Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

@spendius,

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They control what is assumed a natural force in themselves by fear of the law. Which is neorotic. Neurotic cannot be defined by its symptoms but only by its causes. The artificial restraint of natural impulses as Freud explained. A cause of serious illness.

I think you misunderstand Freud. He did not say that that the restraint of impulses, such as sex and aggression, created illness, but rather that such instincts should be sublimated, or channeled, and expressed in socially acceptable ways instead of being merely repressed. Freud wasn't against laws to control impulsive behaviors, and he certainly didn't suggest that people act out their impulses. Laws are needed when individual attempts at control are inadequate.

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The implication of this case cannot but be a perceived danger to women coming from the bestiality of men. The legal measures taken to control this natural force are such, as this case is proving, that there is an implied assumption that it is only fear of the law which prevents sexual assualts from being endemic.

I see no legitimate generalization from this case to "the bestiality of men"--no one is implying that all men are beasts, or that DSK, in any way, represents all men in their conduct toward women.
Fear of the law prevents many crimes, of all types, from occurring. Without burglary and trespassing laws, anyone would be free to wander into your home and leave with your property without your consent, people would regularly lie and cheat on their tax returns, and constantly renege on contractual obligations. Laws help to insure some standard of acceptable societal behavior, and social cohesion, by having a deterrent effect on behaviors that society views as undesirable.

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So the hyperbole being brought to bear on this high profile case is bound to be creating anxiety in women.

I don't feel or sense any anxiety in women as a result of this case. Because DSK is charged with assaulting a hotel maid does not make women in general feel less safe. What this case appears to have triggered, particularly in France, is a good deal of anger, coming especially from women, mainly because of the blatantly sexist remarks that DSK's friends in the political elite and the intelligentsia initially made in his defense. And there was some anger about DSK's past inappropriate actions having been brushed aside or simply dismissed as part of his "womanizing". But anxiety? From no one I've heard except other hotel maids, who might have some legitimate concerns about their occupational safety, and some of whom now have panic buttons thanks to DSK.

Women are constantly made aware of factors that might affect their safety and security, and, if concerned, they alter their behavior accordingly or take defensive precautions, but these things tend to be situational (i.e. don't walk alone in dark deserted areas), but most women are not regarding all men with suspicion or fear because most women don't expect that most men will act in an inappropriate or untoward manner, because most men don't do such things. Whatever anxiety might stem from well publicized sexual assault crimes might help to sell pepper spray and mace and increase the enrollment in self defense classes, but it doesn't generally affect how women view all men.

But, can you imagine the brouhaha if the hotel maid had had mace in her pocket, and had used it to defend herself from DSK's attack? Which one of them do you think would have wound up in jail then? Which one of them would have been out of a job? The maid had to rely on the law--after the fact--because that was her only other option.

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Why is there all this interest in this case when there are many other alleged, and actual, incidents like it.

Mainly because people in his position are not often charged with such crimes, and also because there is a public fascination with the interplay of sex, power, wealth, and the law--it has melodramatic and sensational elements that are absent from the average sexual assault case. And then there are the classical dramatic tragic elements of a great man brought down by his own character flaw--the kind of story that has gripped us since the days of Sophocles and Euripides. These kinds of cases, just like O.J.'s murder trial, become a sort of public theater, and a kind of entertainment, aided and abetted by a media circus--and this one is going to play out on an international stage if, and when, a trial gets underway.

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@engineer,

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You consider working your butt off to get to the US and pursuing a higher paying job as a negative? I think most people would consider that the sign of someone with a lot of drive.

Certainly. And not a negative at all. In fact I have complimented the lady myself a few times for the feat. Precisely because there are a very large number of others who would work their butt off to get into the US. There must be something a bit special about our cleaning woman's skills in this regard.

ff's quote from the NYT skims over the matter fairly adroitly when it says--"It is not clear how the woman gained entrance to the United States"--.

Rather too adroitly imo.

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@hawkeye10,

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if she gets that she is sitting good for the civil suit against the hotel and DSK

I'm not sure that the maid can civilly sue the hotel. NYS Worker's Comp law may prevent her from being able to do that.

And I don't know how you can hold a hotel responsible for the behavior of all of their guests. The responsible party in this situation would be only DSK.

Had the hotel been aware of prior incidents of assault by DSK, and covered them up, they really should have refused to let him stay at the Sofitel, but they might not have wanted to become involved in such a confrontation with him--he was, after all, extremely well connected. But, if those things occurred, I would think such testimony would become part of the prosecution's case against DSK, even though it would make the Sofitel look bad. It could become part of a later Worker's Comp settlement with the maid, but she's up to her eyeballs in a legal ordeal now, and I can't imagine why she'd want to subject herself to a Worker's Comp claim after going through a criminal trial and possible civil action, and we really don't know whether there were prior incidents of assault by DSK at the Sofitel, or any that might have gone beyond groping.

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@firefly,

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I'm sure she cares about money in order to be able to survive and provide for herself and her child. That doesn't mean she thinks in terms of gaining millions from what happened to her, or that money ever crossed her mind when she reported her assault to the police.

Why don't you get up on a little perch ff and tweet, tweet, tweet all day long? It is an evolved instinct for women to be obsessed with money. Only those who have run into the limits of their capacity to get money would think of chirping that sentimental old melody. Our thick and gruesome ugly sportsmen have all got very pretty doxies on their arm not a single one of whom would give them a second glance were they to be production workers. And our brave lads are pestered by what are known as "groupies" who seek to take over from the female in residence.

Think of the shoes ff. The idea that women are not obsessed with money, which Madonna frankly admitted, is preposterous and could only be thought by somebody who has no understanding of the devious little buggers.

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@firefly,

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She might want to see DSK go to prison for what she alleges he did to her.

That's really sweet ff. Fancy suggesting such a thing about a fellow female.

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@spendius,

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Precisely because there are a very large number of others who would work their butt off to get into the US. There must be something a bit special about our cleaning woman's skills in this regard.

ff's quote from the NYT skims over the matter fairly adroitly when it says--"It is not clear how the woman gained entrance to the United States"--

So, in 2002, she was one of 4, 410 Guineans, to gain a visa to come to the U.S., that doesn't sound like she was afforded particularly special treatment. And her previous lawyer, Jeffrey Shapiro, repeatedly said she can remain here because she was granted aslyum--and, given the situation in Guinea, that doesn't seem particularly unusual either. But, the precise reasons she was granted aslyum really are no one else's business--people are entitled to privacy about such matters.

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In the 12 months ending in September 2002, the United States issued 4,410 visas to Guineans, a vast majority for business trips or tourism, officials said...

According to community leaders and immigration lawyers, most Guineans who have received asylum in recent years have sought sanctuary from political persecution in their homeland, though others have petitioned to avoid social practices, like female genital cutting and forced marriage....

The woman is a member of the Fulani ethnic group, Guinea’s largest, which has suffered years of persecution by other ethnic groups. Many Fulani feel that their grievances have never been fully addressed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/nyregion/strauss-kahns-accuser-portrayed-as-quiet-hard-working.html?scp=3&sq=strauss-kahn&st=cse

I really doubt she immigrated to the U.S. in 2002 just so she could be part of a conspiracy to set DSK up in a Sofitel hotel suite 9 years later.

She is in the U.S. legally, and she has legal working papers. She has a good work record at her job. Nothing really seems out of order.

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@firefly,

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but Vance has a definite high stake in at least trying to get a conviction, and he's going to fight hard. very hard, to avoid having the rug pulled out from under him prior to trial.

I should think that Mr Vance might take exception to a remark which has him bothering about having the rug pulled out from under him above the desire to see justice done. Are you suggesting ff that the trial, if there is one, concerns whether Mr Vance will look good or not.

He comes from a distinguished family which puts a very high price on justice being done. Shame on you. Whatever made you so cynical?

This is a star--"Not everyone would opt for the money under those circumstances." There is only one circumstance under consideration. We are not concerned with other circumstances involving other people. Judge Melissa Jackson admonished the prosecutor for mentioning such things.

What changed between the two bail hearings to cause a different outcome?

"What might be worked out" is that DSK fights them to the wire because any deal makes him look guilty as well as demonstrating, if he is guilty, that there's one law for the rich and another for the rest. Which is something you are claiming to abhor. And I am hoping that he will fight them to the last ditch even if the DA does pull out all the stops to save his face.

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@firefly,

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I said that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that this woman is dishonest, or devious. and you replied...

Other than that she is a woman

which really says it all, Hawkeye, in terms of how you feel about women, and apparently your paranoia in that regard prevents you from viewing any woman with anything approaching objectivity.

It is objectivity that hawk is using and my own objective observations confirm his viewpoint. There is no paranoia involved with objective observations.

And you are much too fond of expressions such as "apparently" and "not everyone" ff. They are true hallmarks of deviousness. As are the "mays" and "mights" which disfigure your posts and which render them meaningless.

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@spendius,

I will pass over the strange assertion that all women, and the alleged victim in this instance, are surely addicted to money (presumably more than are all men, or than is the former head of the International Monetary Fund who is accused of raping her).

In any event our law doesn't forbid the love of money by anyone. It does, however, prohibit physical assault and rape - even by prominent persons. The District Attorney is charged with the responsibility for prosecution of crimes that are found to have occurred and those deemed responsible. Juries of the people decide on the matter in proceedings overseen by judges.

I believe that is also the case in the United Kingdom and even France (although in France prosecutors have far more discretion than they do here).

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@firefly,

Freud said that civilisation is a sickness precisely because it involves the inhibition of natural drives. He merely recommended sublimation as the only reasonable way to deal with it in the fix we have got ourselves into.

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I see no legitimate generalization from this case to "the bestiality of men"--no one is implying that all men are beasts, or that DSK, in any way, represents all men in their conduct toward women.
Fear of the law prevents many crimes, of all types, from occurring. Without burglary and trespassing laws, anyone would be free to wander into your home and leave with your property without your consent, people would regularly lie and cheat on their tax returns, and constantly renege on contractual obligations. Laws help to insure some standard of acceptable societal behavior, and social cohesion, by having a deterrent effect on behaviors that society views as undesirable.

You have completely missed the point. It is that the volume and power of the law actually defines which powerful impulses need repressing. They define our actual nature. You recognise the impulses yourself in that paragraph. People even do those things despite the law so if there was no law, i.e. no authority, the flood gates would open as it always does when authority is temporarily abolished.

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@spendius,

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What changed between the two bail hearings to cause a different outcome?

The defense offered to tighten the conditions of bail--they upped the amount to include a $5 million bond in addition to the $1 million cash, they agreed to a 24 hour armed security guard in addition to the electronic monitoring. That satisfied the judge regarding the possibility of flight risk.

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I should think that Mr Vance might take exception to a remark which has him bothering about having the rug pulled out from under him above the desire to see justice done. Are you suggesting ff that the trial, if there is one, concerns whether Mr Vance will look good or not.

No, the D.A. desires to take the case to trial precisely so that justice can be done and a decision can be rendered by a jury.

Pre-trial civil settlements, which hinge on the complainant not testifying at a criminal trial, really are an obstruction of justice--they enable the wealthy to buy the silence of complaining witnesses in order to avoid the possibility of conviction. That does suggest that the rich aren't bound by the same laws that govern everyone else. Cyrus Vance, Jr. does not want to see this case settled with money, he wants it adjudicated at trial, and he wants a conviction because he believes DSK to be guilty.

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@firefly,

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All his penis had to do was touch her lips for this charge to hold up. You have no idea what occurred beyond that. You are assuming, but you really don't know because you haven't heard her account.

Sorry dear but no grown male is going to come by just brushing his penis on the lips of a woman leaving DNA samples as claimed by the DA.

So if there is DNA then we would need a little more actions then a brush of the old lips.

Any heterosexual woman should also be aware of that fact of life.

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@firefly,

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So, in 2002, she was one of 4, 410 Guineans, to gain a visa to come to the U.S., that doesn't sound like she was afforded particularly special treatment.

You have, I hope not deliberately, misread the statement. It said that the "vast majority" (from memory) were for business trips and tourism. Which made it sound as if she was afforded special treatment.

How could you seek to mislead us ff in such a crude manner? You have taken half of the sentence in the report in order to make it mean the opposite of what it said.

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I really doubt she immigrated to the U.S. in 2002 just so she could be part of a conspiracy to set DSK up in a Sofitel hotel suite 9 years later.

So do I. Which doesn't proclude the possibility of her being recruited later to set up DSK. Or of being a sleeper.

I'm not suggesting anything is out of order in her case. It is the applications which look out of order to me. Who is making hay with it all, as you are, and why.

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@georgeob1,

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In any event our law doesn't forbid the love of money by anyone

The law does however made it a minor misdemeanor to charge a rape when no rape had occur.

Cannot punish women more then that as girls will be girls after all.

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@BillRM,

Do you know that no rape occurred? Will you testify at the trial?

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@BillRM,

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Sorry dear but no grown male is going to come by brushing his penis on the lips of a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are completely over-looking the fact that he is charged only with making forced oral/genital contact--any forced contact that causes the penis to touch the mouth. Whether he came or not, or was even inside of her mouth, is irrelevant to the actual charge.

You seem fascinated with the more lurid details and your own thoughts about getting a "blow-job". No doubt you find it all very arousing since you keep bringing it up.

You will only know exactly what went on when you hear the maid's testimony, and what the defense brings out on cross-examination. Until then, why not try to contain your own sexual fantasies about what went on, since they seem to be getting in the way of understading what DSK is actually charged with doing.

For instance, in addition to your misunderstanding the oral sex charge in terms of what he is actually accused of doing, DSK is not charged with rape, nor did the maid allege he raped her. But, you keep talking about rape anyway.

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@spendius,

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It said that the "vast majority" (from memory) were for business trips and tourism. Which made it sound as if she was afforded special treatment.

How could you seek to mislead us ff in such a crude manner?

Oh please, I'm not seeking to mislead anyone. Everyone is free to read the article for themselves in its entirety.

If the "vast majority" of visas were for business trips and tourism it simply means the rest were for other reasons--like possibly work visas, student visas, any other reasons they issue visas--that doesn't mean that these other visas indicate "special treatment", it simply means they are issued for less common reasons.

All this searching for intrigue seems very silly--particularly when you are going back 9 years to try to dig it up.

She's the alleged victim of the crimes. There is no reason, from anything you do know about her, to doubt her motives in reporting her assault. Shouldn't it be DSK's motives you should be wondering about? Isn't he the one legally charged with criminal wrongdoing?

Believe me, if the maid has credibility issues, particularly relating to this case, the defense will unearth them and you will hear about them.

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@georgeob1,

I didn't say "all women" George. I used "women" as a general term to denote the usual woman. I know there are nuns and suchlike.

What crimes has the DA "found to have occurred"? It isn't as if we have an empty bank vault or a dead or broken body in this case.

The 48,000 deaths in the USA in 2004 due to traffic violations seem to be evidence of crimes far more obvious than this one is so far showing. If you can't have 5 years for speeding and traffic light violations (9,600 deaths) because it would be politically unpopular or economically damaging then it isn't principles you are talking about at all. It must be some special fascination with sexual matters relating to feminine dignity where "scars" can be both real and faked.

And there is an institutionalised method for solving that problem which is employed by one of the world's largest religions. Strictly too in some Islamic countries. They segregate women and prevent them from inflaming male lust by parading their sexual characteristics. And flog, maybe hang, those who do assault women.

I don't know but I imagine the sexual assaults in Saudi Arabia are a thousandth of those in the US which means, looked at with a cool head, that the rejection of Islam's rules is causing the sexual assaults in the US. For economic benefit. For money. And no doubt you agree with that. Are a party to it I mean.

The tales I have heard from my father's generation about the state of things in factories during the war when a lot of men were away on military service, and women had to take their place, made my hair stand on end. Some of the male supervisors make DSK's alleged reputation look like he was on a bit of a wobbly vow of chastity. I have heard my mother's friends refer to their primary sexual characteristic as their "ration book".

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@firefly,

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No doubt you find it all very arousing since you keep bringing it up.

Bill is an amateur at that stuff ff compared to some I could mention.

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@firefly,

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If the "vast majority" of visas were for business trips and tourism it simply means the rest were for other reasons--like possibly work visas, student visas, any other reasons they issue visas--that doesn't mean that these other visas indicate "special treatment", it simply means they are issued for less common reasons.

As this is speculation all we can do is bet on it. I'm betting there was some funny stuff. If people were allowed into the US because they alleged they were being persecuted in their home countries it wouldn't be an immigration problem. It would be a problem of finding a space to sit down.

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Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

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