0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 02:58 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
At first I thought invading Iraq was a cynical and criminal act for the benefit of America and Israel.


SUPPOSE

"Invading Iraq was a cynical and criminal act for the benefit of America and Israel."

That anticipated benefit was nothing more than achieving self-defense.

America didn't give a damn about the welfare of all the other nations of the world. It cared only for its own welfare and the welfare of Israel.

IMPLICATION

How dare America think only of its own and Israel's self-defense! Selfish beasts?

How dare America think that its own and Israel's right to self-defense exceeded the right of other nations to their own self-defense?

How dare America not first obtain agreement from the other nations before defending itself according to methods of its own selection and design?

ANALYSIS

Rational?! Shocked
Irrational?! Shocked
Accurate?! Shocked
Hyperbole?! Shocked
Smart?! Shocked
Dumb?! Shocked

You decide.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 10:20 pm
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 11:46 pm
Well. What a week this has been.

Prisoners humiliated, tortured and sodomised, and the pictures shown all round the world. British soldiers were involved as well as American, in separate incidents.

52 senior diplomats write an open letter to Tony Blair telling him that the attack on Iraq is illegal, and that his strategy, if you can dignify it with such a term, is counter-productive and wrong.

Saddam's Ba'athist general hired to lead reformed Iraqi army contingent in Fallujah, while Americans withdraw. Iraqis consequently claim a victory.

More heavy tanks and more troops are to be sent to the region.

Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Libya and others) shown on their TVs what western-style democracy would mean for them.

Dismay in London and Washington.

Could things really get any worse, nation-building-wise?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 11:52 pm
McTag, I'm not sure why it's continually called "nation-building" when all evidence is just the opposite. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of two long-term enemies (we're talking l-o-n-g) becoming allies to fight the country that claims they're bringing democracy to their country. It's probably a historical first that'll surely be included in history books.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2004 07:03 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Friday, April 30, 2004 ... Those Pictures... The pictures are horrific. ...


Nothing can justify ... nothing can excuse that behavior of ... our .... (I'm ashamed to even write the word) ... troops. I hope they're imprisoned immediately for trial and the guilty left there for life.

Now is the time for that plebiscite I've been recommending.

Now is the time to remind us again what our invasion in Iraq was there to fix. Now is the time to decide whether we too are too corrupted by our fears and the hatred that fear breeds to adequately fix anything; whether we too are too corrupted to help Iraqies and ourselves rectify this mess; whether we too have evolved into our enemies; whether we can learn from the consequences of our actions and rectify what we have done; whether we are so weak as to merely turn away from this evil mess that is almost as evil as the one we first found; whether we have the stomach to face and repair ourselves. ....
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2004 12:43 pm
And the costs for this war run and run ...

Cost of War

N.B.: Figures are compiled from Congressional Budget Office data and comparisons can be made with money spent on education, housing and health. Information on how the site is compiled is available!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2004 12:49 pm
People (that includes me) keep saying we must be successful in Iraq. However, there is evidence that that may not be the best option.
*****************************
Iraqis Hail Falluja 'Victory' as U.S. Changes Tack

55 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Fadel Badran

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Soldiers of the old Iraqi army led by one of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s generals patrolled Falluja on Saturday, a year after George W. Bush declared "mission accomplished" in ousting the Iraqi regime.

Cries of "victory over the Americans" echoed from minarets and gunmen celebrated in the streets under the green banner of Islam and Saddam-era Iraqi flags. Thousands who had fled a month of heavy fighting streamed back to their homes after U.S. Marines pulled back from their siege positions.

Mired in a confrontation that spilled blood on both sides and outraged Iraqi and Arab opinion, U.S. commanders withdrew to more distant positions on Friday. Security was entrusted to police and a new force of ex-soldiers under General Jasim Mohamed Saleh, formerly of Saddam's feared Republican Guard.

U.S. officers said their troops were still ready to storm the city if needed but Marine commander Lieutenant-General James Conway said Saleh's 1st Battalion of the Falluja Brigade would tackle the insurgents and the foreign fighters aiding them.

"They have a plan," he said at a base just outside the city. "They understand our view that these people must be killed or captured. They have not flinched and their commander has said as much to his assembly of officers within the last 36 hours."

Saleh's offer came just in time, said Conway, who conceded some in his new force may have fought the Marines over the past month. "It got to the point that we thought there were no options that would preclude an attack," he said.

But some Iraqis, impatient with an occupation that brought them pictures this week of U.S. and British troops abusing detainees, see a military debacle.

"The city's defenders are celebrating," yelled one man as a group of gunmen in civilian clothes raised green banners and rifles aloft on a street to acclaim the "defeat" of the Marines.

A uniformed member of Saleh's 1,000-strong force, looked on.

On foot and in civilian four-wheel-drive vehicles, Saleh's men patrolled the city, which was once loudly loyal to Saddam.

"EYES WIDE OPEN"

Americans, deciding whether to re-elect President Bush (news - web sites) in November, may also wonder where the Iraq (news - web sites) venture is taking them after the bloodiest month for U.S. troops since the war began.

Bush, in his weekly radio address, said that despite "the serious and continuing challenges," Iraqi life was improving.

"Life for the Iraqi people is a world away from the cruelty and corruption of Saddam's regime," he said.

A Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman said the United States was going into the Falluja deal with its "eyes wide open," aware of the risks of dealing with the relatively unknown Saleh, whose influence over -- or indeed links with -- the insurgents are unclear.

Marine commanders say they are playing the new arrangement in Falluja by ear and may return to the city. They are still hunting the killers of four American security guards, images of whose mutilated bodies prompted the U.S. offensive a month ago.

Hammad Makhlas, returning to Falluja with his wife and five children to find windows smashed and walls damaged at his home, said: "Praise God. The most important thing is that the town's dignity has been preserved with the defeat of the Americans."


DEATH TOLL RISING

The United States turned to Saleh after failing to root out some 2,000 guerrillas dug in among 300,000 civilians. Bush's critics accuse him of wading into a Vietnam-style "quagmire."

The rising death toll is not helping Bush's re-election campaign. In all, 129 Americans were killed in action in April -- nearly a quarter of the combat toll of 541 since U.S. forces invaded in March last year. Two of those died on Saturday.

U.S. television program "Nightline" sparked controversy by devoting a show to broadcasting names and pictures of the dead.

The bloodshed in Falluja has also not helped Washington win over Iraq's Sunni Muslim minority, long dominant under Saddam. Doctors say 600 died in the siege, enraging many in the "Sunni Triangle" of towns north and west of Baghdad.

And U.S. efforts to maintain the goodwill of those Iraqis who did welcome the overthrow of Saddam's Baathist state, such as the Shi'ite majority to the south, have been hampered by the scandal over the abuse of prisoners by military jailers.

The Arab world was outraged by photographs published this week showing U.S. troops abusing detainees in Saddam's once notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

On Saturday, a London newspaper published images it said showed British troops, who control the Shi'ite south, abusing an Iraqi detainee. Britain's army chief ordered an inquiry.

Six soldiers from the British-led forces and an Iraqi policemen were wounded in a gunbattle with Shi'ite fighters loyal to cleric Moqtada al-Sadr at Amara, British officers said.

A rocket-propelled grenade was also fired at the troops after they made a number of arrests that a British spokesman said had netted large amounts of weaponry and explosives.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2004 12:55 pm
This was in today's San Jose Mercury News' Editorials and Letters from a grandmother to Bush.

"Adam was a wonderful grandson, and he was happy to serve his country. He was in ROTC in high school and I had no doubts that he would join the service when he graduated. Little did he know when he signed up for the Army over two years ago that he would be in a real-time war game. Well, the game is over now, and he is lost.

Do you feel his death is justified?

What are we liberating? We hear and see that we are supposed to be liberating Iraq. It is obvious to me that they don't want freedom. They continue to fight, and my grandson and other young men and women come home in caskets. Did he die for liberty and justice for all? I think not.

Talk to us grandmothers, President Bush, so we can explain to our younger remaining grandchildren why our grandsons and daughters are being killed every day." Dorothy Turney-Stacy, Brentwood
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2004 01:00 pm
Good link, Walter. The problem with showing the cost of this war to Bush supporters is that "they don't care." They see a "higher" purpose for this war.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:40 am
Sunday, April 18, 2004

Who is Behind the Iraq Insurgency?

April 18, 2004
Post-Gazette
Jack Kelly

Quote:
Much more is happening in Iraq right now than most of us realize. The peril is greater than most of us imagine. Things are likely to get very much better -- or very much worse -- very soon.

Iran and Syria have committed acts of war against the United States, even if their aggression isn't acknowledged by the Bush administration, or noticed by news media.

Ralph Peters, a retired military intelligence officer, reported from northern Iraq that on April 10, Iranian agents ambushed an American convoy on the road between Mosul and Akre. "The attack did not go as planned," Peters noted in his April 12 New York Post column. "Our troops responded sharply, killing two Iranians, wounding a third and capturing two more. They were carrying their identity documents."

The revolt by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr was largely financed by Iran. An Iranian defector told the London-based Arabic daily al Sharq al-Awsat that Iran has been spending $70 million a month on activities in Iraq, and has set up three training camps just across the border from Iraq for members of al Sadr's militia, the "Mehdi Army."

"Haj Saidi [allegedly the Iranian intelligence officer in charge of activities in Iraq] told al Sharq al Awsat that the Iranian presence in Iraq is not limited to the cities," the newspaper said. "Rather, it is spread throughout Iraq, from Zakho in the north to Um Qasr in the south. And the infiltration of Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the al Quds Army began long before the war, through hundreds of Iranian intelligence agents, amongst them Iraqi refugees who were expelled by Saddam Hussein in the 1970s and 1980s to Iran, allegedly because of their Iranian origin, and who infiltrated back into Iraq through the Kurdish areas that were out of Baath government control. After the war, Iranian intelligence sent its agents through the Iraq-Iran border; some of them as students and clerics, and others as belonging to the Shi'ite militias," the newspaper said in a story April 3.

"Haj Saidi also mentioned that more than 300 reporters and technicians who are working now in Iraq for television and radio networks, newspapers and other media agencies are in fact members of the al Quds Army and Revolutionary Guards intelligence units," al Sharq al Awsat said.

"The direct Iranian presence in the Shiite areas of Iraq in the political, security and economic affairs cannot be ignored any more," said another British based Arabic language daily, al-Hayat, in a story April 6. "This presence is accompanied by a vigorous Iranian effort to create bridges with different forces in Iraq." (Translations courtesy of the Middle East Media Research Institute.)

"For months, Iran has been building a secret underground network of military and intelligence cells that has put it in a position not only to challenge the United States and others, but also gradually to gain control over the reins of power after the June 30 handover," said Alireza Jafazadeh, an Iranian exile who is president of Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc.

Many of the tens of thousands of pilgrims who traveled from Iran to the holy city of Najaf in southern Iraq for Arbaeen last weekend were in fact Iranian intelligence operatives, Jafazadeh said.

Meanwhile, the Marines report that many of the "insurgents" they have killed in Fallujah are in fact Syrian. Though Iran's mullahs are militant Shiites, and Syria's Baathist regime is secular in a predominantly Sunni country, there has long been strategic cooperation between them. They jointly sponsor and succor the terrorist group Hezbollah, which operates primarily out of (Syrian-controlled) southern Lebanon.

The recent rash of kidnappings in Iraq are eerily similar to the kidnappings orchestrated by Hezbollah in Lebanon in the 1980s.

Iran is working as fast as it can to build a nuclear bomb, and the world community, in the form of the International Atomic Energy Agency, isn't doing much to restrain it.


Jack Kelly is national security writer for the Post-Gazette and The Blade of Toledo, Ohio ([email protected], 412-263-1476).
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:44 am
From the WSJ

The Seven Pillars of Chutzpah
April 28, 2004

Quote:
The standard definition of chutzpah is that of a man, who after having
killed his parents, asks the judge for leniency because he's an orphan.

But the 52 British ex-diplomats who just sent a letter to U.K. Prime
Minister Tony Blair, blasting him for supporting the U.S. policy in the
Middle East, may give a whole new meaning to the word.

These diplomats represent the decades-old Arabist foreign-policy
tradition that views the Arab world in decidedly romantic terms. The
policies that resulted pandered to extreme Arab demands, thus ensuring
that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was never solved. It allowed
despots like Saddam Hussein to become threats to regional and
international security and routinely played down the dangers of radical
Islam before and even after September 11, 2001.

So it takes some cheek that after this record of failure, these same
diplomats would now point to their alleged "expertise" and complain that
in two-and-a-half years, U.S. President George W. Bush and Prime
Minister Blair haven't yet been able to sort out all the mess created in
the Middle East over decades. But before turning to their letter, it is
worth recalling some of the advice these diplomats have given in the
past.

Let's listen to Sir Harold (Hooky) Walker, ambassador to Iraq in
1990-1991. Asked in December 1990 why he failed to forecast the Iraqi
invasion of Kuwait, he replied that recent events in East Europe had led
him to believe that "respect for international law and regard for
democracy was coming in on a great wave . . . My mindset was such that I
did not contemplate that the old 'Adam' was still there in such a
brutal, original form."

Or listen to former British ambassador to Libya, Oliver Miles. The
determined coalition action in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 brought
Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi back in from the cold last year, or
seemingly so. But let's go back to when Mr. Miles was ambassador. After
gunfire sprayed from the Libyan embassy into a crowd of Libyan
demonstrators killed a British policewoman and injured 11 demonstrators
in 1984, Britain decided to break diplomatic relations with Libya. But
Mr. Miles said that the effect of severing relations "will be a much
greater opportunity for misunderstanding between the two governments
and, as a professional diplomat, I, of course, prefer a dialogue." Of
course.

Then there is another signatory, Sir James Craig, ambassador to Saudi
Arabia from 1979 to 1984. Osama bin Laden is a Saudi and so were 15 of
the 9/11 hijackers. The Saudi royal family could certainly have done a
better job of blocking bin Laden's schemes -- by curbing his sources of
financing for example -- and might have given the West better warnings
of what he was about. But Mr. Craig is always ready to come to the
defense of the Saudi rulers. In a letter to the London Times reacting to
an article critical of the House of Saud, Mr. Craig wrote last year that
"There is a good deal of democracy in Saudi Arabia already; the King and
his advisors keep a close eye on public opinion and try to keep a step
ahead of it."

These are the experts who now complain that the coalition didn't have an
effective plan for the post-Saddam settlement -- not a very original
criticism. But listen to this: "To describe the [Iraqi] resistance as
led by terrorists, fanatics and foreigners is neither convincing nor
helpful." Really? How else would these experts describe the mutilation
of corpses, the dragging of dead bodies through the streets and setting
off bombs that killed scores of children?

Completely in line with the traditional Foreign & Commonwealth Office
image of Arabs as "noble warriors," these diplomats consider it as
"na€ve" that an Iraqi democracy could be created "however much Iraqis
may yearn" for it. Instead, they are happy to hand over Iraq to the
United Nations, to "clear up the mess."

Of course, what really triggered this letter was President Bush's
decision to support Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement
plan and Mr. Blair's approval of this step. In their letter to Mr.
Blair, the diplomats unconsciously admit their own failure: "Our dismay
at this backward step is heightened by the fact that you yourself seem
to have endorsed it, abandoning the principles which for nearly four
decades have guided international efforts to restore peace in the Holy
Land."

That's exactly it: those "principles" haven't worked for over 40 years
and these ex-diplomats are now dismayed that Messrs. Bush and Blair have
no inclination to try them out for another four decades. Mr. Bush and
Mr. Blair deserve credit for breaking with those failed policy
prescriptions. The letter writers should do everyone a favor and stay
where they are -- in retirement.

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB108310467900795194,00.html
Copyright 2004 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 09:21 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Good link, Walter. The problem with showing the cost of this war to Bush supporters is that "they don't care." They see a "higher" purpose for this war.


I don't know if according to your definition I qualify as a Bush supporter, recognzing as I do Bush's many errors. But I'll risk it.

My specific perception is that we had two tactical choices: containment and replacement.

The fundamental problem with contaiment of the Saddam State is that it allowed continuation of mass murder of Iraqi innocents and Saddam sponsorship of terrorist mass murder of worldwide innocents.

The fundamental problem with replacement of the Saddam State is that it requires huge Iraqi and coalition casualties to evolve an Iraqi republic that totally rejects the murder of innocents..

The importance to the Syrian and Iranians of retaining a mass murdering Iraqi state is evidenced by the number of Syrian and Iranian invaders willing to die to preserve that dastardly state. These people are as evil as Saddam's gang.

To me the dreadful loss of those we love to this undertaking is a horrible burden. It is no less a horrible burden to sit by and observe the murders of innocent people and not attempt to stop that. To sit by and observe is also not without its own serious risks to those we love, and, in deed, to those sitting by and observing. We all are at high risk to join those already murdered innocents in increasingly frequent and massive numbers.

We are all in the same boat. Those attempting to drill holes in our boat by continually criticising the efforts of others to stop these murders and not recommending better ways to stop these murders are certainly not helping. Such people are in fact active aiders and abettors of murderers, and are as guilty of murder as the murdering perpetrators they aid and abet.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 09:41 am
ican711nm wrote:
Those attempting to drill holes in our boat by continually criticising the efforts of others to stop these murders and not recommending better ways to stop these murders are certainly not helping. Such people are in fact active aiders and abettors of murderers, and are as guilty of murder as the murdering perpetrators they aid and abet.


My local court is "Amtsgericht Lippstadt", and the prosecutors, where you have to address, are at County Court "Staatsanwaltschaft am Landgericht Paderborn".

I can PM you the full addresses.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 10:11 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Those attempting to drill holes in our boat by continually criticising the efforts of others to stop these murders and not recommending better ways to stop these murders are certainly not helping. Such people are in fact active aiders and abettors of murderers, and are as guilty of murder as the murdering perpetrators they aid and abet.


My local court is "Amtsgericht Lippstadt", and the prosecutors, where you have to address, are at County Court "Staatsanwaltschaft am Landgericht Paderborn".

I can PM you the full addresses.


It's been said that confession is good for the soul. I hope this is true in your case too.

To simplify the process of your own rectification, I recommend you voluntarily present yourself to your County Court prosecutors and confess your crime and plead for an opportunity to make amends for it. Surely if you are adequately repentant, you will be granted some relief from the penalty you will have otherwise earned.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:25 am
Wolfie's Fuzzy Math
May 2, 2004
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

This administration is the opposite of "The Sixth Sense."

They don't see any dead people.

Beyond the president's glaring absence at military
funerals; beyond the Pentagon's self-serving ban on
photographing the returning flag-draped coffins at Dover;
beyond playing down the thousands of wounded and maimed
American troops and the thousands of hurt and dead Iraqi
civilians, now comes the cruel arithmetic of Paul
Wolfowitz.

What can you say about a deputy defense secretary so eager
to invade Iraq he was nicknamed Wolfowitz of Arabia, so
bullish to remold the Middle East he froze the State
Department out of the occupation and then mangled it, who
doesn't bother to keep track of the young Americans who
died for his delusion?

Those troops were killed while they were still trying to
fathom the treacherous tribal and religious beehive they
were never prepared for, since they thought they'd be
helping build schools and hospitals for grateful Iraqis.

Asked during a Congressional budget hearing on Thursday how
many American troops had been killed in Iraq, Mr. Wolfowitz
missed by more than 30 percent. "It's approximately 500, of
which - I can get the exact numbers - approximately 350 are
combat deaths," he said.

As of Thursday, there were 722 deaths, 521 in combat. The
No. 2 man at the Pentagon was oblivious in the bloodiest
month of the war, with the number of Americans killed in
April overtaking those killed in the six-week siege of
Baghdad last year.

This is, of course, an administration that refuses to
quantify or acknowledge the cost of its chuckleheaded
empire policies, in bodies, money, credibility in the Arab
world, reputation among our allies or the reinvigoration of
militant Muslims around the globe. Duped themselves, they
duped Americans into thinking it would be easy, paid for
with Iraqi oil. But Donald Rumsfeld's vision of showing off
a slim, agile military was always at odds with the neocons'
vision of infusing enough security into Iraq to turn it
into an instant democratic paradise.

Crushed in the collision of these two grandiose dreams are
all the smaller dreams of fallen soldiers, to raise kids
and watch baseball and grill hot dogs on the Fourth of
July.

Now things have deteriorated to the point that the
administration is pathetically begging for help from the
very people it was trying to roll over - the U.N., Saddam's
Baathist generals and the Iranians.

When Ted Koppel decided to devote his Friday "Nightline" to
showing the faces and reading the names of the men and
women killed in action, Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard
denounced it as "a stupid statement" and the conservative
Sinclair media company, one of the country's largest owners
of local stations, said it would pre-empt the program on
its ABC affiliates. Sinclair, a big Republican donor, felt
Mr. Koppel was undermining the war effort.

Bill O'Reilly suggested that CBS, by breaking the news of
the grotesque pictures of American soldiers gaily
tormenting Iraqi prisoners, had put American lives at risk.

But it's unhealthy to censor the ugly realities of war. The
real danger is when the architects of war refuse to rethink
bad assumptions, wrapping themselves in the blindly
ideological nobility of their mission.

Senator John McCain let Sinclair have it with both barrels,
noting that the public needed "to be reminded of war's
terrible costs, in all their heartbreaking detail" and
calling the pre-emption "unpatriotic." (Shouldn't John
Kerry be running as John McCain's vice president?)

Mr. Koppel told me that he neither wanted to beat the drums
for war nor "encourage flower children to come back." He
said war is "a bitter, bitter business and we need to keep
talking to each other about where the war goes from here."
The tolerance for casualties, he said, shortly before the
start of his wrenching roll call of all those baby-faced
and smiling soldiers and marines, will be in direct
relation to faith in the motivation for war.

The W.M.D. reason vanished. And, with the re-Baathification
of the de-Baathification, the American idealism rational is
not panning out.

Hiding the faces of the war dead makes the motivation seem
like saving face in an election year.

Americans won't take casualties for the credibility of the
Bush administration. That's not a good enough reason for
people to die.

E-mail: [email protected]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/opinion/02DOWD.html?ex=1084503987&ei=1&en=a2ea8d24f439f91e

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:37 am
Remember..people are "fungible." Sad
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:43 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Wolfie's Fuzzy Math
May 2, 2004
By MAUREEN DOWD ................................


ican711nm wrote:
Those attempting to drill holes in our boat by continually criticising the efforts of others to stop these murders and not recommending better ways to stop these murders are certainly not helping. Such people are in fact active aiders and abettors of murderers, and are as guilty of murder as the murdering perpetrators they aid and abet.


Maureen, it's long past time for you to start:
Quote:
recommending better ways to stop these murders


Maureen (and cicerone imposter), please give us a hint at least. How would you stop the murders of Iraqi innocents by members of al Qaeda, Baathists, Syrians, Iranians , and other terrorists?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:46 am
I've already answered this question many times in the past; you're just ignoring them. LISTEN CLOSELY: I WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED THIS WAR. I WAS AGAINST THIS WAR. THIS ADMINISTRATION DID NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF STARTING THIS WAR. THEY DID NOT LISTEN TO THOSE OF US AGAINST THIS WAR. NOW, IT'S BECOME "OUR" PROBLEM.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:57 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I've already answered this question many times in the past; you're just ignoring them. LISTEN CLOSELY: I WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED THIS WAR. I WAS AGAINST THIS WAR. THIS ADMINISTRATION DID NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF STARTING THIS WAR. THEY DID NOT LISTEN TO THOSE OF US AGAINST THIS WAR. NOW, IT'S BECOME "OUR" PROBLEM.


You did not answer the question! Pay attention! Not going to war perpetuates and does not prohibit these terrorist murders.

It was our problem before the war as well as our problem now.

Our Problem



Quote:
My specific perception is that we had two tactical choices: containment and replacement.

The fundamental problem with contaiment of the Saddam State is that it allowed continuation of mass murder of Iraqi innocents and Saddam sponsorship of terrorist mass murder of worldwide innocents.

The fundamental problem with replacement of the Saddam State is that it requires huge Iraqi and coalition casualties to evolve an Iraqi republic that totally rejects the murder of innocents..

The importance to the Syrian and Iranians of retaining a mass murdering Iraqi state is evidenced by the number of Syrian and Iranian invaders willing to die to preserve that dastardly state. These people are as evil as Saddam's gang.

To me the dreadful loss of those we love to this undertaking is a horrible burden. It is no less a horrible burden to sit by and observe the murders of innocent people and not attempt to stop that. To sit by and observe is also not without its own serious risks to those we love, and, in deed, to those sitting by and observing. We all are at high risk to join those already murdered innocents in increasingly frequent and massive numbers.

We are all in the same boat. Those attempting to drill holes in our boat by continually criticising the efforts of others to stop these murders by terrorists and not recommending better ways to stop these murders by terrorists are certainly not helping. Such people are in fact active aiders and abettors of these terrorist murderers, and are as guilty of murder as the murdering perpetrators they aid and abet.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:58 am
Quote:
The fundamental problem with contaiment of the Saddam State is that it allowed continuation of mass murder of Iraqi innocents and Saddam sponsorship of terrorist mass murder of worldwide innocents.

my emphasis.

This portion is false. No intelligence agency, US or otherwise, reported any Iraqi sponsored terrorist acts after 1991. Wolfowitz was, and probably remains, incredulous about this fact, but the truth of the matter is after the attempt on George Bush, Sr.'s life by Iraqi intelligence forces, the Clinton administration ordered their main office building in downtown Bagdad blown up and it was in fine fashion. They then put out the word that if there was even a hint of another international plot we would bomb them all back into the stone age. Each and every one of them.

After the Kuwait war, Iraq was marginalized more the any country on the planet including Libya. Did Saddam kill more of his own people while we watched? You betcha. Murdered nearly 200,000 Shi'a right there in the marshlands, but he was finished as an international player in 1991.

Joe
0 Replies
 
 

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