THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

Bush, "Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein." That's the primary problem with his speech; it uses FEAR instead of fact and common sense. Let's see; Osama been free for how many months? Where's the WMDs that he supposedly got from Saddam? None was ever found? Isn't that an interesting FACT? How many of you think Osama would have used it if he had WMDs?

Thanks for posting the link of the 2003 speech Timber. Lets look at it in detail.


On second thoughts lets not. Bush's dissembling can wait.



Too tired right now and have a football match to watch.

Steve: "Right-thinking Americans" is the term McTag used and the reason I jumped in actually. I get tired of people thinking disagreement can only come from stupidity or ignorance. That simply isn't so.

c.i., what makes you certain that we didn't intercede in time? Do you consider it impossible that Clinton was right about the cooperative nature of the Iraqi-Al Qaeda relationship? Are you certain the weapons that Saddam definitely had were destroyed or vanished, or could some have left the country before we got there? How is it that you are certain Saddam had no WMD, when virtually every intelligence agency on earth suspected he did? How do you know the Russians were wrong when they warned us that Iraq was planning terrorist attacks on us? Why? Why won't you admit that every single piece of evidence doesn't show lies and corruption?

timber's quote, "I think there's little question where you stand, what is beyond comprehension is how or why you got yourself there." Some of us think the same thing about you.

Exactly: that's what we always say and said :wink:

c.i., how long was Ted Kozinski on the loose, or Eric Rudolph, or Adolph Eichman? Its a real world out there, and real fugitives, particularly those with vast underground support sustems and either explicit or tacit approval of national entities, aren't rounded up in 48 minutes interspersed by commercials. Where are the WMD known and catalogued as having been in Saddam's possesion for which there is no current accounting? What have you to say concerning the fact both Kay and Dulfur, along with Ritter and Blix, detailed the existence of facillities which could be switched on-demand to the production of WMD? What have you to say concerning the fact there has been no terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11? What have you to say concerning the fact oil prices have nearly doubled since "The War To Grab Cheap Oil" began?

I'm sure you have arguments and answers, or at least Talking Points, for all of those questions, but I just don't buy them. The War on Terrorism is the most significant struggle undertaken since the close of WWII, and it must and will be won by the forces arrayed against terrorism. Its going to take a while ... perhaps a generation or so, but it was brought to us, we didn't go seeking it. What we have done is take the fight to the enemy's homeland. That is where we will finish it, and finish the enemy. Civilization depends on it.

Timber, it avails us little to quote and examine choice excerpts from the scripted speeches of GWB. He has the best speechwriters available, and the best lawyers to pre-check the scripts.

Better then, to look at the actions of the administration, and the unscripted remarks of Bush and his cohorts. Plenty of material there. We are considering crimes against humanity, and gross breaches of international law.

"enemy's homeland"?

If that were truly what you were considering, you would be in support of any effort to replace a monster like Saddam with democracy. Think it through.

Don't forget, he was our mass-murdering brutal bastard until he invaded Kuwait. We funded him and supported him. Rumsfeld went with a present for him.

So we can't claim the high ground here. There is no higher moral purpose in these actions. Sheer delusion to think that there is.

And that excuses mass-murder how?

I'm delusional because I think removing a mass murderer from power will prevent him from committing further mass murder? Who's delusional?

Bill

I know that it's hard to quit a drug - but I don't hope, you started with a new one :wink:

Actually, I'm thinking very clearly Walt. I'm just not as tolerant of nonsense as usual. :wink:

I hold no brief for Pres Clinton: I mentioned the Starr investigation to illustrate how the political process in the US has been distorted and corrupted, starting with the right-wing attacks on Clinton's person and continuing with the debased Florida vote and the non-election of Bush.

Having mentioned that, I think it is a shame that American politics are being played out with the lives of innocent Iraqis. Some Democrats, I have read, want the Iraq rescue to fail so that the Bush presidency will end. I would not wish ill on the Iraqis, whatever my opinion of Bush and his works.

Now who's feigning concern for innocent Iraqis? You can't possibly think they were better off under Saddam's rule. Name the crime committed by American soldiers and then tell me you can't come with Saddamese examples that are 10 times worse. Be honest.


Your words frequently have this flavor and it is the reason we are discussing this now. When you look past all of the rhetoric, you see the basic truth. We removed a mass murdering monster from power in hopes of replacing him with a democracy. That is the bottom line.

I believe you. I don't think you would on purpose. But wishing we would leave now, is wishing something that would have a detrimental effect on the Iraqis. Wishing we had never invaded; means wishing we had left Saddam in charge. That, my friend, is wishing ill on the Iraqis. Whatever motivation Bush may have; whatever history Cheney had, whatever position Reagan took: NONE of that changes the FACT that Saddam was a monster and Iraqis are better off without him. Admit that… and perhaps you'll start to understand what's wrong with statements like this:

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

timber, That's the reason why the UN inspectors were in the process of finding and destroying any WMDs found in Iraq, but Bush wanted to start a war, and chased the inspectors out. You're asking me where those WMDs are? Get real.

Isn't that the question we all asking of Bush - that and the Al Queda/Saddam connection with 9/11. It is Bush that obfuscates and brings shame to the office of the Presidency.....

England 4, Croatia 2.

Dont you people pay attention?

'Night, Steve.
I trust your cat is unkicked tonight. Rooney was a bit special, wasn't he?
Sorry, wrong thread, but Steve started it.

Maybe we need to lighten up, and enjoy the indian summer before Pres Bush is brought before the courts.

This fall, the Metropolitan Opera is presenting an opera commemorating Bill Clinton's experiences during his eight years in the White House. Composed by Giuliani Veritas (in Italian), it was originally commissioned by Jesse Helms in conjunction with the National Endowment for the Arts:

LA BUBBA VITA, by Giuliani Veritas

Act I. The Situation: Bill Clinton has been elected President of the United
States over George Bush, the Elder. The Republicans are devastated, angry and are trying to find their way back to power. As the curtain rises on the opera, the House Republicans are meeting with Ken Starr with the object of trying to find a way to remove Clinton from the Presidency.

Opening chorale, "We Must Find a Way" (Creato grandissimo floozi scandala) is sung as a sextet. In an impressive recitative, Tom DeLay sings "Where Will We Find a Helper?" (Dredgi uppulia una Granda Bimbo).

The House Republicans exit. Paula Jones enters stage right with a mirror, singing her plaintive "Why Can't I Find a Man?" (Mia schnozola es humongo).
Tom DeLay and Newt Gingrich enter from the other wing.
They spot Paula and sing the duet "Why Not Her?" (La floozi perfecta).
They meet and take Paula to a small cafe where they hatch their plot in
hushed tones. Paula tells them of her meeting in a hotel with Clinton years earlier and how her fortunes have collapsed since then. DeLay and Gingrich offer to help. They sing the aria "Your Luck has Changed" (Nozjobbo e'rewardo).

Act II. The House Republicans reconvene with the news of Paula's revelations. They sing in jubilation "We Must Tell the World" (Fono tabloido). The rear curtain raises to reveal the Chorus of Media who sing the chorale "Tell Us More, But Only the Truth" (Sexi scandala hypo sweepi). Gingrich enters with Pat Robertson. They sing the duet "He Must Go" (Hypocriti pious crappola). Robertson offers time on his television program to expose the charges.

At the House Republicans' suggestion, Paula initiates a lawsuit. The Paula Jones scandal becomes the topic of conversation throughout the country. The Chorus of Lawyers enters from the right to sing the jubilant grand chorale "We Must do Our Duty" (Multi, multi grande moola).

Ken Starr meets with the House Republicans to plan the next steps. They sing the aria "We Will Save the Country" (Sleezi connivo, la media succisttuppo). Starr promises to convene a grand jury which will send charges to the Congress. He sings "The Truth Will Out" (Whitewater non starto, il probo la floozy epidemio). The Chorus of Lawyers sings a reprise of "We Must Do Our Duty" (Multi, multi grande moola!) as the act ends.

Act III. In Scene 1, Linda Tripp enters the stage arm in arm with Ken Starr. She is wearing a headset and singing "Monica is My Dearest Friend" (Io sono la wiccida witchi occidenta). She tells Starr about the secret tapes that she has of conversations with Monica Lewinsky. Starr takes them from her and sings "We've Got Him Now" (Presidente droppopantaloni). Starr hurries off to the Grand Jury to call Monica as a witness.

In Scene 2, Monica enters the grand jury room where the Chorus of Lawyers asks her questions. They sing the recitative "How Did It Happen?" (Panti thongo, la flashi). Monica sings the long, passionate aria "We Were Meant for Each Other" (Nonsmoko El Pruducto, Phalli symboglio).

In Scene 3, Hillary and Bill are sitting in the Lincoln Bedroom talking about the revelations about Monica. Hillary sings "I Will Stand By You" (Tu jercho estupido, io removo tu equippamento). Bill replies with "She Was the Only One" (Non conto Gennifer, Paula, piu multi bimbo forgetta). They embrace!

Act IV. Sam Donaldson is interviewing Henry Hyde in the Capitol Building. The Chorus of Lawyers hums in the background. Hyde sings the aria "We Believe in something" (Impeaccho hippi bastardo). Donaldson sings a recitative in answer, "We Want Only the truth" (Toupee eslippo). The great trial begins in the Senate. Trent Lott reacts to public opinion polls showing that the President has a 76% public approval rating by singing the poignant aria "What is Right is Not Popular" (Partia repubblico commitini suicido). The Chorus of Lawyers sings the chorale "Principles Come First" (Mi adultero non conto).
With great flourish, Henry Hyde, Bill McCullom and Tom DeLay stand before the Senate to present their case. They sing "How Can You Not Convict?" (Evidenso multi flimsioso). Finally, in a moving chorale, the Chorus of Lawyers sings "For the Good of the Nation, We Must Acquit" (Senatorios non stupido.) After the vote is announced, Henry Hyde, Tom DeLay, Trent Lott and Bill McCollum leave the Senate Chamber singing the grand quartet "We Still Know the Truth (Wasto multi millioni) as the act ends.

Epilogue. President Clinton sings the contrite aria "I Am Very Sorry" (Revengo futuro furioso) as the Chorus of Media circles him, shouting their questions. They sing "Who Will Now Believe Us?" (Publicca desgustanta es in media).

Monica Lewinsky strolls across the stage on the arm of her new literary agent, Ken Starr. They sing a stirring duet, "It is Still Not Over" (Publishi grande bucchi, conto multi, multi dollare millioni) as the curtain falls.