9
   

Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 04:27 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
In contrast, Hawkeye, Bill, and Spendius have conjectured endlessly - which is ok if a combo of annoying and boring - but also repetitively anti women.


What does that say about the threads you don't read or contribute to. Your appearance on here is objective evidence that you don't find it boring or annoying.

Me? Anti-woman?? You must be joking.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 04:46 am
@firefly,
Quote:
After all, this wasn't DSKs first forced, excuse me, alleged forced sexual act.


There's no point reading any further after that. The locution is understandable in conversation but not in a typed out and edited piece where the correction should be un-necessary. Anybody going in for deliberate slimy smears of that type is not worth anybody reading. Slimy people should be avoided at all times. Get near them and the slime will be coming your way as soon as there's a dispute about anything.

The editor of the Seattle Business Insight Examiner wants his/her head examining for letting stuff like that go out under his/her name.

Have you been dredging in the murky depths ff? It's very revealing you know.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 05:14 am
@hawkeye10,
Listen hawk--the other side don't nitpick each other like that. Perhaps your need to point out my mistake is an important reason why we lose all the arguments. The solidarity of our opponents is difficult enough to dispute with without us pointing out minor errors to each other.

I'll give the left one thing. They are pretty loyal to each other. You could have let that go.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 09:58 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
The belligerent and repetitive hostility to women on this thread is boggling.

That's the real purpose of this thread for those three--it's simply another venue, and another opportunity, to express their seemingly boundless hostility toward women, all women.

Essentially it's hate speech--not unlike what you'd find on KKK or Aryan Nation Web sites, it's just directed at gender rather than race, or religion or ethnicity. Although at least two of these posters do take bigoted swipes at racial and religious groups as well as females. And Hawkeye, has actually claimed victimization based on the possession of his Aryan genitalia.

It's interesting, but not at all surprising, that they become most vociferous, and downright crude, in threads about sexual assaults. How best to sock it to a woman than with a good sexual assault--just like they did it in the old days, the glory days for men, before nasty laws cramped their style and women dared to open their mouths and complain. No one knows their place any more, certainly not the uppity women, and, to afford them any respect and dignity is just PC nonsense--slap them down and rub it in their face, that's how you prove you're a real man, that's how you champion men's rights. So, I see some of these postings as the equivalent of burning crosses, or graffiti swastikas, symbols of hostility and provocation that say a lot more about the people that display them than their target group.

Bigotry is repetitive and boring because, after you listen to hate speech for a while, it stops eliciting an emotional reaction, you simply expect that's what will always come out of certain people's mouths. Yeah, sometimes you, or I, or someone else, will try to argue with it, but it's always pointless, you can't reason with someone whose premises are basically irrational, they will deny and rationalize, and, if necessary, launch another garbage-filled grenade, and you're just back where you started and eager for the stench to clear.

When you have internet anonymity, you don't even have to bother covering yourself with a white sheet, so true misogynists can revel in it like pigs rolling in ****, and you can almost hear their squeals of delight. Throw in a little talk of sexual assault, and they're in heaven.

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 10:53 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Me? Anti-woman?? You must be joking

Then you apparently have the insight of a fruit-fly.
Quote:
I believe osso because I can't see any reason for her making it up at this stage. Nor can I see any reason for her making the allegation which does not call into question her judgment in doing so. Her eagerness to reveal that she was once raped can have a number of motives....If I was a woman and had been raped I would hide it if possible...

Ah, so osso should have kept silent, covered-up her shame, or whatever you think should compel a woman to keep such a secret, about having been vulnerable to an assault by a predator. And why should she do this? Why should she not speak out about a criminal violation committed on her body?

Well, Spendi, you've given us your answer...
Quote:
So why has osso chosen to make this revelation? It has no bearing on the thread that I can see. It does show that osso was so irresistably attractive that some bloke risked 25 years in jail for her

So, osso was so "irresistibly attractive" that she caused her own rape. And she's told us about it because she wants us to know how "irresistibly attractive" she was--in fact, she was "eager" to tell us this. But, isn't that also why she should hide it according to you, because "she asked for it", if not directly, then certainly by brazenly displaying her irresistible attractiveness to some poor hapless male who, upon sight of such riches, simply could not contain his desire for them. And the proof of her irresistible attractiveness is in her rape, right, Spendi?

Woman cause their own rapes...the temptations they provide explain the rape. The victim, and not the rapist, is to be held accountable for the rape...DSK couldn't help it, the maid was wearing a skirt...

You've elevated victim-blaming to new heights in this thread, Spendi...along with displaying a profound lack of understanding of the dynamics of sexual assault--which have nothing to do with the attractiveness and enticements of the other person, and everything to do with needs for power, domination, and conquest--and not even affording the target/victim the basic human dignity of any choice in the matter.
Quote:
Me? Anti-woman?? You must be joking

As I said, you have the insight of a fruit-fly.





BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 01:09 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
to express their seemingly boundless hostility toward women, all women.




Just women like you who wish to treat other women as children and who does not see a moral problem with declaring that there is no real way for a man to clear his name after being charge with a sexual assault as even a jury verdict of not guilty will not do it.

Men should be presume guilty at being charge and the only thing that a not guilty verdict mean is that a man got away with an sexual assault.

Who consider all men as rapists in waiting at the very best where posters need to be put up on walls with warnings about not to rape to all the male students on college campuses.

Who knowing support the spreading of false/misleading information on the number of sexual assaults happening and who hate the fact that such records as the FBI database indicate that reported sexual assaults are at a 31 years or so in the US.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:11 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Just women like you who wish to treat other women as children

You are the one making the ridiculous assumption that to provide all people, and not just women, with the protections of law, whether it's to protect their bodies, or their property, or their money, or anything else, is to "treat them like children". Rather a simplistic view of the law you have, don't you think?
Quote:
there is no real way for a man to clear his name after being charge with a sexual assault as even a jury verdict of not guilty will not do it...Men should be presume guilty at being charge and the only thing that a not guilty verdict mean is that a man got away with an sexual assault.

Either you are incapable of actually comprehending what I do say, or you deliberately distort my comments in order to create a strawman you can argue against--and it's probably a combination of both.

Criminal cases, and not just sexual assault cases, do not go to trial without the state providing some compelling evidence in support of their contention that the defendant is guilty--and that evidence always goes beyond a single complaining witness. Anyone following an entire trial will generally find that a cogent case has been made for the defendant's guilt, although that case might ultimately fall short of eradicating all reasonable doubt in the jury's mind, causing a not guilty verdict to be returned. That does not mean that those in the public, who have listened to the state's case, will necessarily wind up agreeing with the jury. Some people will remain convinced of the defendant's guilt, or will at least remain with reasonable doubts about the defendant's innocence. That is true with all crimes, and not just crimes of sexual assault. Trials are held to decide whether someone is to be held legally accountable for an action, they can clear someone's name in terms of legal penalties, but, particularly in highly publicized cases, they might not completely clear someone's name in the court of public opinion. Many considered O.J. to be a murderer, and Michael Jackson to be a child molester, although both were found not guilty at their criminal trials. Short of holding all trials, both criminal and civil, in secret, there is really no way of preventing some damage to a person's reputation by virtue of the fact that they were placed on trial and some compelling evidence against them was presented.

The issue is not unique to sexual assault matters--it would apply to all public judicial proceedings/trials in which a person has been accused of wrongdoing and evidence against them was presented. And I am not in favor of trying all such matters in secret in order to remedy the situation. One of the virtues of our judicial system is its very openess to public scrutiny.
Quote:
Who consider all men as rapists in waiting at the very best where posters need to be put up on walls with warnings about not to rape to all the male students on college campuses.

What utter nonsense. Reminding college age people about the law in that way is no different than reminding them not to drink and drive. No one wants to see anyone, particularly young adults, do anything thoughtless, or reckless, which could potentially harm themselves and someone else, and reminding them to exercise good judgment seems a responsible deterrent approach.




hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Short of holding all trials, both criminal and civil, in secret, there is really no way of preventing some damage to a person's reputation by virtue of the fact that they were placed on trial and some compelling evidence against them was presented.
Very few cases get to trial, and you have not said anything against the current state practice of going out of their way to assault the reputation of the accused.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That's the real purpose of this thread for those three--it's simply another venue, and another opportunity, to express their seemingly boundless hostility toward women, all women.


That's an assertion and one you have relied upon for far too long with which to browbeat people. It is false and I for one would assert that your position is damaging to women. And I gave reasons. I make my case FOR women. For no other reason.

There are costs to all activities. Driving has great cost.

Quote:
There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States -- one death every 13 minutes.


And we know something similar will happen next year. We allow, encourage even, women and men to mix freely at work and socially and we allow women to dress in ways which are obviously intended to stimulate men. That has a cost. We balance that cost against the benefits of non segregation. The so called Arab Spring is partially a demand to accept that cost.

We could probably eradicate food poisoning entirely if we were prepared to pay four times as much for food and accept more limited choices.

I think you are a danger to women.

There's no hate speech from me. osso got the hate speech out. I don't see any women being slapped down and anything rubbed in their faces. They have their husbands and boyfriends on a set of puppet strings as far as I can see.

But I must admit that it is good fun aggravating women like you. Especially when I know you are in favour of putting women of a lower caste than yourself into uniform. Which is an affront to feminine dignity and sensibility taking place all around you everyday for ever and ever. I would guess you are also in favour of women, by the million, poisoning themselves and inserting mechanical contrivances into their bodies so that men can bang away at them without responsibility or inconvenience. Being spayed. And having access to abortion (46 million since Roe/Wade) when there's a slip up. Being comprehensively denatured in other words. And behind closed doors. Of all the films of operations, and there are many, there's none of an abortion. It is obviously a matter of deep shame.

You milk at this triviality, by the side of those matters, to cover up your acquiesence regarding them and to make it look like you're into bat for women the easy way. And you're not. It's an affectation. And having it exposed to view is getting you mad.

You won't shout me down with your nasty remarks.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:30 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Essentially it's hate speech--not unlike what you'd find on KKK or Aryan Nation Web sites, it's just directed at gender rather than race, or religion or ethnicity. Although at least two of these posters do take bigoted swipes at racial and religious groups as well as females. And Hawkeye, has actually claimed victimization based on the possession of his Aryan genitalia.

It's interesting, but not at all surprising, that they become most vociferous, and downright crude, in threads about sexual assaults. How best to sock it to a woman than with a good sexual assault--just like they did it in the old days, the glory days for men, before nasty laws cramped their style and women dared to open their mouths and complain. No one knows their place any more, certainly not the uppity women, and, to afford them any respect and dignity is just PC nonsense--slap them down and rub it in their face, that's how you prove you're a real man, that's how you champion men's rights. So, I see some of these postings as the equivalent of burning crosses, or graffiti swastikas, symbols of hostility and provocation that say a lot more about the people that display them than their target group.


1) I must have missed the part of my history lessons where the KKK tried to enact change through the law, open conversation and votes

2) Agitating to change opinions or change the laws does not need mean that those whom it is argued are unfairly advantaged are hated. You never heard many men claiming until recently that the feminists hate men, it would be nice if you women would try to resist getting all emotional about how you are hated when men make their voices heard that the feminist agenda has gone too far, that it now victimizes men. Men are not the only ones who point this out either, as many conservative women say the same thing.


Quote:
When you have internet anonymity, you don't even have to bother covering yourself with a white sheet, so true misogynists can revel in it like pigs rolling in ****, and you can almost hear their squeals of delight.
You sound just like IdiotBill here, and look where that temper tantrum got him. Are you better than him as a salesman for this allegation?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:35 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
You won't shout me down with your nasty remarks.
That is not her aim, her aim is to marginalize our voices.....it is to put all on notice that anyone who dares support us publicly will be subject to attack. She is the dictionary definition of a bully, and since she knows that she can not bully us she is working on everyone else.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:46 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
in that way is no different than reminding them not to drink and drive


Bullshit most men do not need to be reminded by walls posters not to steal, murder, or rape.

Raping is not in the same class as driving drunk any more then murder is and it made as must sense to post anti-murder posters around campus as anti-rape posters.

Thanks for making my point that you view all men as rapists in waitings only being held back by fear of the law.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Very few cases get to trial, and you have not said anything against the current state practice of going out of their way to assault the reputation of the accused.

The case we are discussing in this thread is going to trial, and I have not seen where the state has gone out of its way to assault the reputation of DSK, other than to make public the charges against him, just as they would with anyone charged with any crime.

And, at the time of trial, we will hear the evidence they have against him.

DSK's reputation is being assaulted by the surfacing of all the reports of his past inappropriate and predatory behavior toward women.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The case we are discussing in this thread is going to trial, and I have not seen where the state has gone out of its way to assault the reputation of DSK


A have a hundred dollars bill in my hand that said there will not be a trial or a plea deal in this case.

Would you like to place a little wager on it Firefly?

As far as not going out of their way you got to be kidding me with all the leak informations from the state side where most it turning out to be untrue on top of it.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 02:57 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Thanks for making my point that you view all men as rapists in waitings only being held back by fear of the law.

I never said anything that idiotic. Actually, I think that's what Spendius was saying. Laughing

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 03:02 pm
An interesting take from a Spaniard, who believes that we Americans signed on to the police state

Quote:
Are the police and justice systems tougher in the U.S. than in France? As far as I know there is no index of police brutality, but regarding the same serious offenses criminal sanctions are harsher in the United States. Ironically, this severity is due to the multicultural nature of American society. In the United States, legislators and judges believe that a society that shares a different cultural heritage can only survive with a certain harmony if the rules of the game, in this case, the law, are severely enforced.

The more diverse the states are, the more important immigration becomes (New York is multiethnic) and the more repressive the police and justice systems are. This severity, which is known by the phrase "zero tolerance," and which was first adopted by New York in the '80s, is an essential prerequisite for order.

Therefore DSK found himself in a world that was totally strange to him, a world that he, as the French aristocrat that he is, did not understand. Those in France, such as the well-known intellectuals who give him their support, with or without reason, usually do not understand how American society works. DSK is not an unequal victim of repression, but the eloquent representation of a civilization that is radically different from France


http://watchingamerica.com/News/106959/dsk-and-the-french-american-misunderstanding/
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 03:02 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I never said that. Actually, I think that's what Spendius was saying.


That what you are indeed saying by comparing a man getting behind a wheel of a car drunk to raping a woman.

Men need to be frighten by posters showing them in handcuffs otherwise they are likely to be rapists.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 03:21 pm
Quote:
Alain Finkielkraut, French philosopher
Le Monde | 14.06.11

DSK: you judge a man, not a symbol

I do not know if Dominique Strauss-Kahn is innocent or guilty of the offenses alleged against him.I do know one thing, and unfortunately this knowledge, part of the evidence is less and less shared: Dominique Strauss-Kahn is not a symbol but a singular person, with a name and a surname.Even those who, impressed by the indictment and the evidence distilled in the press, deny him the presumption of innocence, should give him, it would still be the very least, the presumption of individuality.

Instead, it conceptualizes Strauss-Kahn in arm circumference and length of talk shows, made into a specimen, an emblem, a category, it is drowning in abstraction."Who is" is replaced by what it is or what it is supposed to be: dominant in his works, the old-white-male-libidinous, the club member of the powerful and unstoppable believe that everything is permitted.

His trial is the trial of the West predator, the trial of racism, Islamophobia trial, the trial of sexism, the trial of the persistence of the old regime in democratic Europe, the trial of stolen kisses, ribald jokes and the French conception of the commerce of the sexes, the trial finally all rapists, pedophiles and all all those who stubbornly refuse to share household chores.Two humanities are facing: the one that crushes and that which is crushed.Through the housekeepers in New York, said today the second to the first: "Enough! Dominique Strauss-Kahn has to pay for what we did."

Well no, you did nothing.What he did was for justice to be determined.If one turns the trial of a man on trial of domination, then justice is found moot, the case is heard, the verdict has already fallen and the hearings have no place to be if not as punishment, as public humiliation, as political and judicial lynching as "Shame on you!" ("shame on you").

In The Human Stain (Gallimard, 2004), this novel begins in the middle of dealing Clinton-Monica Lewinsky , Philip Roth says he had dreamed of a giant banner hung from one end to another of the White House as one of these packages to the Dadaists and Christo who proclaimed: "A Human Being lives here" ("Here is still a human being ")...

I want to wrap myself the "luxury home" which saw one that was deemed undesirable by all owners of apartments in Manhattan and remind photographers, correspondents, columnists for, tourists, feminists, the deconstructionists of all countries, professionals of laughter, the moral left and right too happy to defend in turn, more importantly against the socialist cause of the oppressed, that there is still a human being.

One of flesh and blood.While the attack at the Sofitel (if proven) is incomparably worse than what happened in the Oval Office between President and his intern.But a human being is a human being.If there is one lesson of the XX th century, we must at all costs, we braced for this tautology.And this also applies to the complainant itself reduced to an abstraction, and disembodied exploited shamelessly by those who profess to be moved by his fate.

Among the trials arising from the Strauss-Kahn affair, there is that of omerta, the law of silence, complacency with the French press would have shown towards the political class.On behalf of the sacred separation between private life and public life, it would have covered up wrongdoing, including that of the particularly heavy dredger that was the former director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Some journalists are so their mea culpa , rubbing his hands.They promise to make the people around the depravity of its agents instead of booking that knowledge to a privileged few.They undertake to excavate the lives, listening to conversations, to report transgressions and not to meet only one secret: that of their sources.The democratic right of citizens to know and the need to moralize public life impose further increase their power.What a deal!

In The Unbearable Lightness of Being and Testaments Betrayed (Gallimard, 1984 and 2000 respectively), Milan Kundera tells a story very informative.Wanting to discredit two great personalities of the "Prague Spring", the novelist Jan Prochazka and Prof. Vaclav Cerny , police released their conversations on the radio soap opera.

"On behalf of the police action was a bold and unprecedented. And, surprisingly: it has almost succeeded, at the time, Prochazka was discredited: because in private they say anything, we talk bad friends, they say bad words, it is not serious, it tells jokes in bad taste, we repeat, is amused by his interlocutor by shocking enormities, it was heretical ideas that n ' admit it publicly, and so on. (...) . It is only gradually (but with an even greater rage) that people realized that the real scandal were not the words of daring but Prochazka rape of his life, they realized (for shock) that the private and the public are essentially two different worlds and that respect for this difference is the sine qua non for a man to live in free man, the curtain that separates the two worlds is untouchable and that the curtain pullers are criminals. "

This word is anti-totalitarian she heard?Or the case will complete Strauss-Kahn does convince us that pulling the curtain is not criminal but beneficial when it is the work of citizen journalists and not police?

Alain Finkielkraut, philosopher


http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2011/06/14/dsk-on-juge-un-homme-pas-un-symbole_1535992_3232.html

Translated by Google
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 03:30 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Ah, so osso should have kept silent, covered-up her shame, or whatever you think should compel a woman to keep such a secret, about having been vulnerable to an assault by a predator. And why should she do this? Why should she not speak out about a criminal violation committed on her body?


There you go again. I never said what osso should or shouldn't have done. I never said anything about her keeping it a secret. Some women do keep such things secret. In either case there are reasons for the choice to reveal it or otherwise. The woman who chooses to hide it has her reasons and they are as valid to her as those of a woman who chooses otherwise. So what are the reasons for each choice? What are the reasons for any choice if not a calculation of advantage?

And whence her vulnerability? It is self-evidently arranged socially because others do not arrange such a vulnerability. And you're in favour of the arrangements.

And I never said that there is any shame either. Quite the contrary in fact. And how can I answer any questions relating to the event without knowing the circumstances? All we have is that osso said she had been raped. Professor Greer says you're all being raped time and time again.

Quote:
Woman cause their own rapes...the temptations they provide explain the rape.


Yes--to an extent. Everybody knows it too. Their demand to mix in equally with men and wear fetching kit and sport themselves on barstools and clip-clopping down sidewalks late at night when they ought to be safely tucked up in bed waggling their hinderquarters. Yes--to an extent. Which doesn't mean osso did any of that of course.

It's pub time.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 05:06 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Then you apparently have the insight of a fruit-fly.


Listen ff--I know everything there is to know about women. I imagine that a male fruit fly knows everything there is to know about a female fruit fly.

I have, metaphorically, sat at the feet, in rapt attention, of the world's leading experts in the subject. Most of them are so well known that their names will not be forgotten until the sun blows up. Like Homer--

Quote:
"`So far so good,` said she, when I had ended my story, `and now pay attention to what I am about to tell you--heaven itself, indeed, will recall it to your recollection. First you will come to the Sirens who enchant all who come near them. If any one unwarily draws in too close and hears the singing of the Sirens, his wife and children will never welcome him home again, for they sit in a green field and warble him to death with the sweetness of their song. There is a great heap of dead men`s bones lying all around, with the flesh still rotting off them. Therefore pass these Sirens by, and stop your men`s ears with wax that none of them may hear; but if you like you can listen yourself, for you may get the men to bind you as you stand upright on a cross piece half way up the mast, and they must lash the rope`s ends to the mast itself, that you may have the pleasure of listening. If you beg and pray the men to unloose you, then they must bind you faster.


If only I had had the sense to listen to that. I could have been a champion.
 

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