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Christian and Pro-Choice

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:01 am
Frank, I am pro-abortion. So you can add one more person to your list.

I don't actively encourage people to have abortions as it's not my business but I wish for it.

Fishin' if you are "pro-sex" do you run around in the streets asking women to have sex with you?

There's a difference between being "pro" something and being a raving lunatic on the streets.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:06 am
As an aside I don't see anything hypocritical about being pro-choice and anti-abortion.

But there is such a thing as pro-abortion. I am very much in favor of abortion and it goes beyond it being a legal choice. I want it subsidized and free to all so that it is more commonly employed.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:12 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
There's a difference between being "pro" something and being a raving lunatic on the streets.


True enough however the prefix "pro" implies "favoring" and most people do not favor abortions. They see them as necessary but not desirable so they choose the "pro-choice" term to make clear they they aren't encouraging abortions but want them to be available. They are making a distinction about their personal preferences and their willingness (or lack of) to get into someone elses business.

btw, the only times I've ever heard "pro" and "sex" together there was also a discussion of $$ involved but I'd guess Slappy would have a better understanding of that area and I would... Wink
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:15 am
LOL

I recognize that many in the pro-choice camp are not pro-abortion and would probably resent being labeled that way. But it does exist, I am less pro-choice than pro-abortion.

I wish birth-control (though not necessarily abortion) were mandatory in some cases. Not much of a choice in my ideal.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:31 am
I now know of two people who want to be considered as pro-abortion.

Not a bad day!

I retract nothing of what I said earlier about the notion -- and in fact, I'd like to emphasize that I meant what I said ealier.

The suggestion that someone actually is pro-abortion (in any realistic meaning of that phrase) sound contrived -- but I must acknowledge there is so much stuff in these forums that seem that way -- no big surprise.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 08:35 am
Frank,

I think you had a point earlier in that pro-choice is very different from pro-abortion and that it's not hypocritical to be against abortion but in favor of choice. But to me, the pro-abortion position is also a valid term.

In my case the choice isn't the issue at all. I am in favor of birth control itself (which includes abortion).

I wish birth control were "opt-out" and not "opt-in".
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 09:53 am
Nope. None of that. I do however feel that abortion should never be made illegal. Therefore I am for abortions. I also happen to be pro-choice.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 10:09 am
Craven- I understand your position, and see what you are driving at.. I would expect that in places where people live in abject poverty and misery, abortion WOULD be a very desirable thing. Problem is, (and now I am making a generalization), in those areas, either religion or cultural norms would prevent women from having the abortions, even though the procedure might be available to them.
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yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:44 am
I ran across an article during a google search on the abortion positions of politicans and it that reminded me of this topic on a2k.

The Myth of Prochoice Neutrality 25 Years After Roe v. Wade
Quote:
Francis J. Beckwith

January 22, 1998 marks the 25th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, perhaps the U.S. Supreme Court's most controversial decision. Yet, it is probably the least understood. For many Americans mistakenly see it as a decision in which the government remains "neutral" on abortion.

Take for example the comments of Vice President Al Gore in a speech he gave on January 22, 1997, at a gathering sponsored by the the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League (NARAL). In his speech he said that his position on abortion was not pro-abortion, but rather, prochoice, since he was not saying that abortion was good or bad but only that pregnant women should be allowed to choose for themselves what to do without government interference. The Vice President's position is quite clear: those who are prochoice are neutral and tolerant while those who are prolife are partisan, intolerant, and trying to force their moral views on others.

However neutral this reasoning may sound, it is not. For its proponents fail to grasp the nature of the abortion debate and why some people oppose elective abortion. During the 1984 presidential campaign when questions of vice-presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro's Catholicism and its seeming conflict with her support of abortion-rights were conspicuous in the media, then New York Governor Mario Cuomo undertook to give the tolerance argument intellectual respectability. He tried to furnish a philosophical foundation for Ferraro's stance. Cuomo failed. For one cannot appeal to the fact that we live in a pluralistic society, as Cuomo maintained, when the very question of who is part of that society (that is, whether or not it includes fetuses) is itself the point under dispute. Cuomo lost the argument because he begged the question.

Although many of us may not agree with abortion opponents, let us use our imagination and try to understand them. For one thing, it makes no sense to tell prolife activists, as they are sometimes told by prochoice activists, that "you have a right to believe what you want to believe about the fetus" and that "you don't have to get abortions if you don't want to." Imagine if you believed, as abortion opponents do, that a class of persons were being killed by methods which include dismemberment, suffocation, and burning, wouldn't you be perplexed if someone tried to ease your outrage by telling you that you didn't have to participate in the killings if you didn't want to? That's exactly what abortion opponents hear when prochoicers tell them "Don't like abortion, don't have one" or "I'm prochoice, but personally opposed." In the mind of the abortion opponent, this is like telling an abolitionist, "Don't like slavery, don't own one," or telling Dietrich Bonhoffer, "Don't like the holocaust, don't work in a concentration camp." Certainly abortion opponents may be totally wrong, absolutely misguided, or terribly misled in their view of the fetus and the moral status of abortion. But the tolerance argument does not address this.

In what is probably the most quoted passage from Roe v. Wade, Justice Harry Blackmun writes: "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate."

But Blackmun's opinion is not an example of judicial neutrality, for it is requiring the state to leave the choice of pregnancy termination solely to the discretion of pregnant women. And thus, it is taking a position on fetal personhood. It is affirming that the fetus is not worthy of state protection and therefore can be discarded without requiring any public justification whatsoever.

Whatever one may think of this public policy, it is certainly not a neutral one.

Imagine it is the 19th-century and the Court, confronted with the issue of enslaving African-Americans, delivers this opinion: "We need not resolve the difficult question of whether blacks are human persons. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate." Suppose that the Court on that basis allowed white Americans to own blacks as property. Although the Court would be making a verbal denial of taking any position on this issue, the allowance of slavery would for all intents and purposes be morally equivalent to taking a side on the issue, namely, that blacks are not human persons. Likewise, the Court's verbal denial of taking a position on fetal personhood is contradicted by its conclusion that that fetuses are not persons under the constitution.

At the end of the day, the appeal to neutrality to support abortion rights is not neutral at all, but presupposes a partisan view of the nature of things as well as who is a member of the human community. Although put forth by its proponents as an alternative to sectarian squabbling, when unpacked, this perspective is in root and flower just as sectarian.

Originally published in The Covenant Syndicate, January 19, 1998, vol. 2, no. 79.
For more information about The Covenant Syndicate, contact David Hall at [email protected].

About the Author

Dr. Beckwith is Associate Professor of Church-State Studies, and Associate Director of the J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University, where he is also associate editor of the Journal of Church & State. A 2002-03 Research Fellow in the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions in the Politics Department at Princeton University, he currently serves on Princeton's James Madison Program Council on Moral and Political Thought. He writes on law and ethics, political philosophy, abortion, evolution, Mormonism, and moral relativism. You can also read Dr. Beckwith's books: Politically Correct Death and co-authored with Greg Koukl, Relativism.
0 Replies
 
dadothree
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 04:04 am
Proabortion/prochoice
This is my first time here so I'll trust that you will excuse me if I step on anyones toes.
Your discussion of prochoice vs proabortion labels ignores some very important points. As I am very prolife, they are perhaps more apparent to me than to some of you.
First, if someone supports embryonic stem cell research and the destruction of these embryos, then they are not merely prochoice, they are in fact proabortion.
Second, there have been cases where the mother wanted to keep her baby but was denied her right to choose. Laci and Conner Peterson being a recent example. Another I believe was in Wisconsin. A married man had an affair and the other woman became pregnant. His wife then beat the mistress causing the baby to die. Abortion advocates protested the district atty decision to prosecute the wife for killing the baby. Since the pregnant woman was denied her right to choose to have her baby, those abortion advocates cannot be called prochoice. They are more accurately referred to as proabortion.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 08:43 am
McGentrix wrote:
Proabortion - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

Antiabortion - Opposed to abortion.


Pro-choice - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

I shall choose my terminology; you can choose yours.

Second time in a week I get to use this phrase: Never argue nomenclature with a pedant; it wastes your time and annoys the pedant.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 08:47 am
Re: Proabortion/prochoice
dadothree wrote:
First, if someone supports embryonic stem cell research and the destruction of these embryos, then they are not merely prochoice, they are in fact proabortion.

This assumes that all stem cells come from aborted fetuses. This is false.

dadothree wrote:
Second, there have been cases where the mother wanted to keep her baby but was denied her right to choose. Laci and Conner Peterson being a recent example. Another I believe was in Wisconsin. A married man had an affair and the other woman became pregnant. His wife then beat the mistress causing the baby to die. Abortion advocates protested the district atty decision to prosecute the wife for killing the baby. Since the pregnant woman was denied her right to choose to have her baby, those abortion advocates cannot be called prochoice. They are more accurately referred to as proabortion.

They are more accurately referred to as "criminals" or "psychopaths." You have not shown any link between their political views on abortion and their actions.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 08:48 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
There's a difference between being "pro" something and being a raving lunatic on the streets.


Unless, of course, you are "pro-being-perceived-as-a-raving-lunatic." This is the exception that proves your rule. Very Happy
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 08:55 am
DrewDad wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Proabortion - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

Antiabortion - Opposed to abortion.


Pro-choice - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

I shall choose my terminology; you can choose yours.

Second time in a week I get to use this phrase: Never argue nomenclature with a pedant; it wastes your time and annoys the pedant.


How does that make you feel?
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 10:32 am
McGentrix wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Proabortion - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

Antiabortion - Opposed to abortion.


Pro-choice - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

I shall choose my terminology; you can choose yours.

Second time in a week I get to use this phrase: Never argue nomenclature with a pedant; it wastes your time and annoys the pedant.


How does that make you feel?


Like I get into discussions with a lot of pedantic people hung up on terminology.

Plus I think the phrase is pretty funny.

So I feel pretty good. How about you?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 10:43 am
I feel indifferent about it. I would discuss it further with you, but I do not wish to annoy you.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 10:52 am
I would guess that in 90% of the cases which ever come up and it might be closer to 98%, I'd advise people not to choose abortion. Nonetheless I am totally convinced that trying to make a legal or political issue out of abortion causes more grief than it prevents and that time, money, and energy would be vastly better spent working to convince people not to have abortions than trying to outlaw them.

I also have no doubt that the democrat party would have died a natural death 25 years ago other than for this one issue and that in particular the eight years of gangsterism of the Clinton regime would have been avoided. In fact, I once had a lady marine I was talking to while lifting weights in the gym, and this was one of the ones who actually looked like a soldier of some sort, tell me she'd gnaw one of her arms or legs off before ever voting for a republican and you can believe that the issue behind that was the idea of the government ever telling her when she had to bear children. Basically, the only thing I've ever seen this issue do in my lifetime is to allow vermin to win elections over good and decent candidates.

Part of the problem involves logical conundrums. Trying to outlaw abortion leads to a logical morass which is basically insoluble. Even if you were to outlaw abortion, the vast majority of people believe there have to be exceptions in cases of rape and one or two other instances, nonetheless "right to life" is logically an all or nothing proposition. In other words, our laws do not distinguish born people on the basis of their conception or birth and, likewise, you'd think that if any unborn child has a right to life which would supercede its mother's right to control her own body, then the unborn child of the rapist would have the same right. I've never spent a minute of my life being a woman, nonetheless I have to imagine that being told that it was my legal duty to bear children for the benefit of a rapist would be the sort of thing I'd be angry enough to kill people over.

Like I say, the time, money, and energy would be vastly better spent convincing people not to have them.

http://www.gov.yu/cwc/images/rakicmilica1.JPG

This was Milica Rakic, at three years of age when NATO bombs killed her, she was possibly Slick Clinton's youngest female victim. In 1999 American and NATO militaries bombed a totally innocent slavic orthodox Christian nation into the stone age for 80 consecutive days in order to take a totally credible rape allegation against Clinton off the front pages of our newspapers. If the democrat party had died in 1980, as it would have other than for this one stupid issue of abortion rights vs right2life, Milica Rakic would be alive.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 10:55 am
Slick Willie owns you, Snake...from the top of your head to the tip of your toes.

In any case, Bill Clinton was a better president than the guy now in the White House...by a factor of thousands.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 11:03 am
Bill Clinton was and is a criminal and a pervert, and a political party which goes to the wall for a guy like that is not legitimate. The only happy ending I see in this picture anywhere at all would be for the system to be rearranged somehow or other so as to allow some third party to rise up and replace the dems. The democrat party clearly belongs in the rubbish heap of history along with the whigs, the tories, and the society for the restoration of the Hohenzollern monarchy.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Dec, 2004 11:04 am
what color is the sky in your world?
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