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The Communist Origin of the Modern Conservative Movement VI

 
 
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Oct, 2019 08:22 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
“A right to bear arms” does not place any restrictions on government. Rights were never intended to place restrictions on government only state the right of an individual.

The exact purpose of individual rights is to restrict the govt from infringing on those rights. You completely misunderstand the purpose of rights.

Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Oct, 2019 09:12 pm
@oralloy,
To believe that you have a right to weapons of war derived from 2,000 years ago is nonsense. If you believe that your right to weapons of war comes from English common law than you would be bound my the much more severe restriction on guns in England today. You can’t claim one without the other. Even England has much more severe gun restrictions than America and law is derived from English Common Law. We fought the revolutionary war to free us from England and their laws.
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The Bill of Rights does not forbid the government from anything it simply spells out the right of individuals. It can’t do both.
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The right to live is the highest of all freedoms without it you can’t enjoy any of the other freedoms.
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Guns kill 40,000 people a year those people can no longer enjoy any freedoms.
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The second amendment only grants the freedom to bear arms, it forbids nothing. Just as you can not drive backwards and forwards at the same time, you can’t grant a right and take the freedom of the government to protect the population with the second amendment.
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You have “a right to bear arms” it grants a right. You never had a right to an ak-47.
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The second amendment condition is met in full as long as you have any arm to bear.
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As long as you have an arm to bear the intent of the second amendment is met.
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The second amendment is extremely clear when it gives you “a right to bear arms.” The second amendment does not place limits on the power of government to control arms.
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Activist judges try to do just as you are doing add things that are not in the writing.
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Forty thousand deaths a year is one of the most compelling government interests today.
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No militia is going to stop an invading Russian army or an atomic war anymore than an ant could stop us from stepping on it. There is no one else likely to invade us.
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The semi-automatics assault weapons are the subject of the 1994 assault weapon ban. It is those weapons that we have tried to keep out of the hands of mass murderers for the last quarter century. That is what the whole discussion has been about not the automatic variation.
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They created the first assault weapon in Germany in 1944 and others used that as a starting point to make faster and more deadly improvements.
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You have to realize that 78% of American don’t own a gun now and many gun owners also believe assault weapons should be banned. Some gun owners actually cut their own assault weapons up. As long as assault weapons are available at the corner gun store the massacre are going to be more frequent and kill more people. There is no doubt something is going to be done it is just a question of how more will have to die. Ninety three percent of America want something done with guns and this is a super majority and they will prevail in the end. There is an election next year and the senators and congressmen who have lined their pockets with the NRA’s blood money won’t be back. Many of the politicians stained with the NRA’s blood money were beat in the last election. All these bills are blocked by crooked politicians on the NRA’s payroll once they are gone things will change so fast your head will spin. As it is now one crooked politician can block a gun control bill from ever being voted on.
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Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Oct, 2019 10:01 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
To believe that you have a right to weapons of war derived from 2,000 years ago is nonsense.

2000 years ago? You are taking this BS propaganda a little to far, nothing else in the paragraph is worth replying to.

Quote:
The Bill of Rights does not forbid the government from anything it simply spells out the right of individuals. It can’t do both.

Yes, it does exactly both. It spells out the natural rights of people and at the same time puts limits on the govt. The only purpose of the govt in relation to our rights it upholding those rights, not infringing on them. You once again utterly fail to understand the purpose of Rights.

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The right to live is the highest of all freedoms without it you can’t enjoy any of the other freedoms.

Yet you deny that right to babies and praise abortion.

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Guns kill 40,000 people a year those people can no longer enjoy any freedoms.

Guns don't kill anyone, people either kill themselves, which is were over 60% of your 40k number comes from, or they are killed by other people. inanimate objects do not act on their own or work on their own.

Quote:
The second amendment only grants the freedom to bear arms, it forbids nothing. Just as you can not drive backwards and forwards at the same time, you can’t grant a right and take the freedom of the government to protect the population with the second amendment.

The primary purpose of the govt is to protect our Rights. The 2nd Amendment is the only Amendment that says "Shall not be infringed." Funny how you always forget about that part of the it.

Quote:
You have “a right to bear arms” it grants a right. You never had a right to an ak-47.

How many times do you need to be told, the Constitution doesn't grant rights, what can be granted can be taken and that is the opposite of a right. You see Rights as "maybe's" depending on who is in charge or which group seems to hold the majority. That isn't how rights work, Rights are guaranteed. Shall not be infringed means we can indeed have an Ak-47.

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The second amendment condition is met in full as long as you have any arm to bear.

Once again, that isn't how Rights work. Shall not be infringed is very important to the Amendment, it's the only Amendment that says it shouldn't be restricted.

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The second amendment is extremely clear when it gives you “a right to bear arms.”

That's exactly what the Bill of Rights did, it placed restrictions on the govt. It's purpose is to protest the Rights spelled out in the Constitution. Any govt that seeks to restrict those rights is betraying their oaths to protect the Constitution.

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The second amendment does not place limits on the power of government to control arms.

Shall not be infringed does exactly that.

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Activist judges try to do just as you are doing add things that are not in the writing.

Wrong again. It was activist judges who thought limits on the 2nd Amendment were a good thing. They left the power with the govt which the founders didn't trust, that's why we have a 2nd Amendment in the first place. The 2nd protects all the other Amendments.

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Forty thousand deaths a year is one of the most compelling government interests today.

No it isn't. A vast majority of those deaths were suicide, less then 40% were actual murders, about 14k.
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According to the CDC, in 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542).

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/fbi-more-people-killed-with-knives-hammers-clubs-and-even-feet-than-rifles-in-2018/

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No militia is going to stop an invading Russian army or an atomic war anymore than an ant could stop us from stepping on it. There is no one else likely to invade us.

You are proving the point that the American public needs access to better weapons. We should be able to fight against our own govt. Besides the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq prove you wrong, they were able to kill plenty of US soldiers with nothing more than AK-47's and IED's. No nukes, no tanks and no air-power.

Quote:
The semi-automatics assault weapons are the subject of the 1994 assault weapon ban. It is those weapons that we have tried to keep out of the hands of mass murderers for the last quarter century. That is what the whole discussion has been about not the automatic variation.

There is no such thing as a semi-auto assault weapon, it was a made up defination used by the anti-gun left to ban the most popular weapon sold in the US. It is also the least used weapon in crimes, 297 people were killed with them, vs over 1500 people who were killed with knifes. Knifes are more deadly in the US than an AR-15.

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They created the first assault weapon in Germany in 1944 and others used that as a starting point to make faster and more deadly improvements.

I'm pretty sure the Thompson Machine gun was invented long before that. You really need to stop making things up.

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You have to realize that 78% of American don’t own a gun now and many gun owners also believe assault weapons should be banned.

Do you have any proof of this claim. We were talking about this about a year ago, and the actual number of gun owners is much higher. A majority of gun owners don't trust the govt or polling places and will lie about owning a weapon. You actually have zero proof of this claim, like all your claims, no facts, no proof and it's all propaganda.

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Some gun owners actually cut their own assault weapons up.

Good, if they are that dumb, then they shouldn't be gun owners. If they are dumb enough to fall for the media lies, then we don't need them as gun owners.

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As long as assault weapons are available at the corner gun store the massacre are going to be more frequent and kill more people.

Mass shootings with these types of weapons are rare, only 297 people were killed those types of weapons in 2018, see above for the stats. Over 7,000 people were killed with handguns, those are a bigger problem then semi-auto rifles. The only reason you don't like semi-auto rifles is because they are effective against the govt. You lefties want to stripe the US citizen of their right to fight back so you can put forth your Communist dreams.

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There is no doubt something is going to be done it is just a question of how more will have to die.

More people are going to die with a ban in place. We need to make it legal to protect yourself regardless of where you are. People die in "Gun Free Zones".

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Ninety three percent of America want something done with guns and this is a super majority and they will prevail in the end.

Those people have been lied to by the MSM and the anti-gun politicians. When people get the real truth about the gun laws, they no longer think all the laws being asked for are required. They are not educated on how the guns work and the MSM and politicians say enough wrong stuff about guns to fool the average American. Stop the propaganda and you will see those number drop in a big way.

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There is an election next year and the senators and congressmen who have lined their pockets with the NRA’s blood money won’t be back.

There will actually be more pro gun rights politicians elected in 2020, just watch. The only reason those people lost had nothing to do with the NRA, it had everything to do with the lefty liars running on Trump impeachment. Now that the Mueller report has been released, a lot of moderates have realized that the left lied to them. There was no Russian collusion and no one in the Trump campaign was charged with a crime related to Russian Interference.

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All these bills are blocked by crooked politicians on the NRA’s payroll once they are gone things will change so fast your head will spin.

They are blocked because they continue to infringe on the our rights. You are going to be in for a really big surprise when the GOP wins back the House and gets more seats in the Senate and hold onto the Trumps seat.

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As it is now one crooked politician can block a gun control bill from ever being voted on.

Good. You can't win with propaganda and the American people are waking up to the lies of the left.


oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Oct, 2019 10:10 am
@Baldimo,
I haven't had time to get caught up here, but he is paraphrasing me with the 2000 years thing.

The right of a free person to keep and bear arms was created by the early Germanic tribes of the Pre-Roman Iron Age about 2600 years ago.

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes brought the right to England with them when they invaded after the downfall of the Western Roman Empire.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Oct, 2019 10:29 pm
@Baldimo,
We have a politician in town, who ran as the Republican candidate for mayor in last election, he has been a regular at council meetings for over 40 years. His name is Tom McCallister, he would get up in council meetings to tell council what laws meant. The problem was he would pick one sentence out of a paragraph without regard to all the other sentences that modified the meaning of the sentence he picked out. Did I mention he was like you a gun nut and he finally got his chance. He saw a man looking in his garage and him and his brother, a former magistrate, held him at gun point. When the man decided to call the police, Tom tried to blow him away. Tom’s story was the man lunged at him and he shot him. The problem is the man was on the phone with 911 when he was shot and it was all recorded. The man lived but is completely paralyzed and cannot breath without a respirator. I bet Tom wishes he never saw a gun because now he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

The right you have is a right to bear arms, that is the only thing that cannot be abridged. As long as you have a gun to bear that right has not been infringed.
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The second amendment is governed by what is written not what can be imagined. As long as the population had a gun to fight with, they could fight. A military will always out gun the population because it is their business.
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Shall not be infringed only tells you that the right to bear arms, shall not be infringed. But is does not modify the preceding “a right to bear arms” in any way, shape, or form.
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Mass murderers in schools are done with assault weapons, shooting where only one or two people are shot are done with other guns. Sandy Hook, Parkland, Columbine, these were all done with assault weapons. They don’t have drills in schools where one kid shoots another they have them for impending massacres. El Paso was not a gun free zone in fact Texas has more guns than most states. It changed nothing. Dayton was not a gun free zone it was crawling with cops with guns, it changed nothing.
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Simi-automatic assault weapons are assault weapons under the law that case is litigated and over.
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It is when they are killed 59 at a time that causes the problem, or 26 at an elementary school. No doubt that 297 figure was not taken from a year where one single massacre killed 59. The vast majority of gun deaths are not the problem the problem is the massacres with assault weapons.
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No, I did not make it up it is taken from the book “Mass Killers” and an actual case where the mass murderer demonstrated the “typical assault weapon stance.”
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Just as real as all the school children he slaughtered after demonstrating his “typical assault weapon stance.”
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If you put an automatic AR-15 beside a semi-automatic AR-15 99% of the public could not tell the difference because they are both assault weapons.
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It is the basic gun that makes the difference the other features are just options. You could buy one AR-15 with a laser scope and other with a standard scope but that would not make it a different weapon. Ninety-nine of the assault weapons are exactly the same.
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A four-cylinder Mustang operates differently than a Shelby Mustang but they are both still Mustangs.
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“Shall not being infringed” only means that you will have “a right to bear arms.”
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The very statement that you are granted “a right to bear arms” does not restrict the government but it does grant you a right. If there was no second amendment the government could simply decide to take all the guns and leave you with no arms to bear.
The second amendment is the only guarantee that you will have an arm to bear. It grants you something it does not take anything away from government.
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I know that without a specific right granted under the second amendment guns could be banned, completely banned.
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It is massacres that are the problem not mass shootings.
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The gun manufactures got their blood money grubbing politicians to pass a special law a few years ago just for gun manufactures that exempted from being sued. Everybody involved in a mass shooting can be sued except the ones most responsible for the massacre, the gun manufacturers. You can sue the police, the security guard, the school board, the ambulance attendant but not the gun manufacturer. But by your theory the Parkland shooter could sue the gun manufacturer because his gun jammed.
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Current batch is all those assault weapons being marketed today. It is an assault weapon if the law says it is.
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O had made some remarks about hand guards being placed on knives to prevent your hand from sliding down the knife while you were stabbing someone to death. Your hand does not slide down a gun and cut you.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Oct, 2019 11:26 pm
@Baldimo,
Laws are laws and unless the law as written would have a range in it say from 100ft to 500 ft. They would have the discretion to enforce within that range. You must remember that you live under at least four subdivisions of government, federal, state, county and city each are allowed to pass their own laws. There are cases in town where a gas well was sunk within ten feet of residential property. It is runs 24-7 a 2500 ft distance would be no more than reasonable. Everybody would be allowed to voice their opinion when the law was made.
Trump used an executive order to repeal an EPA regulation that kept dangerous and deadly chemicals from within several feet of a public waterway that contained the intake for the city’s water supply.
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If the second amendment is interpreted only as it is written it could not grant more than an arm to bear, period. Anything other than that requires an activist judge.
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The five small words are not ambiguous. Just because the second amendment is silent on regulations does not prohibit regulations. What is left open is subject to government control and the Supreme Court rulings have ruled this way.
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It is been known for some time that aluminum is lighter than steel and many inventions have been lightened but that does not require a patent. However, the improvements on the chambering mechanism needed to be protected with a patent.
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That like saying you would need a patent for using steel in a gun. Aluminum alloys had been used in all kinds of applications from rack and pinion steering to the mag wheels on cars.
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You listed one assault weapon giving it a 750 round per minute rate and had no problem with that. The AR-15 just does better than that.
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Only the trigger mechanism is different but important parts are the same.
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The police are taught to shoot at the center of mass that is where the vital organs are.
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Sixty million people were killed during WWII it sure looks like killing was object. My uncle died in WWII he was not wounded.
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It is 59 people now who died from gun shots in Las Vegas. That is a lot of people any way you look at. I don’t think those with the wooden stock will be legal if they could chamber 900 round a minute rate.
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All semi-automatics don’t work the same way, that is why they got a patent for the AR-15. Not all semi-automatics chamber at a 900 round a minute rate.
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Just another reason to ban assault weapons. It is another weapon of war with the trigger mechanism changed.
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It does not list all 40,000-gun deaths and used all sharp objects instead of just knives. That fact makes it a lie. They did not use all guns but they used all sharp objects.
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There is now more than one mass shooting a day and it is increasing. Four of the top 10 highest body count massacres have taken place in the last 2 years. It is the massacres that need to be stopped.
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That is not fantasy each and every one of those incidents actually took place. I just reported the facts. We already have 40,000-gun deaths a year and it is getting worse.
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If it is possible to convert a semi-automatic to full-automatic it has been done and it has been used in a mass shooting.
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It not lazy at least I read the book that more than you have done. Not everything can be found on the internet. The Internet is basically Cliff Notes to know something you need to read.
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There is enough military hardware on the streets to be a danger. When somebody decides to steal something, they find a way. They could not build aa safe that could not be broken into.
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You can preview a book on line but I don’t know if you can get into the index an than you might find several pages where that particular mass murderer was listed.
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Actually, it does, if you bought a house and when you looked at it, it was furnished but the furniture does not usually come with the house.
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CNN listed that statistic week that 78% of Americans no longer own a gun and just 3% own most of the guns in America.
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When even 2 people are actually victims in two massacres in a year’s time it speaks to how often they happen. It is like winning the lottery twice in a year.
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If there are a 134 internet pages of murders who committed suicide there are at least 30 mass murders among them.
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It is good they learn from their mistakes and the term circular firing squad is far more descriptive than friendly fire.
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Circular firing squad just reports the facts and just the facts.
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That would be better than an electronic simulation at least the bad guys shoot back.
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No, the majority of killers are men. One of the former FBI profilers hosts the Deadly Women which spot lights women killers. One thing that is common is that when women kill, they use their husband’s gun on him.
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It nice to be aware of where the bullets are going to go but in a stress full situation it is easy to forget.
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Those who are going to commit gun crimes must have a gun, NRA members own guns and are subject to commit gun crimes.
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The mass murderer who holds record for mass murder in America was an NRA member.
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Timothy McVeigh was an NRA member and mass murder who killed a 168 people. So, the NRA holds the record for a member with the most mass murders.
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Timothy McVeigh was trained by the NRA that the way to solve a problem is violence.
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A gun is an instrument of violence when you need a gun it will draw violence toward you.
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The NRA new frontier is Russian and having the Russian spy question Trump at one of the NRA meetings was set up. The Russian spy was sent back to Russia today but Russian spies in the NRA will be the rule not the exception.
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It shows that the biggest mass murder in America was done by an NRA member.
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0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Oct, 2019 10:50 pm
@oralloy,
If the founding fathers had intended to grant a right to bear a specific weapon or a specific group of weapons, they would be listed in second amendment, they are not. The right is to bear an arm and this in no way precludes the government in controlling dangerous and deadly weapons.
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If you only have “a right to bear arms” that is all you have and no more.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have seen some of the strangest court decisions. One man was pestering his wife for sex and she shoved him away. The man went to a local magistrate who ruled that the shove amounted to domestic violence and threw the woman out of her own house for a week. There have been some really strange court decisions pertaining to guns, one law in a small town made gun ownership mandatory. There is nothing in the second amendment that makes gun ownership mandatory. Many of the court decisions concerning guns do not strictly confine themselves to the second amendment as written.
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The writing of the second amendment is perfectly clear. If you are armed with a musket or an AK-47 when you are up against a tank it would not matter. If there ever is an invasion it won’t be a repeat of the Revolutionary War.
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The second amendments specifies only a right to bear an arm and nothing more.
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I was at the emergency room with my mom after she had fallen and we were put in a small waiting room with a woman and her daughter. I asked the child about the active shooter drills at her school. They are taught to hide or runaway when a mass murderer shows up at their school not much of a chance when a mass murderer has an assault weapon. Tell the 20 dead first graders at Sandy Hook they were not in danger or those at Parkland or Columbine.
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You have to market a semi-automatic AR-15 as an assault weapon because that is what it is.
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The firing mechanism is only an option just as different types of scopes are options. You would not say an AR-15 had to have a laser scope to be an assault weapon.
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The ability to fire automatically only requires changing 1% of the parts. That is simply an option.
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What law did you get your definition of an assault weapon from? It seems that most copied that 1940s assault weapon, they look similar built for the purpose of massacring large numbers of people.
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The real assault weapon problem is those on the streets and they have not been regulated since 2004.
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Did you just make that definition of assault weapons up? Assault weapons seems to be a name made up by the designer of a 1940s weapon the later models are copies of the original and entitled to that name.
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If an unpracticed hand can fire at 130 rounds per minute someone that practiced could easily get to 300. We know the assault weapons is capable of much more so the only limit is your finger. Set your stop watch and see how many times you can pull the trigger in a minute.
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The Pulse night club mass murderer killed 49 that seems like a lot. In fact, the Pulse Night Club mass murder was only surpassed by the Las Vegas mass murder who had an arsenal and a much large crowd to shoot at who had no cover.
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That is not the stance a mass murderer used he is sweeping from side to side and doing that with a gun at the shoulder would be awkward.
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When you have hundreds of rounds you do not need to aim. You can watch them fall down as they are hit.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You can look at the original assault weapon designed in 40s and tell which guns are assault weapons.
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You may have an opportunity one day to meet a mass murderer one day, you may go to Wal Mart or a rock concert. When the shooting starts just ask him if that is an assault weapon he is using?
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You will have to ask that bartender that the mass murderer showed what the typical assault weapon stance as the mass murderer demonstrated it for him.
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Those assault weapons are far from being an ordinary hunting rifle that is like saying a VW is the same as Indianapolis race car.
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The law is the law and one of the functions of law is to define the terms and those terms have been defined.
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Some one must define the terms in a law and that is the responsibility of legislatures.
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I suspect the gun manufacturers made your BS definition after assault weapons were first banned. This is elephant here but that one over there is not an elephant it just looks like the other one. Actually, the other one runs faster.
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The assault weapons are identical except the one has an optional trigger.
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The Constitution says that “you have a right to bear arms” and that is all.
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If you believe that English common law gives you that right go to England and see if you have a Constitutional right to bear arms. You right is granted by the constitution.
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The government gave you the right to bear arms but did not give up the government’s responsibility to regulate arms.
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Legal assault weapons are the ones on the street now.
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The original statement was you have “a right to bear arms” that is all that can’t be infringed and as long as you have an arm that has not been infringed.
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When you believe the second amendment gives you the right to weapons of war you are reading words that are not there.
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We make are own laws in America we did not want to live under the laws of the old country.
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That is the real definition and in our society that is how definitions are arrived at. Why do you think they passed an assault weapon ban?
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Ninety three percent of Americans want something done with the gun manufacturers. When that many people want something done it will get done. The NRA is running out of blood money to buy politicians.
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That is the politician’s responsibility to make the definitions.
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School massacres almost always involve assault weapons.
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Fear is a survival skill that helps you stay alive.
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By your definition if an automatic firing switch is set to single round then it is not an assault weapon.
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So, the legislatures can set the definition of terms for everything but assault weapons.
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That number is totally useless when they use the actual police reports and there is a solid number that will tell us something.
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It shows no such thing the only thing it shows is someone imagination. When the suicides, murders, accidental shootings and 40,000-gun deaths are taken into account guns don’t benefit to society.
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You can bear an arm but you are not entitled to keep weapons of war.
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You can keep an arm but not any arm.
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It grants you a right it does not forbid the government from doing anything.
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The word “keep” does not allow you to keep weapons of war.
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The only right that cannot be infringed is the “right to bear arms.” That in no way restricts the government responsibility to control arms.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Oct, 2019 09:50 pm
@oralloy,
The founding fathers intended to grant “a right to bear arms” with the second amendment not create a standing army.
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Foreign laws are not binding on US citizens. Foreign law was one reason for the American Revolution we would than hardly turn around and claim that we are subject to those same laws we revolted against.
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The second amendment does not specify and type of weapon. When second amendment says “a right to bear arms” it does not say military grade arms.
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The MG-42 is a heavy, clumsy, machine gun not an assault weapon.
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The M-16 switch also lets it fire single shots is it no longer an assault weapon in this mode?
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Those rounds have shown quite effective on killing people when one man can massacres 59 people in ten minutes that is effective.
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When assault weapons kill 50 people in a few minutes it needs to be banned.
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The point was to show more people are murdered by knives than guns and that is a lie far more people are killed with guns in America. Knives were listed along with other sharp object, screw drivers, ice picks.
How many massacres were done with knives? How many massacres were done with assault weapons? That would be a hundred times more massacres done with assault weapons.
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According to the US government almost all massacres are done with assault weapons.
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With 40,000-gun deaths a year in America it happens far more frequently than you would like to believe.
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Wrong there have been mass murders done with automatic assault weapons.
There are three know incidents where converted to automatic assault weapons were used to commit crimes. The famous bank robbery in North Hollywood used converted to full-automatic assault weapons. They made a movie out of that bank robbery. One estimate states that 2,000 rounds were fired both robbers were killed and twelve police officers were wounded along with eight civilians. The robbers had “several illegally converted weapons two Norinco Type 56 S rifles, a fully automatic Norinco 56 S-1 and fully automatic Bushmaster XM 15 Dissipator.
Now you can quit telling that fairy tale.
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The second amendment forbids nothing it grants a right to bears arms, period.
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Somebody gets to decide on the definition of terms and those people are the elected representatives and the Republicans cast the deciding votes on those terms.
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Dangerous and unusual or dangerous and deadly makes no difference, the Supreme Court has ruled they can be banned.
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Police officers can and do commit crimes also. I remember one police officer killing her ex-flame wife with her gun.
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There is a substantial difference between the four cylinder and an eight-cylinder Mustang but that does not change the fact that both are Mustangs.
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When there is a 500% range in any statistic it is totally worthless.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2019 08:58 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
The founding fathers intended to grant “a right to bear arms” with the second amendment not create a standing army.

How much propaganda can you fit into a half correct statement? They did not place a limit as to the type of gun you could own, they left it open with the all encompassing word Arm. In their view, you could own whatever you could afford. At the time, people owned cannons privately, your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment doesn't come from a place of Liberty, like all leftists, its about control and regulation.

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Foreign laws are not binding on US citizens. Foreign law was one reason for the American Revolution we would than hardly turn around and claim that we are subject to those same laws we revolted against.

We are not being bound to any foreign laws, the FF took the spirit of laws from other places, English Common Law, and enshrined them into our own laws. Should we get rid of voting because the FF didn't invent it?

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The second amendment does not specify and type of weapon. When second amendment says “a right to bear arms” it does not say military grade arms.

Don't be silly, they had just fought a war of Independence they would have allowed for such weapons in the event war ever came our shores again. The 2nd Amendment was created exactly because of people like you.

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The M-16 switch also lets it fire single shots is it no longer an assault weapon in this mode?

If you think that, you are an idiot. Having a selective fire switch makes it an assault rifle. Semi-auto rifles don't have a selective fire switch, so they are not assault weapons.

Quote:
Those rounds have shown quite effective on killing people when one man can massacres 59 people in ten minutes that is effective.

The rounds were not effective, if there were over 400 people wounded and only 58 killed, that points to the rounds more effect at wounding than killing, which is exactly how they were designed. You want to complain about how fast the weapon fires, but again the Las Vegas shooting disproves your claim when he only fired 1100 rounds in 10 minutes.

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The point was to show more people are murdered by knives than guns and that is a lie far more people are killed with guns in America.

Wrong, it was to show that more people are killed with sharp objects than rifles. 297 people killed with rifles of all types.

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How many massacres were done with knives?

Does it matter, over 1000 people have been killed with sharp objects, only 297 were killed with rifles you claim are so deadly.

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According to the US government almost all massacres are done with assault weapons.

Proof, links facts? Another claim with nothing to back it. With only 297 people killed with rifles, and over 7000 handguns, the stats and facts are not in your favor.

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With 40,000-gun deaths a year in America it happens far more frequently than you would like to believe.

I'll say it again because you seem to be ignoring it, but 60%+ of those deaths are suicide. People killing themselves is not "gun violence".

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Wrong there have been mass murders done with automatic assault weapons.

You have been asked for the proof of this claim for several weeks now and you have failed to provide even a single case where this has taken place.

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There are three know incidents where converted to automatic assault weapons were used to commit crimes.

You would be better off providing just the facts on those cases. You know like the date it happened names of people involved, that way your claims can be fact checked. You will also notice your words shift to prove your point. You went from mentioning automatic rifles being used in mass murders and now have switched the proof to crimes instead of mass murder

Quote:
The famous bank robbery in North Hollywood used converted to full-automatic assault weapons.
Now you can quit telling that fairy tale.

You can stop with the bait and switch. As I noted above, you were talking about mass murder and now switched to a bank robbery. Were are the 3 mentions of fully automatic rifles being used in mass murders? As you noted yourself, no one but the bank robbers were killed.

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The second amendment forbids nothing it grants a right to bears arms, period.

You are still failing to understand how Rights work. The govt doesn't grant those Rights, we already have them. The Bill of Rights was meant to restrict the govt and it's actions against the people. What the govt grants, it can take away and that flies in the face of what our Constitution stands for.

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Somebody gets to decide on the definition of terms and those people are the elected representatives and the Republicans cast the deciding votes on those terms.

It's the anti-gun people who are making the laws, not the pro-gun people. Should all of our rights be left up to the opposition and what they will allow? No, this train of thought fails to understand what Rights are.

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Dangerous and unusual or dangerous and deadly makes no difference, the Supreme Court has ruled they can be banned.

No they actually didn't. It was a single persons opinion on how they could be restricted, not banned.

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There is a substantial difference between the four cylinder and an eight-cylinder Mustang but that does not change the fact that both are Mustangs.

The 4 cylinder and 8 cylinder can go the same speed? You can get a 4 cylinder Mustang up to 140 mph? No you can't, they might both be Mustangs, but one can go a lot faster than the other. Based on your claims, a 4 cylinder can go the same exact high speed as the 8 cylinder, simply because they are Mustangs.











Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Tue 29 Oct, 2019 08:28 pm
@Baldimo,
I had some law classes and over 20 years in courts and the only restriction that “a right to bear arms” places on the government is that they cannot completely ban guns as long as there is a gun bear the government’s obligation has been met. We already know that automatic assault weapons are effectively banned. If your theory was correct this could not take place. The argument is over and the courts have decided it that way.
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Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Oct, 2019 08:20 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
I had some law classes and over 20 years in courts and the only restriction that “a right to bear arms” places on the government is that they cannot completely ban guns as long as there is a gun bear the government’s obligation has been met.

You fail to understand what Rights are and the govt's roll in securing our Rights. The Constitution is the restriction on the govt, that's the whole point of the Constitution.

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We already know that automatic assault weapons are effectively banned.

They are not actually banned, they are heavily restricted, there is a difference.

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If your theory was correct this could not take place.

That's where the activists judges came into play, they ruled against the 2nd Amendment based on their own wants, not what the Constitution said.

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The argument is over and the courts have decided it that way.

Except courts who rule against gun ownership are being overturned on a regular basis:
https://triblive.com/local/pittsburgh-allegheny/judge-strikes-down-pittsburghs-controversial-gun-bills/

The city of Pittsburgh tried to pass more restrictive laws than the state allows, a judge shut them down for violating state law. So no, not all gun laws are legal and they do get overturned all the time. It seems you are on the wrong side of history.

How can you think Trump is Hitler and then demand people give up their guns? It goes to show the left doesn't believe half of what they claim, if they did, they would support the 2nd Amendment. Instead we know it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with control over the population. It's easier to control an unarmed population, as numerous leftists socialist regimes have proven over time.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Oct, 2019 11:09 pm
@Baldimo,
English Common Law goes back to 1066 so that is nearly a thousand years. Common law was in effect judges made law. The law was spread across England colonies. Previous decisions can be bought to attention of the judge in current case and he can decide how weigh to assign the precedent. This in no way establish a right to assault weapons. Most people don’t want to live under the laws written in 1066.
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There is no such thing as a natural right and the only thing the government cannot do is take all the guns it must allow at least a few arms to bear. The second amendment still allows the government to decide what arms are allowed and court decision have backed this up.
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A baby becomes a baby only after it is born, a fetus is not a baby. Women have rights a bunch of developing cells do not have rights under the Constitution.
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Guns make it possible to kill themselves or others, take the guns away and that number would be radically reduced. Guns are murder made easy.
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If you have an “arm to bear” that statement has been met in full it has not been infringed in anyway. You want to claim more than you were given. The primary purpose of government is to create an orderly society.
Take all of the guns and that right has been infringed but that would be the only way to infringe it.
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It is pretty simple the second amendment says, you have “a right to bear arms.” That seems to be extremely clear, it clearly says it gave you a right. But you insist the very words are wrong. If the second amendment was written in ambiguous language there might be an argument but is extremely clear to anyone who speaks English.
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That is exactly how rights work and it is how the English language works. Words have specific meanings in court you cannot add words or conditions beyond what is there. If the second amendment said you had “a right to bear assault weapons you might have case that it was infringed on when assault weapons were banned.
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If I grant you a right that you have a right away across my property it does not deprive me of the property. That is the same way with the second amendment they grant you “a right to bear arms” but in no way does it take away the government responsibility to protect the general public and control dangerous and deadly weapons.
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Only the statement “a right to bear arms” is what cannot be infringed. If you believe that statement keeps the government from banning any gun than the streets should be full of automatic assault weapons.
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Activists judges read all kinds of things that are not there and believe it is up to them to make the law and this is what has happened with gun decisions. A judge that is not an activist will confine any decision to the exact words as written. The second amendment protects only “a right to bear arms.”
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It does not make any difference if 60% were suicides those are still real deaths caused by the availability of guns.
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Suicides are as real as other murders they just murdered themselves and guns will be the primary method of suicide.
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Trump is going to do his level best to start a civil war if he is impeached if those types weapon available to general public we would be in state of constant civil war between different political factions. Killing plenty is one thing but taking over the country is another.

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Assault weapons were also the most popular weapon for massacres and that is why they were banned. No other weapon comes even close to killing, 59 people or 50 people at time. You do not get to make the definition of terms that is up to the legislature. No one has killed 59 people with a knife in one incident.
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If you look at the two assault weapons the Thompson looks much different and the Thompson was considered a machine gun.
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The 78% of Americans don’t own a gun figure was given on CNN about 9 days ago. It was given by a lifetime member of the NRA. This time I recorded it because it had other gun statistics.
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What they saw was all the children being killed with a weapon that was designed to slaughter human beings. That why they cut their AR-15s up they could have sold them to a mass murderer but they cut them up instead.
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Mass shooting are not are not rare they occur more than one a day now. Record setting massacres are more frequent than they were a few years ago. You seldom turn on a television where a mass shooting hasn’t taken. There were two mass shootings last weekend. You can go after the government with a regular rifle after all the Revolutionary war was won with muskets.
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Like the stand your ground law where you can tackle and kill teenagers and claim self-defense. Or pick a fight over a parking spot and when you get pushed down on your butt murder the guy. These people don’t protect themselves they use the gun to bully people. The standard under the law had been to deescalate the situation if possible until the gun lobby got laws made to escalate the situation to murder when ever possible. I remember the gun nuts in the neighborhood using shot guns to bully people with them. One woman at work always claimed she could tell when people had a gun by the way they walked and they way they stood just like they were looking for a fight.
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I don’t think anybody in our society can escape knowing how guns work. They just need to watch the evening news 59 dead here, 49 dead there, hours of news coverage and it is not question of whether another massacre will happen it is only a question of when.
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The 2016 election took out about 60 of the crooked politicians who were taking the NRA blood money. Many politicians have stopped taking the NRA blood money because polls show they will not be reelected.
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Trump himself called on Russia to help him in the last election Though he lied about later it was recorded and replayed. Now with the Ukraine Trump is again trying to win an election with the help of foreigners. At the World Series when Trump was introduced the crowd started chanting ‘Lock him up, Lock him up.” They said he left his son home to keep him from being embarrassed. Trump’s campaign manager went to jail along with his personal lawyer who paid off his whores. Several other people on his campaign also went to jail. A judge just ruled the real Mueller is going to be released without 35 pages of redactions.
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They in no way infringe on “a right to bear arms.” Trump has done more damage to the Republican party than Nixon. The real Republicans realize Trump has undercut all of the traditional Republican values.
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What the public is waking up to is that they can ban assault weapons and stop the massacres.













Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Thu 31 Oct, 2019 09:57 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
English Common Law goes back to 1066 so that is nearly a thousand years. Common law was in effect judges made law. The law was spread across England colonies. Previous decisions can be bought to attention of the judge in current case and he can decide how weigh to assign the precedent. This in no way establish a right to assault weapons. Most people don’t want to live under the laws written in 1066.

We aren't living under any laws from 1066, that's just a blatant lie. The Bill of Rights were founded off of other existing laws of the time. Should we do away with Free Speech since it is an old law?

Quote:
There is no such thing as a natural right and the only thing the government cannot do is take all the guns it must allow at least a few arms to bear. The second amendment still allows the government to decide what arms are allowed and court decision have backed this up.

Shall not be infringed! The Constitution is there to restrict the federal govt, not grant it rights. Rights are reserved for the people, not the govt.

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A baby becomes a baby only after it is born, a fetus is not a baby. Women have rights a bunch of developing cells do not have rights under the Constitution.

Since you seem so big on things only being Constitutional if they are spelled out in the Constitution, where is abortion listed in the Constitution? A human fetus will only become a human, a fetus won't become a ham sandwich.

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Guns make it possible to kill themselves or others, take the guns away and that number would be radically reduced. Guns are murder made easy.

No that number won't be reduced, if that were the case, then countries with strict gun laws wouldn't lead the world in suicide rates. The US isn't even in the top 20 countries with high suicide rates, heck, we aren't even in the top 30. Getting rid of guns will do nothing to stop people from killing themselves.

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If you have an “arm to bear” that statement has been met in full it has not been infringed in anyway.

Yes, any restriction on the Amendment is a infringement. Based on this, we could severally limit abortion, which isn't mentioned in the Constitution, to the first 3 weeks. They can still get an abortion... no one said they had to be allowed to get an abortion at anytime they wanted. Lets leave it at 6 weeks and no more.

The entire point of the 2nd Amendment is to fight the govt if it ever becomes tyrannical. You can't fight the govt if they only allow you to have a bolt action rifle.

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That is exactly how rights work and it is how the English language works. Words have specific meanings in court you cannot add words or conditions beyond what is there. If the second amendment said you had “a right to bear assault weapons you might have case that it was infringed on when assault weapons were banned.

You claim all of this,and yet abortion which isn't listed in the Constitution and has never been added to the Constitution, is somehow Constitutional?

Quote:
If I grant you a right that you have a right away across my property it does not deprive me of the property. That is the same way with the second amendment they grant you “a right to bear arms” but in no way does it take away the government responsibility to protect the general public and control dangerous and deadly weapons.

The govt doesn't grant rights. Your faulty story has nothing to do with the actual Constitution.

Quote:
Only the statement “a right to bear arms” is what cannot be infringed. If you believe that statement keeps the government from banning any gun than the streets should be full of automatic assault weapons.

No, you can't infringe on a Right, the 2nd Amendment is the only Amendment that has"shall not be infringed" Why do you think that is?

Quote:
Activists judges read all kinds of things that are not there and believe it is up to them to make the law and this is what has happened with gun decisions.

You mean like seeing a right to abortion in the Constitution, where there isn't one?

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It does not make any difference if 60% were suicides those are still real deaths caused by the availability of guns.

It makes a huge difference when you are using that state to say gun violence is out of control. People killing themselves is not gun violence.

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Suicides are as real as other murders they just murdered themselves and guns will be the primary method of suicide.

Stop making things up to support your propaganda.

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Trump is going to do his level best to start a civil war if he is impeached if those types weapon available to general public we would be in state of constant civil war between different political factions. Killing plenty is one thing but taking over the country is another.

It's the left who is doing their level best to start a civil war. It's a war they want, that's why they are trying to disarm the American public, they want as little resistance as possible when they make their move. The 2nd Amendment keeps those leftists in check, that's why you want it repealed so badly.

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Assault weapons were also the most popular weapon for massacres and that is why they were banned.

It has already been proven that handguns are resonsible for most of the murders in the US. 297 people were killed with rifles of all types, more were killed with sharp objects.

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If you look at the two assault weapons the Thompson looks much different and the Thompson was considered a machine gun.

That's because the Thompson was a fully automatic gun, the AR-15 isn't.

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The 78% of Americans don’t own a gun figure was given on CNN about 9 days ago. It was given by a lifetime member of the NRA. This time I recorded it because it had other gun statistics.

That stat is a lie. CNN is the last place I would believe any stats on guns, they have a blatant bias against guns and the 2nd Amendment. Where did they get this study from and why haven't you shared any info on the study?

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Mass shooting are not are not rare they occur more than one a day now.

No, they are rare.

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Record setting massacres are more frequent than they were a few years ago.

No they aren't, the MSM just talks about them all the time, leaving viewers to believe they happen all the time. It's telling which shootings they talk about after the fact. They all want to mention the El Paso shooting, but they almost never talk about the Dayton shooting... Why is that? It's because of who the shooter was. The Dayton shooter was a left-wing guy, they don't mention that, but they have no problem talking about the El Paso shooter who was right-wing. Why the bias? The media has also failed to follow up on the 5 or 6 attacks against ICE facilities by people from the left.

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Like the stand your ground law where you can tackle and kill teenagers and claim self-defense.

That hasn't happened, stop lying.

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Or pick a fight over a parking spot and when you get pushed down on your butt murder the guy.

that guy was found guilty and is doing jail time.

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The 2016 election took out about 60 of the crooked politicians who were taking the NRA blood money.

Wrong again, the GOP won the House and the Senate in 2016.

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Many politicians have stopped taking the NRA blood money because polls show they will not be reelected.

That just isn't the case. The 2018 election had nothing to do with the NRA and everything to do with impeachment of Trump. The left ran on nothing but impeachment in 2018, they will be losing a good chunk of those seats in 2020.

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Trump himself called on Russia to help him in the last election

No he didn't. Asking them to find 30k deleted emails from a server that was never investigated by the FBI?

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Now with the Ukraine Trump is again trying to win an election with the help of foreigners.

It seems the DNC had plenty of help from foreigners, the Steele Dossier, which was filled with information gathered from Russians?

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What the public is waking up to is that they can ban assault weapons and stop the massacres.

It won't stop anything. A majority of mass shootings are done with guns other than rifles, 297 people killed with rifles of all types...







Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 31 Oct, 2019 08:30 pm
@oralloy,
You can not transport a right across a country’s border like you can a gun. Do you actually believe that people of 2,600 ago were qualified to write the laws we must live under today? Do you think that would preclude us from making laws we live under today? Surely you understand that living conditions were very different 2600 years ago. This would be dead hand control taken to an extreme. Would you like to live under the rest of the laws in effect at the time? No, you want to cherry pick the laws and say the rest don’t apply. The founding fathers decided what rights that would be granted to Americans. The American Revolution was all about breaking away from the laws of the old world. The divine right of Kings was a right that the founding fathers refused to put in effect in America. As Americans we want to decide what laws we live under and will not submit to the laws of King that been dead 25 centuries.
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Fri 1 Nov, 2019 10:27 pm
@Baldimo,
You have absolutely no problem with taking rights away as long as it is all the rights of 20 first graders to live there life as long as you have assault weapons to go bang, bang. In any law you cannot go beyond the writing “a right to bear arms” is just that “a right to bear arms. The government is the one granting the right if they had intended to grant more with the second, amendment they would have to be more specific. You are just like the couple renting a house with two cars in the driveway. The add didn’t say anything about the cars but the add didn’t specify the cars didn’t go with the house either. So, you make the assumption the cars went with the house if they were not specifically excluded. That is what you are doing with second amendment.
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The founding fathers were free to enact laws from any country they pleased but it was their choice we were never bound by the laws of other countries. O claims an absolute right to guns derived from foreign laws.
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The revolutionary war was fought before the Constitution was written. By the time the Civil War was fought the government had a professional army. Mass murderers don’t use cannons for massacres they use assault weapons. Who do you think bought most of the weapons in the Revolutionary war? This was the beginning of the National Debt.
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You are the one claiming the only difference between an assault weapon and a regular rifle is if it fires single shots. Once an automatic assault weapon is moved to the single shot mode it is no longer an assault weapon by your definition.
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Fifty-nine killed is a record for a massacre done with an assault weapon. In this case he was a distance away and could not put his gun up to their head as was done in other cases.
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Since one massacre can kill 59 people and massacres are getting much more frequent and the body count higher that 297 body count number has to be low. Many suicides are done with shot guns and that is simply someone murdering themselves.
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Most of those killed with sharp objects were no doubt done in prison where killing with shives is popular only because they can’t have guns.
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You have to follow what is going on in the country and I have not heard of any massacres where 50 people were killed with a 22 revolver. You can try to play dumb but you know what weapons are being used in the massacres.
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A suicide is simply someone murdering themselves. That 60% are murders also. Ten police officers committed suicide in New York this year they murdered themselves.
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The North Hollywood bank robbery end with two dead and twenty wounded and there were several assault weapons converted to full automatics.
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The search I used to locate how often full automatics have been the sites is: “How often Have full-automatics actually used in crimes” That is a gun nut sight. “The Reddit Firearms Community”
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This case was a mass shooting but there were two deaths. This is one of the most famous shootouts in history with the cops. If you can’t find this you can’t find anything. Two people armed with converted automatic assault weapons held off the Los Angles police department. One cop went into a local gun store and took an assault weapon but was still out gunned. If you had several converted automatic assault weapons at one crime scene, they are all over the country.
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If I give you turkey it doesn’t mean I am going to throw in the farm. That is what you expect to happen with the second amendment. To try and claim the actual writing second amendment means nothing and that it is only a restriction on the Federal Government. There have always been some lame court decision and the decision that argument is based on is the lamest court decision in history. That is to claim the figure is imaginary and the shadow real.
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The Republicans cast the deciding votes on the 1994 assault weapons ban and the republican NRA members had input in writing the ban. The law of the land will be the law of the land and the rights that are being taken are of those being killed with assault weapons, It use to be that only soldiers returning from war suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome but now elementary students are being diagnosed as they watched their classmates being massacred.
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Some words mean the same thing a restriction that restricted assault weapons would be in effect a ban. Assault weapons would be restricted from the public. The supreme court is not a single opinion it takes a majority and is binding on lower courts.
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A four-cylinder Mustang will not go as fast as the 8-cylinder model but they are both still Mustangs. The claim is only they are both Mustangs the same way a semi-automatic assault weapon will not fire as fast as an automatic but that does not change the fact that they are both assault weapons.


Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sat 2 Nov, 2019 08:55 pm
@Baldimo,
You tend to believe “the right to bear arms” is not a right but a restriction placed on government. If the founding fathers intended to put restrictions on government, we would have a bill of restrictions instead of a bill of rights. You really believe that “a right to bear arms” forbids the government from having any control at all over guns, that is not the case.
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Automatic assault weapons are effectively banned they can no longer be sold in America.
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Activist judges rule far in excess of the writing of the law, just like your interpretation of the second amendment. If you have “a right to bear arms” reading it as you have a right to bear assault weapons far exceeds the limits of the second amendment.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Supreme Court has ruled and the lower courts are bound by that decision. If a lower court rules otherwise the Supreme Court will simply overturn that court. There is an order and it is Federal, State and City. Generally, a city cannot make a law that violates state law nor can a state make a law that violates Federal law. In this case the Supreme Court has already ruled that dangerous and deadly weapons can be regulated. There is no higher court to appeal to.
Zardoz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Nov, 2019 11:34 pm
@Baldimo,
O is the one that claims he has a right, derived from common law, to all weapons based in common law. The second amendment provides the bases for a claim to have “a right to bear arms.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can never infringe a right that says you have “a right to bear arms” as long a you have an arm to bear. It is a bill of rights not a bill of restrictions. If the founding fathers wanted to restrict the government it would have been called restrictions but they granted rights.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The constitution granted rights to human beings not to fetuses. For the most part the founding fathers were atheist and did not worry about religious illusions of when the soul entered the body. We would be living under a King today because the religious believed in the divine right of kings. It was God who decided who ran a country of course it was men that told them what God wanted. A woman has an absolute right to her body just as you have an absolute right to yours. A right to happiness would be violated when a woman is forced to give birth to a severely retarded child that will cost millions to care for.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It always comes down to the path of least resistance. The son of a guy I worked with had an argument with his girl-friend. He came home grabbed his dad’s gun and blew his head off. If the gun had not been their he would have made up with his girlfriend the next and went on but the gun was there and on impulse he blew his head off. Suicide is often an impulse and not planned and the brains of those in their early 20s have not matured. We had a local businessman who owned a T-Shirt store. He decided to commit suicide in a local park next to his store. He got a rope and climbed a hill when he jumped the rope broke and he went over hill. He is still living today if he had a gun he would not have missed. All the cop suicides eat their own gun. Take the path of least resistance away and suicide rate will be cut in half regardless of what happens in other countries. I suspect guns are cause of most suicides.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When they give you a right you can only infringe on what is actually written not what is imagined. If you have “a right to bear arms” that is all you have and nothing more. Abortion was illegal in America at one time it was like the gun problem causing way too many deaths before the Supreme Court ruling. They have severely limited abortions in some cases closing every abortion clinic in some states.
You could never fight government tanks, missiles and fighter planes with an assault weapons that is a pipe dream.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It is hard to believe that anyone would believe that the government has absolute control over your body. If you had a few cells that you wanted removed, say a tumor, then the government could rule that you could not remove it because it is alive and growing. We know the tumor is alive because it is growing and all life is sacred according to religion. It would be a sin to kill that tumor. The right to happiness would surely be violated.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The government has all kinds of right of ways, every street, side walk or utility easement. Depending on the state the state owns the right of way or in other states the right away is owned by the property owner.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But you have to know what the right actually is that can’t be infringed and that is determined by the actual writing and writing is “a right to bear arms.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A right to happiness is certainly. I have never read the court decision on abortion and I don’t know the legal theory that resulted in the decision.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Twenty-four thousand suicides is gun violence out of control.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Suicides are murder, you are killing a human being, yourself.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No one will ever be disarmed as long as there is a second amendment but dangerous and deadly weapons will be restricted. It is the right that has the guns and that is what Trump is using to threaten the country with if he is removed from office.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Massacres are done with assault weapons, we are not talking about most murders, we are talking about 20 school children being slaughtered because they went to school. To you the massacres are acceptable as long as you can have a gun to play with.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Ar-15 can be converted and converted assault weapons are showing up on the streets.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The fact that 78% of Americans no longer own a gun was given by a lifetime NRA member.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mass shootings happen more than once a day now. I have tried to keep track of all the shootings here locally but there are so many that there is no way. Just last week we had a guy that shot several fire trucks up when the police went to arrest him, he opened fire on them one of policemen was hit four times, the other took two in vest, the suspect was killed and his dad wounded. His dad stepped between his son and the police. That is a mass shooting where four or more are shot.
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We got as much coverage of the Dayton massacre as the El Paso massacre. Dayton is within a 100-miles or so from here. They did not make much of the shooter’s politics. It was more about the assault weapons and how many he killed in thirty seconds.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That was exactly what happened in Florida a busybody saw a black teenager on somebody else’s property, tackled him and killed him. He was tried and found innocent because of the stand your ground law. You can just tackle any teenagers get into a fight say you felt threatened and blow them away. It is the idiot’s law. It was all over the news and the guy has assaulted others since.
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To start that guy was not even charged until there was a huge public outcry. The DA had no intention of charging him until they figured out that whole town was going to burn to the ground if he didn’t.
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Your correct it was 2018 election.
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After the Parkland massacre it sparked a large political organization that targeted the politicians that were taking the NRA’s blood money and they were extremely successful. That organization listed the results.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The FBI had the emails and returned them after they were sorted between business and private.
Just as Trump tried to extort the Ukraine, he tried every way possible to get Russia to help him win the 2016 election. His efforts with Ukraine prove he worked with Russia. The crowd at the World Series kept chanting “lock him up, Lock him up.”
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The Republicans are responsible for the Steele Dossier. Do you not see the difference? Extorsion is a crime that people are locked up for and Trump was extorting the Ukraine to do a sham investigation of a wild ass conspiracy theory he could use in the election.
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If we can stop the massacres where 59 people are killed and the constant massacre of school children it will be progress.
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 02:28 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
You have absolutely no problem with taking rights away as long as it is all the rights of 20 first graders to live there life as long as you have assault weapons to go bang, bang.

I've taken no one's rights away. To blame other gun owners for the actions of others is weak. Do we blame all vehicle owners for those that drive recklessly and kill people with cars? No we don't, we hold people responsible for their own actions. We don't blame or sue Ford or Chevy when their cars are used in an improper manner, only for faulty operation.

Quote:
In any law you cannot go beyond the writing “a right to bear arms” is just that “a right to bear arms. The government is the one granting the right if they had intended to grant more with the second, amendment they would have to be more specific.

The govt doesn't grant Rights, they already exist. That's the point behind Rights. What the govt grants, the govt can take away, hence Rights already exist and are not granted. You continually to understand what Rights are.

Quote:
The founding fathers were free to enact laws from any country they pleased but it was their choice we were never bound by the laws of other countries. O claims an absolute right to guns derived from foreign laws.

He is correct, that is where the FF derived a great portion of our Bill of Rights from. Only an idiot would think our laws are linked to foreign laws.

Quote:
The revolutionary war was fought before the Constitution was written.

Exactly, that's why they included the 2nd Amendment into our Constitution, as one of the founding principles of our nation. They knew all govt's could become tyrannical and wanted the citizens of the US to prevent such things from taking place. You on the other hand want to foster a totalitarian govt, where the govt decides what Rights you have and don't have, with no way for the people to fight back.

Quote:
By the time the Civil War was fought the government had a professional army.

Which has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment or the reasons why the FF drafted the 2nd Amendment. You need to read the Federalist and anti-Federalist Papers to have any understanding of the Constitution.

Quote:
You are the one claiming the only difference between an assault weapon and a regular rifle is if it fires single shots.

Wrong, me and people who actually know about weapons. The difference is the selective fire switch, which allows a gun to fire full auto, burst or semi-auto. An AR-15 only fires in semi-auto, there is no selective fire switch.

Quote:
Once an automatic assault weapon is moved to the single shot mode it is no longer an assault weapon by your definition.

Wrong, it has a selective fire switch, a semi-auto gun does not. Stop trying to change the meanings of things to create more propaganda.

Quote:
Fifty-nine killed is a record for a massacre done with an assault weapon. In this case he was a distance away and could not put his gun up to their head as was done in other cases.

When you have no rational argument, you creep into the emotional.

Quote:
Since one massacre can kill 59 people and massacres are getting much more frequent and the body count higher that 297 body count number has to be low.

So since you can't refute the stats, you are going to make lies up about the stats? It just proves that what you claim about mass shootings just isn't reality. You try to pick the extraordinary shootings and try to portray them as the common occurrence, when that just isn't the case. Most "mass shootings" involve few people, the bare minimum to meet the generic definition, not the mass amount of people you and the media want them to be. It's why there is almost no news coverage of the majority of mass shootings, they don't fit their agenda because they aren't done with a semi-auto rifle.

There was a mass shooting at a Halloween party in CA over the weekend, 5 people killed and 5 injured. The shooting was done with a handgun, not a rifle, like a vast majority of the "mass shootings" that take place in America.

Quote:
Most of those killed with sharp objects were no doubt done in prison where killing with shives is popular only because they can’t have guns.

When you can't logically debate the facts or the stats, you start making up reasons why the stats aren't right... you simply can't admit you are wrong about the FBI crime data and what it actually says.

Quote:
You have to follow what is going on in the country and I have not heard of any massacres where 50 people were killed with a 22 revolver. You can try to play dumb but you know what weapons are being used in the massacres.

Who said anything about a 22 revolver? We are talking about handguns, which come in pistol and semi-auto form. They range in calibers from .22 all the way up to 44 Mag and higher. The Texas kid who shot up his high school with a shotgun and .38 revolver, didn't have any rifles, neither did the VA campus shooter and neither did the guy who recently shot up a Halloween party in CA.

Quote:
You can try to play dumb but you know what weapons are being used in the massacres.

There is only one person being dumb here and it isn't me.

Quote:
A suicide is simply someone murdering themselves. That 60% are murders also. Ten police officers committed suicide in New York this year they murdered themselves.

Playing with the meaning of words again? Suicide isn't murder and isn't counted as "murdering yourself." Once again, stop with the attempts at propaganda.

Quote:
The North Hollywood bank robbery end with two dead and twenty wounded and there were several assault weapons converted to full automatics.

That was a bank robbery, not a mass shooting. The claim as you have made it was converted semi-auto rifles being converted to auto rifles for the purpose of a mass shooting. Do you even see what you do when you are losing?

Quote:
The search I used to locate how often full automatics have been the sites is: “How often Have full-automatics actually used in crimes” That is a gun nut sight. “The Reddit Firearms Community”

Reddit? You want to claim Wikipedia isn't worthy so you bring in Reddit? This is your claim to how often full-auto rifles have been used in mass shootings? The number is zero. You really have gone off the deep end.

Quote:
This case was a mass shooting but there were two deaths. This is one of the most famous shootouts in history with the cops. If you can’t find this you can’t find anything. Two people armed with converted automatic assault weapons held off the Los Angles police department. One cop went into a local gun store and took an assault weapon but was still out gunned. If you had several converted automatic assault weapons at one crime scene, they are all over the country.

This was a bank robbery, not a mass shooting.

Quote:
The Republicans cast the deciding votes on the 1994 assault weapons ban and the republican NRA members had input in writing the ban.

It was still a bad law that expired and should stay that way. It had zero effect on mass shootings, the Columbine HS shooting took place in the middle of the ban...

Quote:
A four-cylinder Mustang will not go as fast as the 8-cylinder model but they are both still Mustangs. The claim is only they are both Mustangs the same way a semi-automatic assault weapon will not fire as fast as an automatic but that does not change the fact that they are both assault weapons.

A 4 cylinder Mustang can go the same speed as the v8? According to you, they can because they both have the name Mustang, that must mean they go the same speed.




Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 03:02 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
You tend to believe “the right to bear arms” is not a right but a restriction placed on government.

A Right of the people is a restriction on the govt, that's the entire point behind a Right, it can't be taken by the govt.

Quote:
If the founding fathers intended to put restrictions on government, we would have a bill of restrictions instead of a bill of rights.

Rights belong to the People, not the govt. The Constitution is the restriction of the govt to protect the Rights of the people. What's difficult to understand about this concept?

Quote:
You really believe that “a right to bear arms” forbids the government from having any control at all over guns, that is not the case.

That is how it was written, hence the phrase "Shall not be infringed", which you always seem to forget exists. It was activist judges and politicians who sought to limit a Right.

Quote:
Automatic assault weapons are effectively banned they can no longer be sold in America.

You would be wrong again. You can indeed purchase a full-auto rifle in the US, it is restricted to those who can get a Class III Firearms license. The ban is on weapons newer than 1986, when the new law went into place.

Quote:
Activist judges rule far in excess of the writing of the law, just like your interpretation of the second amendment.

This comment makes no sense, try it again in English.

Quote:
The Supreme Court has ruled and the lower courts are bound by that decision.

The SC ruled we have the right to bear arms in accordance with the 2nd Amendment. Now we just have to get them to follow the Shall not be infringed provision of the 2nd Amendment.



Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Nov, 2019 04:07 pm
@Zardoz,
Quote:
O is the one that claims he has a right, derived from common law, to all weapons based in common law. The second amendment provides the bases for a claim to have “a right to bear arms.”

You continue to prove you have zero understanding of the founding of this nation.

Quote:
You can never infringe a right that says you have “a right to bear arms” as long a you have an arm to bear.

That isn't how Rights work.

Quote:
The constitution granted rights to human beings not to fetuses.

The Constitution doesn't gran Rights, they already exist. The Constitution spells those Rights out to the govt so they can protect those Rights.

There is zero mention of abortion in the Constitution, how can something not mentioned in the Constitution be Constitutional?

Quote:
For the most part the founding fathers were atheist and did not worry about religious illusions of when the soul entered the body.

Revisionist history at it's best. The FF were believers in God, but they were agnostic, not atheists. Why would atheists start the Constitution with a mention of the Creator?

Quote:
We would be living under a King today because the religious believed in the divine right of kings.

Not all religious people, the people who founded this nation would disagree with you and your claim.

Quote:
A woman has an absolute right to her body just as you have an absolute right to yours.

I don't have absolute right to my body, I can't sell a kidney or part of my liver to someone. I also can't clone myself, so no, we don't have absolute control over our own bodies.

Quote:
It always comes down to the path of least resistance.

True. If someone has absolute claim over their body, what difference is it to you if they kill themselves?

Quote:
When they give you a right you can only infringe on what is actually written not what is imagined.

Right's are not given by the govt, how many times do you have to be told this?
Read this above when thinking of abortion... where is this Right spelled out in the Constitution? According to you, if it isn't written, it doesn't exist. How could a court determine something was Constitutional if it isn't written in the Constitution?

Quote:
If you have “a right to bear arms” that is all you have and nothing more. Abortion was illegal in America at one time it was like the gun problem causing way too many deaths before the Supreme Court ruling.

Everything you have said here is nonsense with zero info to back your claims. You are just making things up again.

Quote:
You could never fight government tanks, missiles and fighter planes with an assault weapons that is a pipe dream.

Thank you for proving that the FF intended us to have the same type of weapons the govt has. After all the the purpose of the 2nd Amendment as to fight the govt if it got out of control.

Quote:
It is hard to believe that anyone would believe that the government has absolute control over your body. If you had a few cells that you wanted removed, say a tumor, then the government could rule that you could not remove it because it is alive and growing. We know the tumor is alive because it is growing and all life is sacred according to religion. It would be a sin to kill that tumor. The right to happiness would surely be violated.

More nonsense. A tumor would never survive outside of the human body. Medical tech has advanced to the point were premature babies are surviving at earlier and earlier births. Your point is pointless.

Quote:
The government has all kinds of right of ways, every street, side walk or utility easement. Depending on the state the state owns the right of way or in other states the right away is owned by the property owner.

Are you really trying to compare a "right of way" to an actual Constitutional Right? Wow, you really are demented.

Quote:
But you have to know what the right actually is that can’t be infringed and that is determined by the actual writing and writing is “a right to bear arms.”

There is zero right to an abortion in the Constitution and yet you try to argue in favor of something that isn't listed in the Constitution. Guns are listed in the Constitution and yet you try to say they are not...

Quote:
A right to happiness is certainly. I have never read the court decision on abortion and I don’t know the legal theory that resulted in the decision.

There is no Constitutional Right to happiness. The only place you will find the word is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Bill of Rights or the Constitution:
Quote:
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness " is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence.[1] The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their creator, and which governments are created to protect.


Quote:
I have never read the court decision on abortion and I don’t know the legal theory that resulted in the decision.

Legal theory is not the same thing as the Constitution. According to you, it can't be a right if it isn't spelled out in the Constitution. Since abortion isn't listed in the Constitution it can't possibly be Constitutional. This is according to what you have been claiming.

Quote:
Twenty-four thousand suicides is gun violence out of control.

Considering there were over 40k suicides in the US for the last couple of years, your claims are once again wrong.
Quote:
In 2017, there were 47,173 recorded suicides,[2] up from 42,773 in 2014, according to the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

Quote:
Suicides are murder, you are killing a human being, yourself.

Wrong again. Murder is murder and suicide is suicide.

Murder:
Quote:
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.


Suicide:
Quote:
Suicide is the act of intentionally causing one's own death.


Quote:
No one will ever be disarmed as long as there is a second amendment but dangerous and deadly weapons will be restricted.

Wrong, when the killing doesn't stop you will move to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, we already know that's the plan. Way to many leftist politicians have slipped and let the truth be known. You have done the same thing.

Quote:
It is the right that has the guns and that is what Trump is using to threaten the country with if he is removed from office.

Wrong again. That's the fear of the left, that's why they want no more guns in the US. With an armed populace they can't take our rights away and sell our nation out to the global socialists. You fear us protecting our nation.

Quote:
Massacres are done with assault weapons, we are not talking about most murders, we are talking about 20 school children being slaughtered because they went to school.

More emotion and no facts. with 297 people killed with all rifles combined the "massacres" are not being done with rifles. They are the rare but newsworthy cases that the media likes to hype because it scares weak people like you.

Quote:
To you the massacres are acceptable as long as you can have a gun to play with.

That just isn't the case. I want to see an end to "gun free zones" so people can actually protect themselves, not be left to the slaughter when it takes police minutes to arrive.

Quote:
The Ar-15 can be converted and converted assault weapons are showing up on the streets.

You keep saying this but you fail to prove your claim. It should be easy to find such cases, the MSM would be reporting them as breaking news. So instead of proving your claim, you just keep repeating faulty information in hopes someone will believe you.

Quote:
The fact that 78% of Americans no longer own a gun was given by a lifetime NRA member.

You have also failed to prove this claim, you keep repeating it without proving it, that's a pattern with a majority of what you claim.

Quote:
Mass shootings happen more than once a day now.

They actually don't, but the media would like you to think they are. They classify all sorts of shootings as mass shootings now. You tried to claim the North Hollywood Bank job was a mass shooting.

Quote:
Just last week we had a guy that shot several fire trucks up when the police went to arrest him, he opened fire on them one of policemen was hit four times, the other took two in vest, the suspect was killed and his dad wounded. His dad stepped between his son and the police. That is a mass shooting where four or more are shot.

No, this is not a mass shooting. This is the lie being put forth by the MSM, any shooting with 4 people shot is a mass shooting. That isn't the case.

Quote:
We got as much coverage of the Dayton massacre as the El Paso massacre. Dayton is within a 100-miles or so from here. They did not make much of the shooter’s politics. It was more about the assault weapons and how many he killed in thirty seconds.

They didn't make much of the shooters politics because his politics was leftist. Of course the media isn't going to report that, it doesn't fit their propaganda. You heard all sort of news about the El Paso shooters politics, because he was a rightist. The media plays games with the news and you have just proven it to be true.

Quote:
That was exactly what happened in Florida a busybody saw a black teenager on somebody else’s property, tackled him and killed him.

That isn't even close to what happened. The shooter was not the aggressor as proven in the court case, that's why he was found innocent. I talked about the Martin/Zimmerman case a lot when it happened. Let me guess, Mike Brown had his hands up?

Quote:
To start that guy was not even charged until there was a huge public outcry. The DA had no intention of charging him until they figured out that whole town was going to burn to the ground if he didn’t.

He never should have been charged, it was a waste of taxpayer monies. It was a clean defensive shooting, that's why the police weren't going to press charges.

Quote:
After the Parkland massacre it sparked a large political organization that targeted the politicians that were taking the NRA’s blood money and they were extremely successful. That organization listed the results.

Sorry, that just isn't the case, the anti-NRA crowd wasn't what won the election, it was the false claims of impeachment that won the election.

Quote:
The FBI had the emails and returned them after they were sorted between business and private.

That is a lie. Clintons lawyer went through the emails and made that determination. They then deleted the emails before handing them over to the FBI, which they failed to turn over 30k emails.

Quote:
The Republicans are responsible for the Steele Dossier.

Wrong, it was all Hillary Clinton, Fusion GPS, DNC and a foreign spy known as Christopher Steele. We are also going to find out that the FBI and CIA were involed. I warned you about this months and months ago that there were DNC connections in the Ukraine and that there were issues there from the 2016 elections. I was right, you were wrong.

Quote:
Extorsion is a crime that people are locked up for and Trump was extorting the Ukraine to do a sham investigation of a wild ass conspiracy theory he could use in the election.

Not a wild conspiracy, it was the truth. The DNC is desperate and is throwing anything at the wall to keep the focus on Trump, and not what they did during the 2016 election. The Report is going to be released, it has already become a criminal investigation. Indictments are going to come down for high ranking Obama officials who were involved in the Trump setup.




 

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