Atheism speak your mind about religion

@reasoning logic,

What the heck do pedophiles and rapists have to do with this? I don't know what other people should do. I know what I should do.

2 Replies

@Arella Mae,

I can only guess that pedophiles and rapists would believe that they should be able to get away with the behavior they engage in!
When you say that {I don't know what other people should do} Are you referring to these kind of people as well? I would not think so!

If other people believe that it is OK for their goat to ride in the passenger seat of a car with them and that their wives should wear an Islamic burka and ride in the trunk with the lid open, would you still not know what these people should do?
Maybe there is nothing wrong with what these people believe?

Where would men get such Ideas from, 'that it would be OK to treat someone in such a way?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Now you are saying I said things I did not say. First of all, why would you equate pedophiles and rapists with religious beliefs? I am sure they think they should be able to get away with it but considering it is against the law, it's pretty obvious they still make the choice to commit the acts and they know it is wrong. You keep throwing new things into the mix. We are supposedly talking about religious beliefs and then all of a suddenyou are throwing criminals in there?

Let me try to sum this up for you reasoning. I am a Christian. I am happy being a Christian. Of course I believe it is the right path just as anyone else in any religion or set of beliefs believes they are on the right path. I am like everyone else. I believe I have found a good thing and I want to share it because I care about other people.

However, the minute I decide for someone else what it is they SHOULD believe or DO that caring has gone out the window and I'm forcing someone and that's not right. Scripture says to preach the gospel, not beat someone up with it.

I have opinions on things like burkas and goats riding in cars but because I have an opinion does that mean I should jump in there and try to change that other person's view to mine? A resounding no would be the answer.

If someone wants to know about Christianity and they know I am a Christian I will gladly share with them. Even scripture tells us to not try to force it. Unfortunately, the way it is stated in the bible is taken by so many "so called" Christians that they can call other people names and that isn't the point of it at all.

I have no idea what set of beliefs you hold. I haven't asked you because I didn't want this to be a "my belief vs. your belief" type of thing. The simple truth is this, I am what I am and I am happy. I am learning everyday how to be a better person and do the right things. What difference should it make to you or anyone else exactly what I attribute that change to?

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Please do not think that I would try to say that you said something that you did not.
I had a question mark behind that sentence and I also included that I would not think that you would agree with the bad behavior that I was using as a example!

By the way I find your way of thinking to be humble and I like that very much! Lady like for the most part with a little emotions at times but we are human so I would expect that!

I try not to exalt myself neither because I find that to be arrogant.

I do have to admit that you come across a little bizarre at times but don't you find the same about me? even though I am trying not to offend I may seem to come across that way at least a little bit.

I am try to stay away from any thing that might seem offensive to your religious belief

I am not only talking about religious beliefs in the conversations that we have but all sorts of beliefs!

I would like to introduce you to a very kind person a gentleman "at least I have never seen him act any other way!

This is Neuroscientist Dr David Eagleman

The Brain and The Law

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5QObhuLxso

2 Replies

@reasoning logic,

I will listen to that video tomorrow on my lunch hour. I am just too wiped out tonight to listen and it wouldn't be fair if I didn't give it my full attention.

I don't find you bizarre. You seem concerned about not offending others and I think that's a good quality to have. But, this is the Spirituality & Religion Forum so to me that says that is what we discuss and that's why I was keeping to that topic.

I will watch that tomorrow and I will get back with you. You have not offended me so don't worry about that.

0 Replies

@Arella Mae,

I do not believe that other cultures are perverse just because they advocate and value ideas and actions I (in my culture) find repugnant. Nevertheless, I am existentially compelled by my values to inhibit them when I can. I admit it is a violation of my (cultural and moral) theoretical relativism, but my actions and values here are necessarily inconsistent with my theory. The only reason I can accept the U.S. presence in Afganistan is an existential drive to protect its girls and women from the cultural values of the Taliban. It is a simple matter of intercultural conflict.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Huh? JLN, I am not sure why you are telling me that.

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

I watched as much of that video as I could handle. I still find science very boring. Concerning the video and what he said................to me, it sounds like one more way for man to escape taking responsibility for their own actions. Sure, brain damage can change a person's personality and behavior as can tumors, etc., no doubt. What has that to do with an undamaged mind that makes the choice to do wrong? It all comes down to we are responsible for the acts we commit and the choices we make. I hear people blame God all the time that it's his fault because he knew we were going to do wrong, etc. I hear people blame their behaviors on their past, their environment, etc. Personally, I think it's all a bumch of malarkey. When I hurt people in my past, I knew I was doing it. I knew I had made the choice to do it and I knew it was wrong. I just used the excuse of being abused. I was abused but it's no excuse!

Reasoning, I may be wrong but you seem to be looking to prove something and I'm not sure what that is.

To be fair, I am doing some reading on this doctor. I didn't watch all the video so there was a possibility I missed something but I don't think so. This is basically saying what I said............it's escaping taking personal responsibility and in the below paragraph, the dopamines get to take the blame.

Quote:

Recent work suggests that fluctuations in dopamine delivery at target structures represent an evaluation of future events that can be used to direct learning and decision making. To examine the behavioral consequences of this interpretation, we gave simple decision making tasks to 66 human subjects and to a network based on a predictive model of mesencephalic dopamine systems. The human subjects displayed behavior similar to the network behavior in terms of choice allocation and the character of deliberation times. The agreement between human and model performances suggests a direct relationship between biases in human decision strategies and fluctuating dopamine delivery. We also show that the model offers a new interpretation of deficits that result when dopamine levels are increased or decreased through disease or pharmacological interventions. The bottom-up approach presented here also suggests that a variety of behavioral strategies may result from the expression of relatively simple neural mechanisms in different behavioral contexts.

So, I guess given the right drugs or stimulants, you can DIRECT someone's decision making? What happened to making decisions based on what is right and what is wrong?

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae" wrote:

to me, it sounds like one more way for man to escape taking responsibility for their own actions.

It's not about escaping that responsibility, it's about finding how much they are responsible for, and how to influence the neuro connections in the brain to affect how the mind processes information and strengthen the area's of the brain to help a person become a better citizen in society.

Arella Mae" wrote:

What has that to do with an undamaged mind that makes the choice to do wrong? It all comes down to we are responsible for the acts we commit and the choices we make.

Different parts of the brain send different "suggestions" to our minds which affect how we think and interpret things. If those are damaged, then they they throw a lot of different things "out of whack", while a normal undamaged mind, may have certain parts working more than others which can cause some mild alterations with how the mind processes. There was an example of that in the video as pertaining to smokers and how the part of the brain that contributes to instant gratification works more than the part that contributes to long term planning. Thus the mind is more influenced to continue smoking because it feels good, rather than caring about all the future health effects.

Arella Mae" wrote:

I knew I had made the choice to do it and I knew it was wrong. I just used the excuse of being abused. I was abused but it's no excuse!

Depending on your reasons for doing that, you made have influenced in order to doing those things. It wouldn't be an excuse, just a factor in the reason why. There are various drugs that can assist with the neuro transmitters within your brain and how they transmit those "influences" to the brain in which may have taken you out of the "red". It's not always just one thing that causes us to do certain thing, but a collection of them, by alleviating the extra "influence" that you may have been receiving from that, that could have made all of the other things pushing you towards hurting more easy to manage.

2 Replies

@Chights47,

I understand what you are trying to say but when it all comes down to brass tacks we are responsible for whatever choices we decide to make in whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.

1 Reply

@Chights47,

Quote:

It's not always just one thing that causes us to do certain thing, but a collection of them, by alleviating the extra "influence" that you may have been receiving from that, that could have made all of the other things pushing you towards hurting more easy to manage.

I think that you may have said it better than I could!

There are many things that need to be consider and the video did not speak very much about these other things that need to be considered.

Psychology would be another good place to do some research!

I sure hope that Arella Mae can understand that science is not looking for excuses for not excepting reality.

0 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Your statement implies that you're thinking about this in black and white, either someone is responsible for their actions, or they aren't. I would assume that you wouldn't state that Charles Whitman was responsible for his actions due to his circumstances with his brain tumor(2:15 in the video). With that in mind, we start to get into "dividing the colors of the rainbow". Basically it's about where you would draw the line on whether someone is or is not responsible for their own actions. There are a vast amount of questions in which factor into that "line" between whether a person is or is not responsible for their actions. This is why I state that the responsibility for the crime and the workings of the brain in a sort of scale. Everyone is responsible for their actions to some extent, as well as they are also influenced to some extent. If they are influenced greatly (such as the case with Charles Whitman), their responsibility for that incident is incredibly low. While your average murderer with little very little neurological abnormalities would be vastly more responsible for their actions. Basically, with these scientific advancements we can make it so that people no longer "influenced" into doing these things and can focus their attention elsewhere...or at least not as much.

To put it simply, with the normal human brain there's both positives and negatives. Some people call doing these negative things: giving in to "temptation". Everyone feels the pull of that "temptation", but some people feel it more strongly than others. With these scienific advancements, we can create medicines that help people reduce the amount of "pull" of those "temptations" thus letting them be able to focus on more positive things rather than battling with that pull towards negativity.

1 Reply

@Chights47,

That man had a brain tumor that caused him to act the way he did. I think I mentioned there are medical reasons that would not apply to someone taking responsibility for their behavior. If I hadn't mentioned it, I apologize.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the "behavior on a scale." You can if you want, but I don't.

Quote:

To put it simply, with the normal human brain there's both positives and negatives. Some people call doing these negative things: giving in to "temptation". Everyone feels the pull of that "temptation", but some people feel it more strongly than others. With these scienific advancements, we can create medicines that help people reduce the amount of "pull" of those "temptations" thus letting them be able to focus on more positive things rather than battling with that pull towards negativity.

I see. Cure them with pills? I am sorry but that is still nothing IMO other than taking responsibility for one's own actions and blaming it on something else, anything else, or anyone else.

And just who gets to decide how much pull someone should have?

2 Replies

@Arella Mae,

When you wake up in the morning do you decide whether you are going to be a nice person or a evil person? My guess is that you enjoy treating people respectfully and that you would think that it would be so to speak mentally retarded rather than to be mentally advanced to do other wise.

I wonder if it could be possible for people to be negative, positive, criminal, hateful, carefree, bashful, shameful attracted to some one, aroused, so on and so on without even considering to themselves before they have these thoughts, feelings or desires!

Without studying physics I can not see where I would be creditable on the subject!
Do you think that it would be possible for me, "to be as informed as someone who has studied physics for years?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

You seem to equate intelligence with how someone treats someone. I don't treat people kindly because I am not an idiot. I treat people with kindness because it is the right thing to do. I am like everyone else. I get hateful thoughts and have to redirect them and tell myself they are wrong. I make the decision to do that. Many people don't think of others first. They think about their own wants and needs and ignore those of others. I was that way at one time. I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway because it was what I wanted. It had nothing to do with intelligence.

I couldn't speak a thing about physics because I don't know a thing about it. I really try not to speak to things I don't know because it would be dishonest and actually quite foolish.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Quote:

I was that way at one time. I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway because it was what I wanted. It had nothing to do with intelligence.

OK so you became more informed and that gave you a different view point of how people should be treated. It sounds to me like psychology!

Did your environment change? Were you exposed to others that helped you to see more clearly? Maybe you read a book that helped {the bible}? Maybe you went to a church that taught how to be more ethical? Maybe over the years you became wiser?

Do you consider it to be foolish to be hateful?

Do you think that the kingdom of god is within you?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

I'm not sure you'll like my answer, reasoning, but I will give it to you. I became a Christian for real. Oh for years I said I was one but nothing in my life would have been evidence of it. Can I tell you it was because I read the bible? No. I honestly cannot tell you what it was that made me change other than to say it was God. When I first came on A2K I so desperately wanted to know the answer to one question. What made me believe and others not? I never found that answer other than some believe and some do not. I only know that once I became a true Christian my whole life changed. It changed in every area.

Is it foolish to be hateful? In a sense, yes. Hate only hurts the person harboring it.

Is the kingdom of God within me? I believe I am part of the kingdom of God but it surely does not rest within only me.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Quote:

Is it foolish to be hateful? In a sense, yes. Hate only hurts the person harboring it.

And those who you are being hateful to

Quote:

Is the kingdom of God within me? I believe I am part of the kingdom of God but it surely does not rest within only me.

Yes I would think that it would be within others as well! Something I just learned from someone you did not admire!

I did not know that Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you!

0 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

That man had a brain tumor that caused him to act the way he did. I think I mentioned there are medical reasons that would not apply to someone taking responsibility for their behavior. If I hadn't mentioned it, I apologize.

Medical reasons are the entire point of this. What you're claiming is different with this whole thing pretty much just amounts to the difference between a push and a pull, they come from separate sides but the person still moves regardless.

Arella Mae wrote:

Cure them with pills? I am sorry but that is still nothing IMO other than taking responsibility for one's own actions and blaming it on something else, anything else, or anyone else.

Ok...do you also believe that clinical depression is cured with "sunshine and rainbows"? Are people who are bi-polar helped with wishful thinking? It's literally the exact same thing, just with different portions of the brain and different chemicals within the brain. With that in mind, what's the difference between a "criminal" and a person that's depressed? The difference is that a depressed person hurts internally, while a "criminal" hurts externally and that's all. We're just conditioned to reject and shun them without a further thought. This isn't really about excusing a persons actions for the most part. It's about reasons that lead to the why we do these things to help them stay aware from those paths. It's just a part in the rehibilitation process in which would make the entire process incredibly more effective.

Arella Mae wrote:

And just who gets to decide how much pull someone should have?

It would be based on the scientific examination of their brain, which leads me to the ratio. Justice would still be served and if there is something wrong with that person, then they would be helped so that they could become more contructive members of society.

2 Replies

@Chights47,

Quote:

It's literally the exact same thing, just with different portions of the brain and different chemicals within the brain. With that in mind, what's the difference between a "criminal" and a person that's depressed? The difference is that a depressed person hurts internally, while a "criminal" hurts externally and that's all.

There is no definite answer, as of yet, to wether it is thought that influences the chemicals in the brain or the chemicals in the brain that influences thoughts. It is probably a mutual relationship. Drugs can make you happy, but so can "wishful thinking" as you put it. Negative thought patterns can bring you down, but so can drugs.
I am wary of psychiatrists who think that everything can be cured with drugs, by regulating the chemical balance in the brain. They seem oblivious to the the idea that doing so might just be like picking the dandelions on your lawn, thinking they won't come back. But they will, because you didn't remove the root.
The sciences you speak so in favor of are dangerously biased by the need for profit. They love temporary solutions, because it keeps you coming back for more.

Your analogy of crime and depression leads me to believe that you have little or no experience in either.

1 Reply

Atheism speak your mind about religion

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know