Christian and Pro-Choice

Proabortion - Favoring the legalization of abortion.

Antiabortion - Opposed to abortion.

Right out of Websters.

So, which is it?

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ye110man wrote:

Nobody is "pro-abortion." Nobody likes it. The real distinction is in whether or not you believe that abortion is morally justifiable.

I am. I not only support the right to abort but I wish it were more common. I wish it were subsidized by all the world's governments so that any woman can get them for free.

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I agree, to a certain extent. I think that abortions should be universally available, but I question the wisdom of governments handing them out for free. I would hate to see women using abortions frivolously as birth control. Free government operations would foster this sort of behavior, and would cost the taxpayers money. IMO sex education would accomplish the same ends.

There are so many people concerned with the fate of embryos, but give little thought about what happens after birth. An aborted embryo is a far better scenario than an abused child. When women have abortions it is usually because they are neither emotionally nor financially equipped to be parents. These people should not have children!

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I used to hate abortions. I even used to distribute literature against it.

But I've seen some children's lives in nations in which it is illegal. If I were some of those children I'd rather be dead.

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I don't know about Christians, but God apparently has no problem with abortions. At least 10% of all pregnancies in the world end in natural miscarriages, also known in some circles as "acts of God".

You would never know it from the drum beating of anti-abortionist activists, but abortion numbers have been declining in the United States since 1994 and the trend shows no sign of reversing.

Elective abortion can be reduced even further through better education, more economic equality and opportunity, and social compassion- which can be provided even by Christians, if they are willing to follow the example of Jesus instead of the pinheads who use the churches to promote their own fantasys about "family values" in the "good old days". Outlawing abortion will simply make a lot of unscrupulous people rich while shutting the doors that have opened since people have been forced to confront the subject openly and honestly.

Sorry if it makes me appear gutless, but I am anti-abortion AND pro-choice, because I think we need to address the real issues instead of sweeping them under the rug with legal "solutions" that didn't work for alcohol, arent working with drug abuse, and won't work with unwanted pregnancies either.

I'm not a Christian, but if I was, I would have the same opinion.

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ye110man wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Murder has a specific meaning. It is the unlawful, premeditated taking of a human life by another human being.

Abortion is NOT unlawful.

It is not murder -- no matter how much anti-abortion proponents want to describe it as such.

So the Jews weren't murdered during the holocaust? But if you have a problem with calling it murder then let's call it killing.

If you want to call it killing -- call it killing. But if you want to call it murder, I'll call to your attention to the fact that you are incorrect for the reasons I gave.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And...I mention again: How does anyone know for sure that their God didn't intend for the abortion to occur -- that it was not their God's plans for that particular soul?

You'd be correct if God told the woman to get an abortion. But I don't think any Christian would argue that killing for self-benefit is part of his plan.

Who really cares what "any Christian" would argue? And who cares that you think your god would handle things in a different way?

The question I asked was how anyone could know for sure that their god didn't decide on the abortions. And the correct answer to that question is that no one does know.

You people are all arguing that in order to be "saved" you must lead lives that eventually get you there.

For all you know, your god sees that so many of you are not making it -- he may very well decide to "save" a few souls by having them die before they do any of the myriad things that seem to displease him.

If these fetuses really are complete living human beings -- as you seem to be insisting they are -- they have those souls you are always talking about. And the souls apparently go straight off to heaven to enjoy all of eternity with that god of yours.

So just what is the big goddam deal? The get a free ticket to paradise. And all they lose are a few years on this planet -- and the opportunity to end up in Hell.

Fact is, every time on of you fanatics "intervenes" in one of these abortion matters -- you may not only be thwarting the intentions of yourgod -- you may end up consigning the "soul" you saved to Hell for all of eternity instead of heaven.

So why don't you discuss this for a bit, Ye? It could be fun.

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They are free here, Phoenix - and I see little evidence of this fostering ANYTHING - except less unwanted children. If they were not free, this would likely cut off access to the very demographic group least able to deal with unwanted children.

Most women - including very young ones - struggle with the decision - even with pregnancies conceived in rape and sexual abuse situations. In fact, I would have seen more teenagers being anti-abortion for themselves and others than I would see anti-abortion older women - prolly because lots of teenagers think of babies as little dolls who will love them.

Abortion has been available free here since the seventies.

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McGentrix wrote:

I am pro-abortion. The whole Pro-choice thing seems silly. You are either for abortions, or you are against abortions.

"I am against abortion, but believe a woman should be able to make her own choices"

Make a decision. You are either for it, or not.

This is so ill-conceived, McG, I'm surpised even you could come up with it.

Let me do this slowly:

If a person is an advocate of allowing a woman to have a choice in whether or not to continue a pregnancy -- the person is PRO-CHOICE.

The person can consider abortion to be an abomination -- and taking the stance of allowing the woman to have a choice does not make him/her PRO-ABORTION.

The term pro-choice is not silly -- but I cannot say the same for this post of yours.

By the way, a person can be pro-choice -- and be pro-life at the same time. The idea of the anti-choice advocates hijacking the term "pro-life" is particularly hilarious, considering how many of them have absolutely no problem with lives being snuffed out via war or execution.

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Re: Christian and Pro-Choice

ye110man wrote:

I was thinking about this a lot lately and really can one be Christian AND pro-choice? And if not can you really blame a Christian for being pro-life?

Christians, and most religions for that matter, believe that life begins at conception. Then that person would want to protect its right to life as it would protect any human being. That would include wanting to outlaw abortion by any means necessary.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. You're a person that believes that life begins at birth and all born humans should have the right to life. For whatever reason the society you live in says that life begins at age 1 so they grant women the right to abort their babies before then. What would your position be in that situation?

I'm not suggesting that pro-lifers should take the law into their own hands. But can you really blame them for protesting outside abortion clinics and working to try to change the laws?

The answer is simple: Christianity itself will change to mean whatever Christians think it should mean. When social or political trends change, then the Christian religion will just change with them. New 'intrepretations' of the Bible will allow people to get around even the biggest moral taboo's. A few hundred years ago women were not even allowed to read the Bible or speak in Church - because of clearly sexist passages in the Bible which are now dismissed through lengthy and elaborate 'intrepretations.' Similarly, Bible passages which supported the subjucation of non-believers for centuries are now dismissed. A more current example would be the gay rights movement withen the Church - which has its own intrepretation of anti-gay passages.

When pro-choice becomes the status quo, new intrepretations or loopholes in the Bible will be 'discovered' to allow abortion. For example, one poster has already stated that iot depends of when exactly God brethes life into the fetus.

The idea that religion provides some kind of moral code that can be discussed and adhered to is ridiculous. That is why I find your entire question to be absurd. Recognize religious morality for what it is - a reflection of society; a view of right and wrong that changes with every generation to conform to whatever society deems acceptable.

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My understanding is that in days of old, the church (meaning the catholic church) was not fussed especially about abortion if it was performed before "quickening" of the foetus in the womb.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
I am pro-abortion. The whole Pro-choice thing seems silly. You are either for abortions, or you are against abortions.

"I am against abortion, but believe a woman should be able to make her own choices"

Make a decision. You are either for it, or not.

This is so ill-conceived, McG, I'm surpised even you could come up with it.

Let me do this slowly:

If a person is an advocate of allowing a woman to have a choice in whether or not to continue a pregnancy -- the person is PRO-CHOICE.

The person can consider abortion to be an abomination -- and taking the stance of allowing the woman to have a choice does not make him/her PRO-ABORTION.

The term pro-choice is not silly -- but I cannot say the same for this post of yours.

By the way, a person can be pro-choice -- and be pro-life at the same time. The idea of the anti-choice advocates hijacking the term "pro-life" is particularly hilarious, considering how many of them have absolutely no problem with lives being snuffed out via war or execution.

O-k-a-y...if we are going to take it slow so that you can understand, let me slow down for you.

You can be pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

You can be pro-choice or anti-choice.

If you are pro-choice, but anti-abortion, you are a hypocrite. Much the same you would be if you were anti-choice, but pro-abortion. If you are anti-abortion for yourself, why would you advocate abortions (making you pro-abortion) for others? If you are NOT anti-abortion, then what the hell are you?

Do you follow me on this now Frank?

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Quote:

If you are pro-choice, but anti-abortion, you are a hypocrite. Much the same you would be if you were anti-choice, but pro-abortion. If you are anti-abortion for yourself, why would you advocate abortions (making you pro-abortion) for others? If you are NOT anti-abortion, then what the hell are you?

McGentrix- Problem is, you aren't a woman. When abortion became legal, and the arguments began, I thought about it for a long, long time. The conclusion that I came to was that I was pro-choice. I believed that a woman had the right to choose whether to terminate a pregnancy, continue it and keep the child, or give the child up for adoption.

Personally, I believed that I would not want to abort except if it were absolutely necessary for my life and/or health. And that was MY CHOICE. Thankfully, I never had to make that decision.

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So you are pro-abortion then.

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McGentrix wrote:

O-k-a-y...if we are going to take it slow so that you can understand, let me slow down for you.

You can be pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

You can be pro-choice or anti-choice.

If you are pro-choice, but anti-abortion, you are a hypocrite.

I am sure that absurdity actually makes sense to you -- but I am hoping you are simply being hard-headed.

One can easily despise abortion -- but feel that the right of a woman to make a choice on her own should trump that hatred -- so the person who despises abortion but champions the right of a woman to make that decision for herself can indeed be anti-abortion but pro-choice AND NOT BE A HYPOCRITE. There is complete consistency there -- and you'd see it if you opened your eyes.

I despise American conservatism with every fiber of my body -- but am a devoted advocate of free-speech. The fact that I would fight to ensure conservatives get an opportunity to tout their swill will at the same time hating what they have to say -- DOES NOT MAKE ME A HYPOCRITE. There is complete consistency there. (By the way, you can can substitute Nazism or Klanism for American conservatism in that paragraph, and the same notion holds.)

Quote:

Much the same you would be if you were anti-choice, but pro-abortion. If you are anti-abortion for yourself, why would you advocate abortions (making you pro-abortion) for others? If you are NOT anti-abortion, then what the hell are you?

This is so lame it doesn't even deserve a reply.

Quote:

Do you follow me on this now Frank?

Yes, McG. I am still hoping you are being hard-headed. I'd hate to think you are actually as illogical as your posting indicates.

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Quote:

So you are pro-abortion then.

McGentrix- I thought that I made myself eminently clear. I am pro-choice. Abortion is one of the choices. If that makes me pro-abortion, in your mind, so be it!

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
So you are pro-abortion then.

McGentrix- I thought that I made myself eminently clear. I am pro-choice. Abortion is one of the choices. If that makes me pro-abortion, in your mind, so be it!

I was going to joke that I object to the use of the word "mind" in this context, but I guess it would be inappropriate, so I won't.

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One is a medical issue, the other is a social issue.

Being pro-choice is fine. but, be pro-abortion too. Or be anti-abortion. Pick one. It's easy. You say " I am pro-abortion!" or "I am Anti-abortion!" See? It's easy to say without the added verbiage and discussion of being pro-choice or anti-choice.

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McGentrix- Abortion is a terribly complicated issue, which you are attempting to boil down into simplistic terms. I think that very few women subject themselves to one frivolously. It is not a matter of, "Oh, I think that I will have sex. If I become pregnant, I'll just terminate the pregnancy".

Maybe if you could think past the ultra religious rhetoric, and think in terms of REAL people, and the reasons women have abortions, the answer would be much clearer for you.

This is my last word on the subject!

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McGentrix wrote:

One is a medical issue, the other is a social issue.

Being pro-choice is fine. but, be pro-abortion too. Or be anti-abortion. Pick one. It's easy. You say " I am pro-abortion!" or "I am Anti-abortion!" See? It's easy to say without the added verbiage and discussion of being pro-choice or anti-choice.

Quite honestly, McGentrix, I have never heard anyone but you ever claim to be pro-abortion.

I have no idea of what is clouding your mind on this -- but that is your problem.

One side describes itself as pro-choice -- the other as pro-life.

In order to derogate the other side -- the pro-choice people sometimes refer to the other side as the anti-choice side -- and the pro-life crowd uses pro-abortion or anti-life as an insult.

But I honestly have NEVER heard any other person besides you use the term "pro-abortion" to describe him/herself.

Frankly, I think it is idiotic for you to do so, but there apparently is nothing in the A2K TOS that prevents you from doing that.

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So McG, since you are "pro-abortion" do you run around in the streets looking for pregnant women and try to talk them into having an abortion?

Your advocating of the use of the term "pro-abortion" based on one dictionary definition ignores all of the social baggage that goes with the term.

The common usage has little to do with legalization and everything to do with the act and I doubt there are many people out there that would run around encouraging people to have more abortions.

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Christian and Pro-Choice

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