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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:14 pm
@realjohnboy,
12% of the precincts in:
Romney (36%); Paul (24%); Huntsman (17%); Gingrich (11%); Santorum (10%)
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:43 pm
@failures art,
But as much as they hated Bush, Republicans hate Obama more.

Hate can be just as passionate as love.

I have no doubt that I will be defending Romney in this forum, and elsewhere as the need arises.

I'm sick of inspirational political leaders. I want someone who has executive experience and is competent.

The hell with the ideological rock stars, and especially old decaying ones like Newt Gingrich.

From the start I favored a Mitch Daniels candidacy, and he's certainly no rock star.

I don't blame him for not running though, the media would have savaged his wife shamelessly.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Inspirational leaders can be very good. It helps if inspiration is not all they have to offer.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:51 pm
@joefromchicago,
With or without the FDA there will be voices warning against ineffective drugs and treatments. If an individual chooses to use one that is contraverial and not widely recommended by experts, that should be their right; just as it should be their right to not wear seatbelts, gamble, solicit sex from willing adult merchants, and shoot up heroin.

Whether or not individuals should have faith in the medical establishment (including a massive burocracy like the FDA) many do not, and already seek out alternative medical treatments.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:53 pm
@roger,
Agreed, but given a choice between inspiration and competence, I'm going with the latter. Besides, I don't think Romney is half as dull as his detractors assert.

realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 08:06 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

12% of the precincts in:
Romney (36%); Paul (24%); Huntsman (17%); Gingrich (11%); Santorum (10%)
32% in @ 9 pm:
Romney (37%); Paul (24%); Huntsman (17%); Gingrich (10%); Santorum (10%)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 08:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think that's a false dichotomy though. As in, I'd say Obama is more competent than Romney -- and certainly has four more years' experience as president.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 08:41 pm
Meanwhile, re: the question of whether Romney can fire up the base (or take advantage of a fired-up-cause-they-can't-stand-Obama base):

Quote:
With 85 of 301 precincts reporting, 52,191 voters have cast a ballot in the Republican primary so far. That projects to about 185,000 votes statewide, as compared with about 240,000 votes in the Republican primary in 2008. The drop-off in turnout looks worse for Republicans since a higher fraction of voters - about half this year, compared to 37 percent in 2008 - are independents. That means that turnout among registered Republicans could alone be off by nearly 40 percent from 2008.


http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/live-blogging-the-new-hampshire-primary/
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:11 pm
@sozobe,
Of course you do since you believe (with virtually no justification) that Obama has been a competent president.

BTW - Since he has only been America's president for three years, where did he get that 4th year of presidential experience?

I don't expect you to agree with me on Obama's shortcomings. If you think he is both inspirational and competent, God bless you.

While he clearly was inspirational during his campaign for the presidency, it's really hard to accept that anyone thinks he has been so during his presidency.

Maybe he's hit a sweet spot in a speech or two, but only a small core group of his supporters still consider him to inspire in the way he did during his campaign. I call those folks The Valerie Jarret Brigade.

I should say a small group of American supporters, because there is a very large group of his foreign supporters who still find him inspiring. Obviously they don't know as much about current events in America as they would like us all to believe.

In any case, Obama has proven to me that the ability to temporarily inspire is highly overrated except from the perspective of the inspiring individual's personal agenda.

He inspired you to vote for him. How else has he inspired you?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:26 pm
@sozobe,
Romney continues to have to deal with other issues as well, coming from his rivals.
Quote:
The New York Times
January 10, 2012
Shaken by Attacks on Romney’s Past Work, Campaign Tries to Douse Flames
By MICHAEL BARBARO and ASHLEY PARKER

MANCHESTER, N.H. — Campaign advisers to former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, stung by unexpectedly fierce attacks from Republican rivals on his career as a corporate buyout specialist, are scrambling to avoid a prolonged and nasty battle over his business record before it leaves lasting damage to the front-runner.

Although the advisers had always expected that Democrats would malign Mr. Romney’s work of buying and selling companies, they were largely unprepared for an assault that came so early in the campaign and from within the ranks of their own party, those involved in the campaign discussions said.

Even as Mr. Romney coasted to victory in New Hampshire, they worry that the critique could prove more potent as the race shifts to South Carolina, where shuttered mills dot the landscape, unemployment is higher and suspicion of financial elites is not limited to left-leaning voters.

Some advisers to Romney argue that the most forceful way to rebut the mounting criticism is to prominently tell the stories of winners as well as the losers in the world of private equity: municipal pension funds that invest in Bain, for example, and rank-and-file workers hired by the companies that Mr. Romney helped turn around.

The campaign intends to cast Mr. Romney, the founder and chief executive of Bain Capital, as a defender of market capitalism, a bedrock principle of Republicanism, and to suggest that those who assail his business background are outside the party’s mainstream.

In his victory speech Tuesday night, Mr. Romney lamented that “desperate Republicans” were attacking the free enterprise system and the very notion of success.

“This is such a mistake for our party and for our nation,” he said. “The country already has a leader who divides us with the bitter politics of envy.”

That message was echoed by Mr. Romney’s surrogates and embraced by a number of influential conservatives on Tuesday, from Rush Limbaugh to Michelle Malkin and the Club for Growth.

“It’s oddly uniting conservatives around him,” said Jim Dyke, a Republican strategist based in Charleston.

The attacks on Mr. Romney are especially unsettling to his campaign manager, Matt Rhoades, who worries that a narrative depicting Romney as a heartless corporate raider will drag down his favorability rating and be sustained by the Obama campaign, said two people told of the internal discussions. (Eric Fehrnstrom, a senior strategist for Mr. Romney, played down such concerns. “I wouldn’t read too much into the rumors,” he said.)

While his campaign advisers generally agree that Mr. Romney must explain his work at Bain, they are wary of engaging in an exhaustive public examination of the nearly 100 deals he was involved in, anxious that it could bog him down in the inevitably messy details of fixing troubled companies, whether they are job cuts or big financial payouts.

His rivals, however, are eager to delve deeply into the particulars of what they view as Mr. Romney’s biggest political vulnerability.

Gov. Rick Perry of Texas is zeroing in on two companies that, under Bain’s supervision, together laid off hundreds of workers in South Carolina. On Tuesday, in Fort Mill, S.C., Mr. Perry compared buyout firms like Bain to predatory animals.

“They’re just vultures,” Mr. Perry said. “They’re vultures that are sitting out there on the tree limb waiting for the company to get sick, and then they swoop in, they eat the carcass, they leave with that and they leave the skeleton.”

But by far the most aggressive assault on Mr. Romney’s time at Bain will come from allies of Newt Gingrich, who plan to saturate South Carolina’s airwaves with excerpts from a scathing 30-minute movie about how Bain Capital disrupted the lives of everyday workers.

In response on Monday, Restore Our Future, the leading “super PAC” backing Mr. Romney, reserved $2.3 million worth of television advertising time in South Carolina, hoping to match the $3.4 million campaign of negative television and radio ads from a super PAC promoting Mr. Gingrich, Winning Our Future.

The group supporting Mr. Romney pulled a positive advertisement in South Carolina featuring Mr. Romney, substituting one that is critical of the former speaker.

Republican operatives, while expressing dismay at the critique of Bain Capital, nevertheless acknowledged that it could prove powerful in coloring voters’ perceptions of Mr. Romney as he enters South Carolina, a state where he has struggled in the past.

Steve Schmidt, a Republican strategist who is not aligned with a candidate this year, said that Mr. Romney’s work in private equity — an industry that uses large amounts of debt to buy companies and then seeks to sell them at a profit — is “easily caricatured.”

“This will be a major liability that Mitt Romney brings into the race,” he said.

The broadsides against his time at Bain may be particularly resonant because they reinforce a longstanding perception of Mr. Romney, a multimillionaire with three homes, as someone far removed from the concerns of everyday voters.

Mr. Romney seemed to call attention inadvertently to that image in New Hampshire in a remark that he had feared receiving a “pink slip” during his professional life, an assertion that seemed tin-eared coming from the son of a wealthy auto executive and governor of Michigan.

“They are not dissimilar,” said Mr. Schmidt, “to a category of comments that John Kerry made that are a combination of strange and aloof and make the task of connecting with ordinary voters all the more difficult.”

Aides to Mr. Romney are discussing a wide range of ways to push back, including highlighting the experiences of ordinary employees who benefited from Mr. Romney’s investments at companies like Staples, the Sports Authority and Dominos, which thrived after Bain bought or invested in them.

“What should not be forgotten,” said Tom Stemberg, a founder of Staples and a Romney friend, “is that while C.E.O.’s benefited from Mitt’s help, it’s thousands of rank-and-file associates at the company Mitt helped who really benefited in the long run.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/11/us/politics/11romney.html?hp

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:33 pm
@firefly,
No matter how The Bain Story goes, it makes the DEM's argument quite well.

Keep it up guys (IMHO)
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

With or without the FDA there will be voices warning against ineffective drugs and treatments. If an individual chooses to use one that is contraverial and not widely recommended by experts, that should be their right; just as it should be their right to not wear seatbelts, gamble, solicit sex from willing adult merchants, and shoot up heroin.

So you do think ineffective medicines kill people. It's just that, if they die, it's their own damn fault.
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 07:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I have plenty of justification.

One of those sites that indicate just how much he's gotten done so far:

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/what-has-obama-done-since-january-20-2009.html

Some of the high points in my shorter version -- helped stop the freefall that was the economy when he took office, successfully passed healthcare reform, killed Bin Laden, ended the war in Iraq.

The fourth year of presidential experience: if Romney takes office in January 2013, he'd be starting with zero presidential experience. If Obama begins a second term in January 2013, he'd be starting with four years of presidential experience. And that's ya, know, what the election is. Deciding which of them (or a third option, unclear who that would be, Paul?), will be taking the oath of office in January 2013.

Meanwhile, first, my whole point was that I like Obama because he's competent. I think he's more competent than Romney would be.

I didn't say anything about how inspirational I find him, so you're arguing against a straw man there.

But as it happens, the two are quite intertwined for me. Coming off of eight years of Bush, that was one of the big ways that I did find Obama to be an inspirational choice -- the idea of having a rational, competent, intelligent person in the White House was inspiring.

And while the contrast is no longer so glaring, it still is.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 07:30 am
@firefly,
What would be the alternative to Bain's operations?

There is only one I can think of and it's to make consumers buy the products of inefficient companies at whatever prices are necessary to keep them efficient.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 07:33 am
@spendius,
The American consumer wrecked those companies. Mr Romney merely tidied up the mess.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 07:36 am
OK, Romney is now officially "the man to beat." What do the members think about that? Easily done, or easier said than done? I, like JPB, would prefer Huntsman, so i really no longer have a dog in this fight. Who do members think can unseat Romney?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 07:47 am
@joefromchicago,
Still beating that drum and pushing liberal logic, I see.

If you take an ineffective drug and you die, the drug did not kill you, the disease you hoped it might cure did.

If a drug is ruled effective by the FDA but it doesn't prevent a patient from dying, did the effective drug kill the patient?

If someone takes a contraversial drug that has been widely recommended against by experts, then they are taking a large risk which they believe will yield a large return.

FDA approved drugs and treatments do not have anything close to a 100% success rate with many serious diseases. I'm quite sure we can find cases where people have taken unapproved drugs and survived there illnesses. Perhaps the drug helped them or maybe it was a placebo effect. Maybe it was something entirely different. If the approved drugs don't work and the FDA will not allow the patient to try alternatives, is the FDA responsible for the his or her death from the underlying disease?

If the approval process take years and years because FDA personnel are afraid of being wrong, are they responsible for all of the deaths that occur while an ultimately FDA labeled effective drug is kept off the market?

If someone has a raging infection and, rather than taking antibiotics, choses to avail themselves only of acupuncture and time in a sweat lodge, there's a good chance they will die.

I see this as someone making a very poor choice, but if you want to phrase it terms of fault and damn fault, be my guest.

Clearly you are of the opinion that some people cannot be trusted to make sensible, informed decisions and therefore everyone's right to choose must be taken away by the government. Moreover, you apparently aren't all that troubled by the patients who die for want of a drug tied up in the FDA approval process, and believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you is heartless.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 08:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If you take an ineffective drug and you die, the drug did not kill you, the disease you hoped it might cure did.


And you've been ripped off by a snakeoil salesman. These people are con merchants, and they use heavy handed tactics against anyone who dares to tell the truth about them.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 08:27 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:


Some of the high points in my shorter version -- helped stop the freefall that was the economy when he took office, successfully passed healthcare reform, killed Bin Laden, ended the war in Iraq.


Notwithstanding a clearly biased site called "Cut The Crap," there are quite a few people, including economists, who believe Obama's policies worsened and lengthened the recession. TARP (a Bush program) stopped the freefall, not Obama's stimulus disaster.

There are also plenty of people, including experts, who believe giving Obama credit for getting Obamacare done is similar to giving such credit to an arsonist who burns down several buildings. Getting something done and getting something beneficial done are not the same things.

Do you really think he ended the war in Iraq? The agreement to withdraw US troops had been negotiated by the Bush administration before Obama took office. He failed at the only thing he tried to do in respect to Iraq: Negotiating an agreement with the Iraqis to extend US troop deployment.

Yes, Obama was killed during his administration and I'm glad for that. He gave the green light to the mission, but how many presidents would not have done the same thing? It may have been a bold decision taken in spite of advise to play it very safe and not risk a blown mission, or it could have been a reckless decision by a president desperate to have the "I killed Obama" chip in his pocket come November 2012. Personally, I accept the former explanation so I'll give him this one. I'll also give him credit for stepping up Predator drone attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan, even though a credible argument can be made that by doing so we lost a wealth of intelligence that would have been made available by captures, strained our relationship with Pakistan, and gave the Arab Street more cause to hate us. Another credible argument can be made that killing rather than capturing has become our strategy because he simply doesn't want to address what to do with one of these guys if they are taken alive, as that would point out the fact that he never accomplished what he promised he do on his first day in office --- close Gitmo.

It's interesting though that his only achievements, upon which we can agree, involve violence and acts of war. Didn't this guy win the Nobel Peace Prize?

Soz wrote:
The fourth year of presidential experience: if Romney takes office in January 2013, he'd be starting with zero presidential experience. If Obama begins a second term in January 2013, he'd be starting with four years of presidential experience. And that's ya, know, what the election is. Deciding which of them (or a third option, unclear who that would be, Paul?), will be taking the oath of office in January 2013.

Meanwhile, first, my whole point was that I like Obama because he's competent. I think he's more competent than Romney would be.[/quote]

What newly elected president comes to office with presidential experience? By your apparent logic, every president should be elected to a second terms since they will have four more years of presidential experience than their opponent.

In any case, Obama could stay in the White house for 16 years and that would not guarantee competence.

Soz wrote:
I didn't say anything about how inspirational I find him, so you're arguing against a straw man there.


Not really, but I see how there may have been mutual misunderstanding.

You wrote:
I think that's a false dichotomy though. As in, I'd say Obama is more competent than Romney


The dichotomy to which you were referring is between inspiration and competence in a candidate. I made the comment as respects the Republican candidate, not comparing Obama and the Republican candidate.

I might be willing to bet a small amount of money that your posting during his election campaign strongly suggested you found him to be inspiration, and your following comment acknowledges this.

Soz wrote:
But as it happens, the two are quite intertwined for me. Coming off of eight years of Bush, that was one of the big ways that I did find Obama to be an inspirational choice -- the idea of having a rational, competent, intelligent person in the White House was inspiring.


I feel it was safe to assume that by a false dichotomy you meant as relates to Obama; that he is both inspirational and competent. I am gratified to learn that since the election he has not inspired you.









parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 08:27 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

With or without the FDA there will be voices warning against ineffective drugs and treatments. If an individual chooses to use one that is contraverial and not widely recommended by experts, that should be their right; just as it should be their right to not wear seatbelts, gamble, solicit sex from willing adult merchants, and shoot up heroin.

So you do think ineffective medicines kill people. It's just that, if they die, it's their own damn fault.

Shouldn't I also have a right to drive as fast as I want and on whichever side of the road I want? There will certainly be voices warning others to get out of my way.
0 Replies
 
 

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