26
   

Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 04:33 pm
@JPB,
An egg on its face Congress will solve the FAA thing tomorrow.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 04:34 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

An egg on its face Congress will solve the FAA thing tomorrow.
A day late and a dollar short!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 10:39 pm
Quote:
The New York Times
August 4, 2011
Disapproval Rate for Congress at Record 82% After Debt Talks
By MICHAEL COOPER and MEGAN THEE-BRENAN

The debate over raising the debt ceiling, which brought the nation to the brink of default, has sent disapproval of Congress to its highest level on record and left most Americans saying that creating jobs should now take priority over cutting spending, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News Poll.

A record 82 percent of Americans now disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job — the most since The Times first began asking the question in 1977, and even more than after another political stalemate led to a shutdown of the federal government in 1995.

More than four out of five people surveyed said that the recent debt-ceiling debate was more about gaining political advantage than about doing what is best for the country. Nearly three-quarters said that the debate had harmed the image of the United States in the world.

Republicans in Congress shoulder more of the blame for the difficulties in reaching a debt-ceiling agreement than President Obama and the Democrats, the poll found.

The Republicans compromised too little, a majority of those polled said. All told, 72 percent disapproved of the way Republicans in Congress handled the negotiations, while 66 percent disapproved of the way Democrats in Congress handled negotiations.

The public was more evenly divided about how Mr. Obama handled the debt ceiling negotiations: 47 percent disapproved and 46 percent approved.

The public’s opinion of the Tea Party movement has soured in the wake of the debt-ceiling debate. The Tea Party is now viewed unfavorably by 40 percent of the public and favorably by just 20 percent, according to the poll. In mid-April 29 percent of those polled viewed the movement unfavorably, while 26 percent viewed it favorably. And 43 percent of Americans now think the Tea Party has too much influence on the Republican Party, up from 27 percent in mid-April.

“I’m real disappointed in Congress,” Ron Raggio, 54, a florist from Vicksburg, Miss., said in a follow-up interview. “They can’t sit down and agree about what’s best for America. It’s all politics.”

There were signs that the repeated Republican calls for more spending cuts were resonating with the public: 44 percent of those polled said the cuts in the debt-ceiling agreement did not go far enough, 29 percent said they were about right and only 15 percent said they went too far. More than a quarter of the Democrats polled said that the cuts in the agreement did not go far enough.

But by a ratio of more than two to one, Americans said that creating jobs should be a higher priority than spending cuts.

Though Republicans prevented tax increases from being included in the debt-ceiling deal, half of those polled said the agreement should have included increased tax revenue, while 44 percent said it should have relied on cuts alone. That issue is likely to be revisited soon: Congress is preparing to appoint a special committee to recommend ways to reduce the deficit. Sixty-three percent of those polled said that they supported raising taxes on households that earn more than $250,000 a year, as Mr. Obama has sought to do — including majorities of Democrats (80 percent), independents (61 percent) and Republicans (52 percent).

The poll found that Mr. Obama was emerging from the crisis less bruised than the Republicans in Congress.

The president’s overall job approval rating remained relatively stable, with 48 percent approving of the way he handles his job as president and 47 percent disapproving — down from the bump up he received in the spring after the killing of Osama bin Laden, but in line with how he has been viewed for nearly a year. By contrast, Speaker John A. Boehner, an Ohio Republican, saw his disapproval rating shoot up 16 points since April: 57 percent of those polled now disapprove of the way he is handling his job, while only 30 percent approve.

Americans said that they trusted Mr. Obama to make the right decisions about the economy more than the Republicans in Congress, by 47 percent to 33 percent. They were evenly divided on the question of whether he showed “strong qualities of leadership” during the negotiations, with 49 percent saying he did and 48 percent saying he did not. And they were still more likely to blame President George W. Bush for the bulk of the nation’s deficit: 44 percent said that the deficit was mostly caused by the Bush administration, 15 percent said it was mostly caused by the Obama administration and 15 percent blamed Congress.

The growing fears about the economy — amid a sinking stock market and warnings that the nation risks sliding back into recession — were reflected in the nationwide telephone poll, which was conducted Tuesday and Wednesday with 960 adults and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points.

The number of Americans who rated the economy “very bad” was the highest it had been in a year. But there was uncertainty about whether the debt-ceiling deal would help or hurt the economy: nearly half said it would have no effect, while 24 percent said it would make the economy worse and 22 percent said it would improve it.

Americans were evenly divided on the parameters of the debt-ceiling deal, in which Congress agreed to allow the federal government to borrow the money needed to pay its current obligations and avoid default on the condition that it reduce the deficit by at least $2.1 trillion over the next 10 years. Over all, 46 percent of those polled approved of the deal, while 45 percent disapproved of it.

Most of those polled said that the spending cuts included either did not go far enough or were about right. But with the nation’s unemployment rate at a stubborn 9.2 percent, 62 percent of those polled said that creating jobs should be the priority.

“Cutting spending is important, but getting people back to work is more important,” said Diane Sherrell, 56, a Republican from Erwin, N.C. “If people are working, they are more productive. There is less crime, there is less depression, there is less divorce. There are less hospital and medical bills. If you put people back to work, you are cutting spending.”

Stanley Oland, 62, a Republican from Kalispell, Mont., said that the government needed new jobs to generate the economic activity and the revenue it requires.

“That revenue supports the basic foundation for the economy, creates more jobs and stimulates the economy,” he said. “Unless you have working people you don’t have revenue from taxes. If you cut spending, jobs will be eliminated and you won’t get any revenue. Every dollar spent creates jobs.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/us/politics/05poll.html?hp
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 11:31 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
....... A gun becomes a weapon of mass destruction. The hostages turn into a children's hospital staffed by nuns. Congress, of course, continues to be a terrorist organization.

In fairness to posters here (starting with our host) no-one has brought up the terrorism allegation - or even quoted Pelosi in her immortal "we're trying to save life on this planet as we know it" referring to the inevitable budget cutbacks. Assorted unspecified hostages have been mentioned by some, as have unsubstantiated allegations of drug use by George OB, the idea that I might be in cahoots with Adm. Mullen to push the country over a cliff, and (on this page) that the latest FAA bill passage involved anything more than Reid capitulating and passing the bill the House sent to the Senate weeks ago - it didn't.

Our problem is a terrifying debt overhang - the fact we share the overhang with Europe and Japan doesn't make anybody's economic recovery easier:
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2011/07/AAAratings.jpg
http://www.bis.org/publ/joint26.pdf
Debts will either have to be written off - at the cost of debtholders, incl. banks - or inflated away - at the cost of savers and fixed income recipients. The alternative is to stumble along as we - and the EU - have been doing, hoping for growth and jobs that can't materialize as long as the debt overhang persists.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 11:50 am
@High Seas,
Quote:

Debts will either have to be written off - at the cost of debtholders, incl. banks - or inflated away - at the cost of savers and fixed income recipients. The alternative is to stumble along as we - and the EU - have been doing, hoping for growth and jobs that can't materialize as long as the debt overhang persists.


Well, I agree with this completely. And I've been calling for both (debt writeoffs at the expense of banks and investment houses who made foolish decisions re: mortgages and securities) and inflation (the Fed should set a target rate at 4% and just pump money into the economy until we hit it) until the problems begin to correct themselves.

Of course, Conservatives have called me all sorts of names for daring to suggest what you suggest above; I don't think it's Dems and Liberals who are preventing these things from occurring.

Cycloptichorn
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Glad to see you agree - but how can you then not see that step one is to stop the bleeding by preventing the debt from getting larger still?!
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 12:01 pm
@High Seas,
absolutely...kudos HS
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 12:02 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Glad to see you agree - but how can you then not see that step one is to stop the bleeding by preventing the debt from getting larger still?!


I do see that. I have long claimed that the only path to fiscal sanity in our nation is to cut our spending AND raise taxes. There is no other path to balancing our budget in any reasonable time frame. Simply cutting spending will not stop the debt from growing larger; even Ryan's idiotic 'budget' posits debt growth as far as the eye can see.

I would also point out that this is the majority position for the country. The only people who don't agree are far-left wingers who seem to believe that tax raises for the rich will balance the budget, and far-right wingers who believe that cutting spending alone will do the trick.

If step one is to get the deficit under control, why the hell are Conservatives willing to live and die by preventing any and all new revenues from being realized?!?! It doesn't seem serious.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:29 pm
Quote:
Italy pledged on Friday to work swiftly for a constitutional amendment requiring the government to balance its budget, as Rome feverishly tried to assure domestic and foreign investors its finances are sound and calm nervous markets in Europe.

Premier Silvio Berlusconi told a hastily convened evening news conference the government will "speed up measures" in its budget law approved last month by Parliament, "with the possibility of reaching a balanced budget by 2013 instead of 2014" as first planned.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Italy-to-balance-budget-amid-apf-4189344609.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

Kinda shreds the argument that the Tea Party is whack for demanding a balanced budget amendment.....
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Kinda shreds the argument that the Tea Party is whack for demanding a balanced budget amendment.....


No, it doesn't. A balanced budget amendment would be idiotic for a wide variety of reasons.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Kinda shreds the argument that the Tea Party is whack for demanding a balanced budget amendment.....


No, it doesn't. A balanced budget amendment would be idiotic for a wide variety of reasons.

Cycloptichorn
I think it is wrong, but you can not say that the idea is whack when other Western Democracies are wanting to do it too. You are now forced to make your case against it, you can not blow off the call to do it is as crazy and not deal with it further, which has been the approach from the left up till now.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

I think it is wrong, but you can not say that the idea is whack when other Western Democracies are wanting to do it too.


Sure I can. Just because our peers make poor decisions, doesn't make them decisions worth considering doing here.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Sure I can. Just because our peers make poor decisions, doesn't make them decisions worth considering doing here.
That is so if you are the king of your realm. If on the other hand you are one amongst many in a democracy then you dont get to choose what is worthy of consideration, we decide that as a collective. We dont need to consider the rantings of crazy people, but now that the Tea Party advocates are clearly not crazy there call must be considered. There is no choice in the matter, if you refuse that choice makes you an enemy of democracy.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:56 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
At the beginning of the recession Gordon Brown was Prime minister and Barack Obama was just about to become President. There was a sense of international cooperation that stimulated the economy and started to turn the recession around.

Now the Tories are in charge in the UK, and the Tea Party are throwing their weight around in Cognress. The focus has moved from jobs to debt. The recovery has been stalled by savage cuts on both sides of the Atlantic. If you want to reduce the deficit you need growth. The fiscal policies risk, at worse a double dip recession, but most likely stagnation.

The reason Italy has announced a tightening of it's fiscal policy is that there is no longer a spirit of international cooperation. Berlusconi has claimed 'speculative attacks' are being carried out on Italy, at bit like Black Wednesday in the UK. Italy had no choice.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Italy can't print its own currency any more than the several states that also have balanced budget amendments - so a BBA makes sense for them.

But debt and deficit are two different things, and the main problem here is debt.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 01:59 pm
@High Seas,
No response to my question, regarding why those who claim that the debt and deficit are the absolute top priorities to address right now are so against paying a single dime of additional taxes - which are at rock-bottom levels - to address that problem?

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 02:01 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Italy can't print its own currency any more than the several states that also have balanced budget amendments - so a BBA makes sense for them.
An arguement that I am sure will be made during the consideration of the amendment. However, my argument is that we now must have the conversation, that those who are calling for this can no longer be blown off.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 02:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We dont need to consider the rantings of crazy people, but now that the Tea Party advocates are clearly not crazy there call must be considered.


Who said they are clearly not crazy? This is a false assertion on your part.

If not crazy, they certainly are economically ignorant. Which means that perhaps we shouldn't take their economic proposals seriously.

What more; this is, as you say, a Democracy. If the Tea Party wants a balanced budget amendment to be passed, I suggest they get enough politicians elected to do so and a president who will sign the bill. Good luck with that, considering that polling has shown that they currently are at some of their lowest approval ratings ever.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 02:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Please read what you wrote and what I wrote before asking questions: I clearly and repeatedly said the problem is the debt. Surpluses and deficits are for one year only - they are flows; the debt is a stock. Not the same thing at all.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2011 02:24 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Please read what you wrote and what I wrote before asking questions:

I clearly and repeatedly said the problem is the debt. Surpluses and deficits are for one year only - they are flows; the debt is a stock.


Uh, if we can't get rid of systemic year-over-year deficits, we won't be able to stop the increase of the debt(something you said was pretty important a few posts ago), let alone begin to pay it down.

An inability to deal with the deficit issue precludes us from dealing with the debt issue. Or do you disagree?

Cycloptichorn
 

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