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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 04:04 am
Quote:
Posted on Wed, Jan. 21, 2004
CIA warns of Iraq civil war
By WARREN P. STROBEL and JONATHAN S. LANDAY
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Tens of thousands of Shiite Muslims march through Baghdad carrying portraits of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani and other clerics. They demand a fair election process for Iraq. TOM PENNINGTON, Fort Worth Star-Telegram

WASHINGTON - CIA officers in Iraq are warning that the country may be on a path to civil war, current and former U.S. officials said Wednesday, starkly contradicting the upbeat assessment that President Bush gave in his State of the Union address.

The CIA officers' bleak assessment was delivered verbally to Washington this week, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the classified information involved.

The warning echoed growing fears that Iraq's Shiite majority, which has until now grudgingly accepted the U.S. occupation, could turn to violence if its demands for direct elections are spurned.

Meanwhile, Iraq's Kurdish minority is pressing its demand for autonomy and shares of oil revenue.

"Both the Shiites and the Kurds think that now's their time," said one intelligence officer. "They think that if they don't get what they want now, they'll probably never get it. Both of them feel they've been betrayed by the United States before."

These dire scenarios were discussed at meetings this week by Bush, his top national security aides and the chief U.S. administrator in Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, said a senior administration official, who requested anonymity.

Another senior official said the concerns over a possible civil war weren't confined to the CIA but are "broadly held within the government," including by regional experts at the State Department and National Security Council.

Top officials are scrambling to save the U.S. exit strategy after concluding that Iraq's most powerful Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al Husseini al Sistani, is unlikely to drop his demand for elections for an interim assembly that would choose an interim government by June 30.

Bremer would then hand over power to the interim government.

The CIA hasn't yet put its officers' warnings about a potential Iraqi civil war in writing, but the senior official said he expected a formal report "momentarily."

"In the discussion with Bremer in the last few days, several very bad possibilities have been outlined," he said.

Bush, in his State of the Union address on Tuesday, insisted that an insurgency against the U.S. occupation, conducted primarily by minority Sunni Muslims who enjoyed power under Saddam Hussein, "will fail, and the Iraqi people will live in freedom."

"Month by month, Iraqis are assuming more responsibility for their own security and their own future," the president said.

Bush didn't directly address the crisis over the Shiites' political demands.

Shiites, who dominate the regions from Baghdad south to the borders of Kuwait and Iran, comprise some 60 percent of Iraq's 25 million people.

Several U.S. officials acknowledged that Sistani is unlikely to be "rolled," as one put it, and as a result Bremer's plan for restoring Iraqi sovereignty and ending the U.S. occupation by June 30 is in peril.
[...]


Continuation
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 02:24 pm
Gels, The latest info is that Sistani is willing to discuss how the next election should be considered. There might be some hope for a peaceful resolution.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 02:48 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Gels, The latest info is that Sistani is willing to discuss how the next election should be considered. There might be some hope for a peaceful resolution.

It'sall up to George, and he only has one viable choice. ..democracy ..... get out of the wayandlet em vote.. With his power I thiink Sistani can guaranty no trouble at the polls.
They should stop trying to figure out why it can't be done and figure out how to do it . our kids are dying while Bush worries abou how to steal anoher election.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 02:51 pm
I agree. But GWBush keeps getting away with "it's for the American People." How he's able to sell that malarky leaves me to believe he can sell almost anything.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 03:18 pm
The main problem is that Sistani does not speak for the Kurds or the Sunnis. The country should be divided up into 3 states with a state run government that answers to a representative central government.

That's the only way to keep Iraq from escalating into a civil war.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 04:05 pm
McGentrix, I was thinking the very same thing this morning. Perhaps four states? But they would be so different ethnically and so culturally divided that having them overseen by a central or national government might be difficult. Perhaps a small federal government and strong state governments?

What really bothers me is that GWB is determined for political reasons to exit by 30 June -- even Paul Bremmer says that is non-negotiable, and guess who's standing on his head? Sistani might compromise too much if he is waltzed around by the UN and the US, and decide that he better give in or lose everything. A hasty retreat would be much worse for us, and for the Iraqis, than a careful exit even if it takes months longer.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 04:52 pm
It's for the Iragis to decide .... after thirty years of no say it is a good thing to have someone to guide them out of the dessert. First and foremost they must be Iraqis that happen to have differing beliefs .... Kurd, Suni, and Shia and in that fashion avoid theocracy.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 04:59 pm
WHOA

Quote:

Iran 'initiated 9/11 attacks'

22 January 2004

HAMBURG - The Iranian intelligence service was the initiator of the 11 September 2001 suicide-jet attacks on New York and Washington, according to a defector quoted Thursday by German police at the Hamburg terrorist trial.

One Federal Crime Office interrogator said he had taken down a statement in Berlin on Monday from a former Iranian agent who insisted that Iran had employed Saudi radical Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network to carry out the attacks.

The defector could not appear himself in court because he had been promised anonymity, two police officers told the trial of accused plotter Abdel-Ghani Mzoudi, a Moroccan student who lived in Hamburg and was friends with three of the four suicide pilots.

The shock claim emerged on the day when a verdict had been scheduled. The prosecution asked for the delay to hear the new evidence. The end of the trial may be delayed for weeks.

The defector, who stated he had fled Iran in July 2001, two months before the attacks, claimed ultimate responsibility lay with a man named Saif al-Adel, who was an official in Iran of Hezbollah, a radial Shiiite organization with close links to Iranian intelligence.

According to the defector, "Department 43" of Iranian intelligence was created to plan and conduct terror attacks, and mounted joint operations with al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden's son, Saad bin Laden, had made repeated consultative visits to Iran.

According to the unnamed agent, Mzoudi too had visited Iran for three months, though the agent said he had never seen him, and did not know at what point in time the visit took place.

The claim runs directly counter to the received wisdom about the attacks: that they were conducted by young Sunni Moslems loyal to Osama bin Laden, a radical Saudi with ideas rooted in his country's Wahabi brand of Islam. Iran's Islam is the opposed Shiite variety.

The 28-year-old police witness said the defector claimed to have first received information about Mzoudi by e-mail after his defection and from "other Iranian intelligence sources".

The defector alleged that following the 11 December release of Mzoudi from trial custody, the sources told him they believed Mzoudi had only been released so that he could be tailed by western investigators hoping he would lead them to other terrorists.

"That is why al-Qaeda is going to liquidate Mzoudi," the defector was said to have stated.

The defector also declared that immediately after fleeing Iran, he had approached CIA station officers at the U.S. embassy in Azerbaijan, a former Soviet republic adjoining Iran, to warn them attacks were planned.

"He wrote a five-page letter stating that something would happen on 10 or 11 September without precisely delineating what it could be," said the police witness.

The man claimed he had been passing information to the CIA since 1992 and had been promised USD 1.2 million in payment, but had never received the promised money after his defection. He had therefore resolved to sell information to the Germans or French.

"He says he wants to negotiate terms for further cooperation with the federal prosecutor general's office," he said. That prosecutor, assisted by the Federal Crime Office, heads Germany's fight against terrorism.

A second police officer, aged 29, said he found the claims of the defector were "not unrealistic", given what Germany know of the structures of the Iranian intelligence service. But the court was unable to establish more about the credibility of the defector.

The policeman said he did not know why the defector had waited so long to come forward with such explosive information.

Presiding judge Klaus Ruehle pressed both police officers to offer their personal impressions of the man they interrogated.

"It is noticeable that you are both very cautious every time we ask for an assessment of this witness," the judge said to them.

Federal prosecutors suddenly announced Wednesday they had new evidence, more than a week after closing arguments by both sides. The court had been widely expected to pronounce Mzoudi acquitted on Thursday.

Federal prosecutor Walter Hemberger said Thursday that though he had applied for a 30-day extension of the trial, "I don't think we will need the full 30 days." He said a week or two would be enough to weigh the Iranian's credibility.

Mzoudi is accused of assisting in more than 3,000 murders and of being a member of Egyptian student Mohammed Atta's terrorist organization in Hamburg. The state contends Mzoudi must have known what his close friends were planning and was therefore a conspirator.

Prosecutors have demanded he go to jail for 15 years, like Mounir al-Motassadeq, another Moroccan, who was convicted in Hamburg in February last year. But judges freed Mzoudi on December 11 after earlier hearsay evidence relayed by the Federal Crime Office.

In that instance, a person thought to be self-confessed plotter Ramzi bin al-Shibh said Mzoudi had not been privy to the conspiracy.

German trial procedure allows such hearsay evidence, which would be prohibited under the Anglo-American legal tradition. Judges said the second-hand statement they attributed to bin al-Shibh created reasonable doubt about Mzoudi's guilt.

Hezbollah is a militant Shiite movement with Iranian and Lebanese branches.

After the 11 September attacks, US diplomats are alleged to have put out feelers to the Lebanese branch of Hezbollah, offering a truce with the anti-US group in exchange for all the Shiite group knew about the activities of rival Sunni terrorists.

Hezbollah's spiritual leadership claimed in late 2001 they had received such approaches, but denounced them as an attempt to drive a deeper wedge between the two main denominations of Islam.

The US government has accused Iran of harbouring al-Qaeda operatives, but has not alleged that Iran was behind the attacks.

DPA
Subject: German news


Source
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 06:49 pm
A train ride, anyone?
*****************
Riding the Crazy Train
January 22, 2004
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON -- Whoa! That was quite the steroid-infused
performance. Who's the guy's political consultant - Russell
Crowe? He was so in-your-face, smirking his trademark
smirk, it was disturbing to think of him in charge of the
military. It's a good thing he stopped drinking and started
talking about God.

You wonder how many votes he scared off with that
testosterone festival: the taunting message, the
self-righteous geographic litany of support? The
Philippines. Thailand. Italy. Spain. Poland. Denmark.
Bulgaria. Ukraine. Romania. The Netherlands. Norway. El
Salvador.

Can you believe President Bush is still pushing the
cockamamie claim that we went to war in Iraq with a real
coalition rather than a gaggle of poodles and lackeys?

His State of the Union address took his swaggering sheriff
routine to new heights. "America will never seek a
permission slip to defend the security of our country," he
vowed.

Translation: Hey, we don't need no stinking piece of paper
to bring it on in other countries. If it feels good, we'll
do it, and we'll decide later why we did it. You lookin' at
me?

Sure, Howard Dean was also over the top when he uttered the
squeal heard round the world. With one guttural primary
primal scream, he went from Internet deity to World Wide
Wacko and remix victim, with the scream mixed in on Web
sites to punctuate Ozzy Osbourne's "Crazy Train."

Yes, Howard, you know you're in trouble when Chris Matthews
says you make him look like Jim Lehrer; when David
Letterman compares you to a hockey dad; when The New York
Post suggests you have a "God complex." (As Alec Baldwin's
twisted doctor said in "Malice": "You ask me if I have a
God complex? Let me tell you something. I am God.")

Once Michael Dukakis got in trouble when he failed to get
angry when asked how he would react if his wife were raped
and murdered.

But Dr. Dean's snarly, teeth-baring Iowa finale was so
Ross-Perot-scare-off-the-women-and-horses crazy that some
Democrats on Capitol Hill, already anxious about the
tightly wound doctor, confessed they could not imagine that
jabbing finger anywhere near The Button.

But Republicans were thrilled when Mr. Bush strutted up
onstage on Tuesday night to basically tell the country that
if you don't vote for him in November, you're giving up in
the war on terrorism. "We've not come all this way -
through tragedy, and trial and war - only to falter and
leave our work unfinished," he asserted, as if all those
Democrats racing from Iowa to New Hampshire in the middle
of the night were crying out to the voters: "Falter!
Falter!"

Dr. Dean's poll numbers are diving because people freezing
in New Hampshire think he's too hot.

President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are better at
looking cool. But their dissing the U.N. - that palace of
permission slips - and their doctrine of pre-emption are
just as hot, and so was Mr. Bush's cocky implicit defense
of the idea that if you whack one Middle East dictator, the
rest will fall in line. "Nine months of intense
negotiations involving the United States and Great Britain
succeeded with Libya, while 12 years of diplomacy with Iraq
did not," he said. "For diplomacy to be effective, words
must be credible, and no one can now doubt the word of
America."

Maybe he's right, but what about Bill Clinton's line that
unless we want to occupy every country in the world, maybe
our policy should also concentrate on making friends
instead of targets? The president and vice president like
to present a calm, experienced demeanor, but their foreign
policy is right out of the let's-out-crazy-the-bad-guys
style of Mel Gibson's cop in "Lethal Weapon" movies.

For proof of how intemperate their policy has been, compare
this year's State of the Union with last year's. Last year
it was all about Iraq's frightening weapons. This year the
only reference was to "dozens of weapons of mass
destruction-related program activities and significant
amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United
Nations."

Would Americans have supported a war to go get "program
activities?" What is a program activity? Where is the White
House speechwriters' ombudsman?


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/22/opinion/22DOWD.html?ex=1075778929&ei=1&en=a84dc5c5872c573c
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 07:12 pm
Ge, that is a pretty amazing piece. I guess all we can do is wait for it to be confirmed from some other source.

BTW, I agree with you that the Iraqis ought to be able to determine their future, but the question is HOW? No way is there any sort of unanimity in the country, no consensus, no feeling of order. No one -- even the almighty US -- can create reason and order from such chaos. It will take time and work and the will to make it happen. We must not walk away from that very difficult task; we must hang in there and guide the process until they are knowledgeable enough about any form of democracy or representative government to handle it themselves
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 07:32 pm
Kara, I agree, but it must be done through the international community. That's the only way it can be successful. Terrorists cannot continue to war against the world, but is relatively easy to continue their terrorist activities against the US. With the backing of the world community, other disenfranchised groups will look toward negotiation rather than terrorism to be heard. It seems to me the only sane solution to this madness.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 07:38 pm
Amen, c.i. But I fear that the US will not allow the UN to run the show. An alliance of international powers, represented on an overseeing authority with responsibility, would be the best way, under the aegis of the UN. We could start with reps from France, Germany, and Canado (LOL) who were wise enough to doubt war as a way to solve the problem.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:03 pm
They know quite well how to live, they just need a chance to ...
click
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:16 pm
Gels, Good history on Iraq. Thanks for sharing it. I've read most of it, but will return later to finish it. Several places in the Aegean Sea has claimed to be the "cradle of civilization," but I think the history of Iraq speaks for itself.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:23 pm
D, I know that. But have they forgotten how to do it? Iraq was cobbled together by the Brits among others, long ago. This is now. Cradle of civilization or not, we have set the cat amongst the pigeons. How do we put Humpty-Dumpty together again?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:23 pm
We had the previlidge to visit Knossos, Crete, during our cruise to the Aegean Sea in 1996. This civilization goes back 7,000BC, and we were told by our guide that it was also the "cradle of civilization." An English archaeologist, Dr Evans, founded it in the early 20th century.
http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21123a/e211wa03.html
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:32 pm
c.i., I am interested in what you say. I have never heard of any area other than the Ur Valley spoken of as the cradle of civilization. When I studied archaeology some years ago, there was not an issue of where civilization began: it was at the juncture of the Tigris and the Euphrates, in what is today Iraq.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:55 pm
Kara, As a student of archaeology, what famous and infamous sites have you visited? I know there are many places in the US with dinasours, but I'm not familiar with too many sites other than the Indian caves of Arizona and New Mexico.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 09:59 pm
B, therein lies the rub ... we help them by not interfering..

The best we can do for them is to get out. Don't you see it? Saddam tyrannized them, we are oppressing them ... allu in all there is but a thin blood red line of intent that separates us from Saddam. As more of them die being'liberated' the line grows less distinct.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 11:01 pm
Did you guys see "Frontline" tonight? It profiled Kay and the ISG.Frontline: Chasing Saddam's Weapons
0 Replies
 
 

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