deal with it, and asking you to sacrifice to do so is somehow wrong.

IF the Republicans had led from the front on this - IF they had offered up some modest tax increases as a bargaining tool - maybe they would be taken seriously. As it is, the whole thing is a joke; an artificial crisis, ginned up by hostage-takers, who don't have the guts to tell their own caucus the truth.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

outside your caucus, this isn't a top concern for anyone at this time. Polling is clear on this.

True. And all there's even a website that collects all the posts (PollingReport.com). All one has to do is look. The deficit, spending, etc, take a very distant second place to the sputtering economy and jobs.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

This can't be a good situation for the incumbent in the approaching presidential election.

What amazes me is the large number of wealthy Dems who attend these $1000/plate dinners for Obama and yet, Obama wants to increase taxation of the rich.

I suspect that Obama won't win in 2012, if he runs again.

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@Miller,

Many wealthy people realize they need to pay more in taxes to stay wealthy. You should listen to Buffet some time.

He was interviewed on CNBC last week. He had a lot to say on the idiocy/insanity of not raising the debt ceiling. He also said that he and other business leaders were prepared to prepay taxes on August first to prevent a default if it looked like a deal was close but not yet completed. He KNOWS that a default would be devastating to the economy.

1 Reply

There was an interesting story yesterday about the mini default in 1979

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/11/politics/washingtonpost/main20078437.shtml

What people don't seem to realize is how much the default will cost the US in future interest payments. Default and you only make the deficit worse.

1 Reply

@Miller,

Miller wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

This can't be a good situation for the incumbent in the approaching presidential election.

What amazes me is the large number of wealthy Dems who attend these $1000/plate dinners for Obama and yet, Obama wants to increase taxation of the rich.

I suspect that Obama won't win in 2012, if he runs again.

Polling shows that large segments of that group want their taxes raised.

Are you guys just not able to understand, that someone could support a politician who wanted to raise their taxes?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

What people don't seem to realize is how much the default will cost the US in future interest payments.

Or what the alternatives to default will cost if the debt limit isn't raised. Presumably the US could continue their debt service if it stopped cutting Social-Security checks for seniors, or stopped buying ammunition for the army, or let Medicare and Medicaid patients die instead of paying for their treatments. But what's the cost of that?

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

If Thomas is correct concern about the public debt and spending is a "distant second" to concern about unemployment. That hardly counts as "not giving a **** about it" as you so bombastically insist.

You can't possible know my thoughts and motivations and yet you rather stupidly act as though you do.

We have enormously expanded goverrnment social programs over the past four decades, and now changing demographics and increased public appetites for more of this stuff have made it all unsustainable. Increased taxes will not solve the problem without fundamental restructuring. I believe these problems, together with the Administration's environmental agenda and its ever increasing appetite for regulation and control, are strongly related to the unusual persistence of slow growth and high unemployment which, according to Thomas is the nation's chief concern. Moreover, I believe that a large segment of the population sees these issues as coupled more or less as I do.

I see no moral or political difference between the administration's insistence that major tax increases are the necessary primary component of any reform and unwillingness to significantly alter entitlements and the Republican insistence on no new taxes. Both sides are posturing and, again, it takes two to create a deadlock.

You speak rather belligerantly about our obligation to pay more taxes. But will you really pay any more taxes under the various plans that have been proposed? If not that makes your assumed virtue here rather empty. I pay about 40% of my total income in Federal & State income taxes - after all the deductions I can find (at least those that are still allowed after the various income floors that have been accumulating over the past few years). Property taxes raise the take to about half.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Miller wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

This can't be a good situation for the incumbent in the approaching presidential election.

What amazes me is the large number of wealthy Dems who attend these $1000/plate dinners for Obama and yet, Obama wants to increase taxation of the rich.

I suspect that Obama won't win in 2012, if he runs again.

Polling shows that large segments of that group want their taxes raised.

Are you guys just not able to understand, that someone could support a politician who wanted to raise their taxes?
Cycloptichorn

I don't know anyone who wants to pay more in taxes. Do you really think that the homeless want to pay more taxes ( if they pay any at all_? Do you think the unemployed want to pay higher taxes? How about people who can't pay their mortage? Do they want to pay more in taxes?

Kids in many American families are now going to bed at night very hungry., because food is very expensive. Do you think the parents of these kids would love to pay more in taxes?

Right now, most charities you donate to count as a tax deduction on your 1040. What if Obama gets his wish in 2012 and eliminates these charitable deductions? Will people decrease their level of donation when they can't get a tax deduction?
Do you think the little kids at St. Judes Research Hospital ( for kids with cancer) will suffer when the donations fall or even cease because of this tax change?

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@Thomas,

It really isn't much different from not paying interest. Potential creditors tend to look at your total financial health, not just how you are paying like creditors.

Your bank won't give you low rates on a personal loan if you don't pay your utility bills on time.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

If Thomas is correct concern about the public debt and spending is a "distant second" to concern about unemployment. That hardly counts as "not giving a **** about it" as you so bombastically insist.

Perhaps you should have bothered to click the link and read the page instead of hiding behind your "if Thomas is correct" dodge. Then you would have noticed that Cycloptichorn and I are basically saying the same thing. These days, jobs and economic recovery is practically the only national priority respondents care about at all.

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@Miller,

Quote:

I don't know anyone who wants to pay more in taxes.

Then you need to pull your head out of the sand or where ever you are keeping it to prevent yourself from seeing reality.

I'm Rich, Tax me More - Garrett Gruener

http://edwardhunter.blogspot.com/2011/06/republicans-stop-being-stupid-tax-me.html

Quote:

a Quinnipiac University poll this year showed nearly two-thirds of those with household incomes of more than $250,000 a year support raising their own taxes to reduce the federal deficit.

Tax me more and save our country

Quote:

"The question is, Do we get more money from the person that's gonna serve me lunch today, or do we get it from me? I think we should get it from me," he [Warren Buffet] said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/05/warren-buffett-tax-cuts_n_751503.html

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Many wealthy people realize they need to pay more in taxes to stay wealthy.

BullShit!

1 Reply

@H2O MAN,

Another well researched and reasoned riposte from the waterdude.

Rap

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@Miller,

Miller wrote:

I don't know anyone who wants to pay more in taxes.

Neither do I, but I do know there are plenty of democrats that love spending other peoples money, money taken from hard working Americans via higher taxes.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
If Thomas is correct concern about the public debt and spending is a "distant second" to concern about unemployment. That hardly counts as "not giving a **** about it" as you so bombastically insist.

Perhaps you should have bothered to click the link and read the page instead of hiding behind your "if Thomas is correct" dodge. Then you would have noticed that Cycloptichorn and I are basically saying the same thing. These days, jobs and economic recovery is practically the only national priority respondents care about at all.

It was no ******* dodge at all. I merely quoted what you wrote, and trusting your veracity, had no need to check your link for something so unambiguous.

I do, however find your statement that you agree with Cyclo, that concern over the national debt & deficit is somewhere between "something no one outsdide of washington DC gives a **** about" and ""practically the only national priority respondants care about at all" rather disingenuous, given that the survey you cited, by your own report listed concern about the debt as "a distant second on the list".

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I think it's clearer than ever before that Obama wants to destroy this countries economy intentionally, it's his real agenda.

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Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

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