Working Moms and Dads - what is an acceptable expectation for time away from the job...

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I just started working full time again a year ago. I work from 7:30AM to 4:30PM and have had to take long lunches and leave early for various activities to be with the kids on several occasions.

Of course when they are sick I take sick time. But when it comes to the extracurricular activities such as baseball, art classes, piano etc...what is a good parameter for me to use that is acceptable? I don't want to take advantage - but I want my kids to be able to continue doing what they have been accustomed to.

The basic problem I have is - how much is too much? If I am doing my job and getting it accomplished in a timely manner should I expect to be able to take the time I want to care for my kids when they need to be shuttled to their next activity? I know much of this is based on my company's guidelines - but in looking, I don't see any there.

Some of my girlfriends here and I have set up a focus group and are going to brainstorm. We have our vice president in on it and one of our in house counselors. But I thought it would be good to read some outside discussion from a variety of folks so I can get as many ideas as possible.

What is a fair expectation for me to have?

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@mismi,

First, it's great that the company execs are participating in your focus group. I'd ask why the focus group was set up? Is someone complaining? Does the company feel that it's time to establish some standards? What's driving this endeavor?

I think it's great that you've had the flexibility to adjust your hours to attend and tend to your kid's efforts. Many companies are not so obliging. The one statement that caused me to wince a bit was when you stated, "but I want my kids to be able to continue doing what they've become accustomed to." That may be a big want when it comes to your employer (and possibly your peers if they think they get caught holding the bag).

Mom working full time outside of the home almost always impacts the rest of the family and their expectations on mom's availability.

Is this something that's specific to you in your workplace or does everyone come and go at various hours to drive their kids to their next activity?

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@mismi,

It also depends on how much you have to interact with the other staff during the day. Do you spend you day in meetings? Do others have to cover for you when you're not there? If other people have to adjust their work day to account for your kids activities then they're probably going to grumble. If you work independently and your absence doesn't impact other folks getting their job done then I think you can push for greater flexibility. The problem with that becomes one of treating all staff equally. If they can let you be flexible because your job is independent, but the person at the next desk has to cover from 7:30 - 4:30 without exception then.... more grumbling.

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@mismi,

mismi wrote:

should I expect to be able to take the time I want to care for my kids when they need to be shuttled to their next activity?

no.

There are opportunities for flexible hours at some companies, but I don't think anyone should have an expectation to be given any time within their normal work day to care for their children.

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Flexible hours
work at home options
job sharing

You kids are NOT going to suffer knowing you have a job and have an obligation to be there. That teaches them responsiblity by example.

The real issue is: how can I be effective on the job and still be flexible for at home needs?

Your customers also have to be understanding. Saying that you couldn't get back to them because you had to pick up your kid may have a number or responses, depending on the type of business you work.

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http://www.jstor.org/action/showArticleImage?image=images%2Fpages%2Fdtc.55.tif.gif&doi=10.2307%2F585774

The first page is posted as above here. The full article is available for purchase. The key point is that research shows that companies that are more flexible on the expectations of work time and space have greater staff morale and greater family harmony for their employees.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

mismi wrote:
should I expect to be able to take the time I want to care for my kids when they need to be shuttled to their next activity?

no.

There are opportunities for flexible hours at some companies, but I don't think anyone should have an expectation to be given any time within their normal work day to care for their children.

I agree with ehBeth 100%

JPB used the softer word "grumbling" several times, but that comes across to me as meaning "Well, we're going to sometimes grumble about it, but gee, it's about the kids, so she needs to leave for that ball game."

It's too vague saying "if I get my work done, what does it matter." Do you expect to get paid the same? If you are salaried, you must know the expectation is to make the time up elsewhere. If you can get your job done in less hours, then you need more to do. If you're hourly you don't get paid. If you have to leave regularly, you go part time or change your hours officially, and work the new schedule.

I really don't get why it's ok because it's about children. If I said to my employer, "I need to leave early every Tuesday and Thursday during the summer, because my husband is on a bowling league that starts at 3pm, and I need to be there to show support, they'd look at me like I was crazy.

As far as the grumblers, I'll be honest and tell you that I would super resent the fact that you leave early, purely based on the fact you chose to have children, and I did not. That falls into the same catagory as people who smoke, and get to work an hour less a day because they take smoke breaks every 2 hours. I guess that means that every 2 hours I should get to walk out and stand in the middle of the parking lot, staring at the sky for 10 minutes doing nothing. Yeah, I'm posting this at work, but while I'm doing it I am actually getting something else done. I type in the moments I'd be waiting for something to finish.
When my husband as been in an out of the hospital, I would take an entire day, like the day of a surgury or something, but other than that, he just had to wait until I got off work to visit him.

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@JPB,

Yeahhhhh...I knew the "what they are accustomed to" is an issue - I understand that is my desire and not the company's problem. I am fortunate to work in a very family friendly environment. It is flexible to an extent.

That is a good point JPB - does my time away burden another employee? In my case no. But I have access to my work 24 - 7 if I want. (I do not Wink

)

I have had several discussions with other moms here and with young women who are wanting to start their families soon. We are without a good answer when it comes to what is actually expected. I understand too that this varies greatly from company to company.

The issues we are discussing go from after school child care and what is affordable -
In my area, it costs me $60 per child per week to get them in after school child care. I can't swing that. Thankfully I have a neighbor who is happy to make a little extra money for an hour a day after school. But what if I didn't have that, what would I do? What could I reasonably expect from the company? Do I just have to find another job that would accomodate the cost or the time to be home with them? Do I go pick them up and bring them back to work with me?

We are also exploring child care during the summer ( in my area it is around $200 - $250 per child per week) - it would take my whole paycheck to place my children somewhere - actually - my paycheck wouldn't even cover that.

Other things are just basically how to stay organized and on top of things while working. Ideas for cutting corners in shopping - one such thing is sharing shopping lists and menus. I save mine and rotate them. We will place them on our work intranet. We are also having the coupon classes to get the most bang for your buck without the time invested like some of the radical coupon fanatics. A more moderate approach.

Since companies cannot give raises during these hard economic times, if there are things that can take the place of a raise that would help with money - such as - working from home to save the gas money - or some other kind of perk. This has a two-fold benefit. Kids coming home can get their homework done while I am finishing up my work day, and it saves gas. This is huge. Of course not every company has this capability. So - what else can be considered as a help?

I am open to all opinions...mainly because there are so many different folks that work here- all ages with varying ages for the children. I understand that my expectations and the company's expectations are two different things. I just want an idea of what is reasonable for me to expect. And good ways to approach the VP about ideas that will help with child care and such.

Thanks JPB

I had the first meeting - it went well. Several ideas were accepted as being very likely and that they will be considered. We are still trying to pare it down and make it more focused as to the crux of the need.

Looking forward to using this discusstion to narrow the field.

1 Reply

@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

JPB used the softer word "grumbling" several times, but that comes across to me as meaning "Well, we're going to sometimes grumble about it, but gee, it's about the kids, so she needs to leave for that ball game."

No, that's not what I meant at all. I think the grumblers are fully justified in their grumbling. As an employer I don't want my employees spending their time grumbling, whether they're grumbling about not being able to see the spring concert at school or grumbling about the fact that someone left early to drive jr to baseball. That's why I think it's great that the company is willing to participate in a focus group to come to a fair and reasonable solution to what (I assume) is causing a disruption at work. There's got to be a reason that a focus group was formed. That it's because there is grumbling is an assumption on my part.

These things tend to take on a life of their own - lower employee morale - that can be resolved by some creative and cooperative discussions. They don't always relate to kids, although this one clearly does. I once worked in a lab setting where we could only have four staff members on planned leave on any given day. We were closed on major holidays, but we had a few people who signed up for PTO around every holiday, meaning that those days closed out to everyone else. Our management practiced a first come, first serve PTO sign-up policy and a few folks booked all of the days around holidays years in advance. We'd hire a new person and say, "Hey, you don't have to work holidays here and, if you're lucky, you'll get the Friday after Thanksgiving or the day after Christmas off before you retire." It wasn't fair and it caused a lot of grumbling. We set up a focus group and came up with a creative and fair plan that closed out the sign-up more than two years in advance and limited any one person to signing up for two days at Christmas/New Years and two more at 4th of July/Thanksgiving. The other holidays were less problematic, but we included then in the plan too. Everyone got to sign up for one Friday before a Monday holiday if they chose. Open slots went by lottery to those who wanted them. What was interesting in this case is that it wasn't the folks who had kids who were the biggest abusers. It was the folks whose parents lived out-of-state and they wanted to travel home for every major holiday. It took some creative efforts and the input of those who wanted all the days, those who wanted some days, those who would have to manage it, and those who just wanted everyone to stop grumbling but we came up with a workable solution.

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@chai2,

There is no one expecting to leave early and not make it up. I work later or I come in earlier on other days to make the time up. Life happens. All I am trying to do is find a way to take care of my children in an affordable manner - and to keep doing what they enjoy. We don't do much of anything outside of baseball - they like to play baseball - I am not saying it is their right and a down right necessity for me to be able to let them play. I will either quit my job and find something that works better, or if that is not a possibility, I would have to make them stop playing baseball.

I am just trying to find new avenues to continue for their sake. I will be sad if they can't keep it up -but I will pull up my big girl panties and deal with it.

I am not asking for anything special just because I have kids. I am looking for flexibility because I have kids. If that is not available then I find a way to deal with it - one way or another.

Is it not acceptable at all for me to look for ways to make it work? Should I just shut down all of their activities? Is it unfair to ask a company to let me use my lunch time later to be able to take them to ball practice? Or to come in earlier one day so I can leave earlier that afternoon? That is exactly what I need to know - is that unfair to you?

I agree with JPB if my leaving is putting an unfair burden to my co-workers, then it would not be acceptable. As long as it applied to others when they needed to leave early - then it would be okay? If I had a meeting or a deadline at the time of a baseball event - it would not be a consideration...but I have no problem with someone leaving early to go do something they want to do, whether they have kids or not...as long as they are pulling their weight and working their time and not leaving someone else holding the bag.

And then there is the concern of "if we let this person do this, then everyone will want to do it and where do we draw the line"...I see that as well. It may not be possible... but I wonder if there are some simple guidelines to use to make flexibility a possibility for all.

I do appreciate your view point Chai. It is exactly what I was looking for. I have a tendency to be a bit obtuse when it comes to my children. Smile

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@mismi,

I think you are using the word "expectation" in a context that isn't exactly the word you want. In the dog-eat-dog world of today's employment situation it's hard to "expect" anything beyond fair wages and a safe work environment. Many full time salaried positions now require a 50 hour week even though the salary is based on 40. Getting to stay home with sick kids is a luxury that many folks don't have, to say nothing of leaving for concerts and games or to "expect" the company to help with after school and child care expenses. If the company values its employees and wants to keep them then they'll work with you to meet your needs, but it isn't really an expectation for them to do so.

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@chai2,

Quote:

I guess that means that every 2 hours I should get to walk out and stand in the middle of the parking lot, staring at the sky for 10 minutes doing nothing.

Of course it does. And, if it doesn't then you have cause to take it up with those who would give you **** if you did just that.

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@mismi,

mismi wrote:

Is it unfair to ask a company to let me use my lunch time later to be able to take them to ball practice? Or to come in earlier one day so I can leave earlier that afternoon? That is exactly what I need to know - is that unfair to you?

variations of these two situations have come up at my last couple of workplaces (same industry you're in)

they were determined to be no-goes. Particularly working through lunch to leave earlier. That is a great one for getting hackles up. The party line seems to be "if you want to work through lunch, that's fine. You still have to work your regular hours".

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@JPB,

I worked at a company about 15 years ago where people signed in and out every time they left the office. Smoke breaks/coffee breaks/lunch. The upside for non-smokers like me is that I ended up with extra vacation days about every six weeks because I'd accumulated so many extra minutes.

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@JPB,

You are right then - my expectations are WAY too high. Yikes - being out of a work environment for as long as I have - I am sure I have much to learn - and I suppose I should be thankful for the flexibility that is shown here. It appears that I am given much more than many folks have. I have certainly always been grateful - love my job. Love the people...

This is good stuff though. I am afraid many of us are stay at home moms who have been thrust back into the harsh world because of the economy. We don't know what to expect to be honest with you. Smile

Which is why I posted here...knew I would get the nekkid truth.

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@ehBeth,

How come Beth? Was it because it couldn't accomodate everyone? Or was it a fear of people taking advantage? I can see that - because someone always will.

Did they give a reason why they opted no?

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@mismi,

mismi wrote:

There is no one expecting to leave early and not make it up. I work later or I come in earlier on other days to make the time up. Life happens. All I am trying to do is find a way to take care of my children in an affordable manner - and to keep doing what they enjoy. We don't do much of anything outside of baseball - they like to play baseball - I am not saying it is their right and a down right necessity for me to be able to let them play. I will either quit my job and find something that works better, or if that is not a possibility, I would have to make them stop playing baseball.

I am just trying to find new avenues to continue for their sake. I will be sad if they can't keep it up -but I will pull up my big girl panties and deal with it.

I am not asking for anything special just because I have kids. I am looking for flexibility because I have kids. If that is not available then I find a way to deal with it - one way or another.

Is it not acceptable at all for me to look for ways to make it work? Should I just shut down all of their activities? Is it unfair to ask a company to let me use my lunch time later to be able to take them to ball practice? Or to come in earlier one day so I can leave earlier that afternoon? That is exactly what I need to know - is that unfair to you?

I agree with JPB if my leaving is putting an unfair burden to my co-workers, then it would not be acceptable. As long as it applied to others when they needed to leave early - then it would be okay? If I had a meeting or a deadline at the time of a baseball event - it would not be a consideration...but I have no problem with someone leaving early to go do something they want to do, whether they have kids or not...as long as they are pulling their weight and working their time and not leaving someone else holding the bag.

And then there is the concern of "if we let this person do this, then everyone will want to do it and where do we draw the line"...I see that as well. It may not be possible... but I wonder if there are some simple guidelines to use to make flexibility a possibility for all.

I do appreciate your view point Chai. It is exactly what I was looking for. I have a tendency to be a bit obtuse when it comes to my children.

You did not mention that you were going to be coming in earlier, or staying late on other days. That makes all the difference in the world.

My intent was not to be ugly, but to let you know what is going on in some peoples (in particular, non-parents) minds when this subject comes up.
Actually, one of the first things I thought while reading this thread was "Why did she title this thread the way she did? Don't non-parents have any ideas or say so in this?
Your comment at the end, that you tend to become obtuse when it comes to your children. Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The idea that because a child is involved accomodations can be made, and a lack of understanding/empathy of what others who are not in your position think and feel.
Of course it's acceptable to look for ways to make things work. But, don't expect every single person to feel that this is as important an issue as you think it is.

ok, to put it straight out, putting it on equal terms be you a parent, non-parent, or any other person in the world....We ALL have **** we want to do/have to do besides our work. The vast majority of people work the bulk of it around their work obligations. Sometimes we can't and we take time off of work. We make it up somehow, or we don't and live with the consequences of less money.
This isn't about the fact that you happen to have kids and need time off, it's about the fact that you have **** you need or want to do, and have to work that around your job.
I'm not sure why a committee has to be formed, and a lawyer involved. It's pretty cut and dry. You take time off, you make it in a way acceptable to your employee, or you just take the cut in pay.

The fact it's about a kid doesn't play into it.

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@chai2,

Okay - that's good. And I like the way this is moving because I want to have it fully thought through before I make an ass of myself. I am fairly used to it - but I try to avoid it if I can.

I like the fact that it has nothing to do with the kids - because ultimately you are right - I was thinking solely from my own perspective - in widening it I am serving the whole rather than just the part.

I can see I was trying to use my kiddies to finagle my own way here. dammit. That is why I included them in my title Chai - I want my cake and to eat it too.

BUT...

There are still issues that working parents have to deal with that people who don't have children don't have to. Child care - back to that -

What are some options for after care that are less expensive than what is offered in after school care programs? What about summers? Last summer I had friends and family keeping them because I didn't get them signed up for things in time...now I am looking at the costs and realize there is no sense in my working since everything I make and then some will have to go toward keeping them somewhere. My only option is to leave this job and find something that will let me stay home again in the summers. Not sure about that. Will have to ask about this - I am not the only one experiencing these issues - which is why the focus group has been set up.

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@mismi,

Can you do your job from home, or some of it?

1 Reply

I've been reading along, was considering my response when JPB and ehBeth made good posts.

I thought JPB's post about "expectations" was especially good.

I have a few different perspectives on this. One is as an employer, one is as someone who did job training, and one is as a mom.

As the first two, my advice is basically OMG woman be careful! Laughing

Really dangerous territory, especially if you're seen as the ringleader. The vice president being involved might be good, I can't quite tell. What is the general response so far?

From that perspective (really all I guess), I think the decision to go back to work should include the cost of childcare. If the salary does not adequately cover the cost of child care, don't take the job.

Now, big-picture wise, I think there should be more allowance for parents to both work and have children. (All parents, not just moms.) It's too difficult right now to find a balance. Other countries do, it can be done. But right now if a woman (especially but not only) is in a demanding career, her choices are still pretty stark. She can have a child -- and not see him or her that much as she puts in the hours required of the childless. She can have a child and take a break from work -- and severely impact her chances of progressing along her career path. She can wait to have a child until she's reached the pinnacle of her profession -- and maybe no longer be fertile. Or she can just not have a child at all (hopefully because she never wanted to in the first place, not because her choices were between having a child or advancing in her career).

Then there are all kinds of other permutations of the difficulties of balancing work and parenting.

I do think that American companies need to improve this situation.

If your company is willing to work on this, good for them. But it has to be sensitive to people who don't have children, and I do think you need to be very clear to the company that you have no particular expectations, just exploring possibilities, and if nothing works out, oh well, you'll deal.

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