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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Having a high approval rating is important but there have been cases where having a high approval rating at the time of election didn't help.



Gallup: Obama’s Approval ‘Well Shy of Where ... It Likely Needs Be’ for 2012 Win

Newt Gingrich is doing a pretty good job these last few days of doing the democrats work for them (us.)

Mitt Romney made a fortune at Bain by “bankrupting companies and laying off employees.”

Romney’s Bain Capital Made Billions While Bankrupting Nearly One-Quarter Of The Companies It Invested In

Quote:
Last week, Reuters profiled one company, Worldwide Grinding Systems, that went belly up after Bain invested in it. The company not only lost 750 jobs, but the federal government had to come in to bail out its pension fund, while Bain walked away with millions in profits.

And according to an analysis by the Wall Street Journal, this was far from an isolated incident. In fact, 22 percent of the companies in which Bain invested wound up either in bankruptcy or shutting their doors entirely, while Bain itself has made billions of dollars for its investors:

The Wall Street Journal, aiming for a comprehensive assessment, examined 77 businesses Bain invested in while Mr. Romney led the firm from its 1984 start until early 1999, to see how they fared during Bain’s involvement and shortly afterward.

Among the findings: 22% either filed for bankruptcy reorganization or closed their doors by the end of the eighth year after Bain first invested, sometimes with substantial job losses. An additional 8% ran into so much trouble that all of the money Bain invested was lost. [...]

The Journal analysis shows that in total, Bain produced about $2.5 billion in gains for its investors in the 77 deals, on about $1.1 billion invested. Overall, Bain recorded roughly 50% to 80% annual gains in this period, which experts said was among the best track records for buyout firms in that era.


If the democrats do this right in the general, they can really use this angle of Romney being nothing more than a corporate raider for profit and making people jobless in the process.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I welcome a governmental agency making sure that drugs and remedies being sold to the public won't kill people. I don't, however accept that we need such an agency to tell us whether or not these drugs and remedies are effective.

You don't think ineffective drugs kill people?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:22 am
@joefromchicago,
That's a bit of a daft question Joe.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:25 am
@joefromchicago,
It's thinking like that Joe that shows why we need tort reform.

Next you'll be arguing that ineffective seat belts kill people or malpractice kills people.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:29 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I don't happen to believe that those who hold a pro-choice position necessarily favor or promote abortion. I'm surprised you don't realize it's more complicated than that.


It's not more complicated than that, at all. If you are for allowing something, you are for more of that thing occurring - period. Anything else is trying to be too cute by half - which is evidently your position regarding regulations; you wish to be against them, but don't want to be seen as being for the things that are only held in check by regulations today. I can't see that as an intellectually honest position on your part.

Cycloptichorn
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:33 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

It's thinking like that Joe that shows why we need tort reform.

Next you'll be arguing that ineffective seat belts kill people or malpractice kills people.

Some people say I'm a dreamer ...
0 Replies
 
tyler89
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 09:44 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I agree to that. Perry has made his record make look far better than it actually seems when you have a look at the numbers.
Especially his job number never prove to be quite true.

But this will be pointed out to him quite surely when he continues to run.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 11:03 am
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/why-bain-attacks-could-stick-to-romney/

Quote:
January 9, 2012, 3:25 pm
Why Bain Attacks Could Stick to Romney
By MATT BAI

You’ve tried shredding his record, mocking his ideology, assailing his truthfulness. It’s come to not very much. So if you’re Newt Gingrich or Rick Santorum or Jon Huntsman or Ron Paul, how, exactly, do you stop Mitt Romney?

The answer is: You probably don’t, or at least not in any mortal way. But in this thing about Bain Capital and the factories it closed, Mr. Romney’s rivals might just have found something he needs to worry about, now and in November.

Like it or not, and most of us don’t, there is a real craft to negative campaigning. For an allegation to do real damage, it has to confirm some narrative about a candidate that voters already fear. And it’s always more effective to undermine the strength of a candidate than it is to underscore a known weakness.

Liberals trying to un-elect George W. Bush in 2004 published entire indictments enumerating his crimes against the English language. None of it amounted to much, because most voters had long since decided that Mr. Bush wasn’t fit for Mensa, and they didn’t especially care.

But conservative attacks on John Kerry’s war record were devastating, precisely because they went directly to the core of his argument. Not only did the “swift-boating” of Mr. Kerry cast doubt on his heroism in Vietnam, but it also added to lingering doubts about his constancy, suggesting that he would change his story when the circumstances demanded it.

To this point, the attacks lobbed at Mr. Romney have been disparate and not terribly persuasive. Like a man hurling whatever stone he can find lying around, Mr. Gingrich has assailed Mr. Romney for lying about negative ads, for changing positions more often than a yogi, for being too moderate. The problem with all of these lines of attack is that they don’t tell anyone anything new.

No Republican who’s voting for Mr. Romney is doing so because they think he’s a granite-spined social conservative who never wavers in his convictions. Romney voters like him because they think he’s the guy who knows how to create jobs, and because supposedly he can win over enough independent voters to unseat President Obama.

(The ads that Mr. Romney’s allies ran against Mr. Gingrich in Iowa, on the other hand, proved eviscerating because they annihilated his confrontational persona. The video of the former speaker sharing that couch with Nancy Pelosi couldn’t have been more disturbing to conservatives had it been the grainy tape from some convenience store, showing Mr. Gingrich with a hoodie and pistol.)

This Bain stuff, however, the 27-minute video and the accompanying ad campaign in South Carolina, is something else. The basic gist, in case you missed it, is that Mr. Romney’s private equity firm routinely made money by buying struggling companies and shuttering their plants — including one in Gaffney, S.C., where more than a hundred steel workers were reportedly laid off.

The attack could prove sticky, for three reasons. First, it takes Mr. Romney’s central rationale as a candidate and turns it into a bludgeoning tool. Mr. Romney, after all, is the guy who knows all about turnarounds, which is why we’re supposed to hire him as our c.e.o. Every day he is forced to defend his business record, as opposed to his stance on abortion or gun control, is a bad day for Mitt Romney.

Second, it casts doubt on Mr. Romney’s aura of electability. Most independent voters may not be ready to take up signs and occupy the local park, but neither are they feeling especially warmly toward Wall Street speculators and bonus-gobbling chief executives at the moment, and the Bain narrative casts Mr. Romney in exactly this light.

And third, the Bain line of attack, more than anything else brandished against Mr. Romney to this point, might bring to the surface an instinctive concern that he’s emotively challenged. I heard some version of this a lot when I visited conservative activists and operatives in South Carolina a few weeks ago — that Mr. Romney seemed plastic and programmed, an impression that could only be exacerbated by the idea that he was laying people off and sleeping just fine.

For all these reasons, you can potentially see the darker side of private equity becoming for Mr. Romney, either in coming primaries or in the fall election, what the morally ambiguous side of soldiering became for Mr. Kerry in 2004. Namely: a means of discrediting his central argument for the White House, and an issue that could all too easily, and unfairly, come to define his essential character.

If Mr. Romney’s rivals stick around and press this case effectively, they may yet keep this primary season alive for several more weeks. If Mr. Romney can’t find a way to quickly blunt the attack, he may be answering for it long after that.


Cycloptichorn
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 11:49 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Jan. 10, 2012
Bain Capital tied to bankruptcy, closing of KC steel plant
Dave Helling | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: January 10, 2012 06:36:49 AM

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Bain Capital, a company once operated by GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney, was involved in the 2001 bankruptcy and closing of one of Kansas City's oldest manufacturing plants.

Bain, founded in part by Romney, owned a controlling interest in GST Industries Inc., a steel manufacturer that declared bankruptcy in February 2001. As part of the bankruptcy, the company closed the GST Steel plant in northeast Kansas City, laying off 750 workers.

Romney was not a part of the bankruptcy. He founded Bain in 1984 but left in 1999, two years before the filing and closure, although he is believed to have received income from the company after leaving. It isn't known how much money, if any, Romney earned from Bain's stake in the steel plant.

Bain's involvement with GST Steel was detailed Friday by the Reuters news agency. In the story, former workers said Bain had mismanaged the acquisition, loading up the company with debt while earning profits for itself and in the end abandoning some of its pension commitments.

Bain's business practices have been an issue in the GOP presidential primary, with critics claiming the former Massachusetts governor has been responsible for layoffs and job elimination.

In campaign appearances and debates, Romney has admitted Bain bought some businesses that did not succeed. But he says overall Bain has bought and developed companies that have added employees.

Bain, with Romney at the helm, bought the former Armco Worldwide Grinding System business in 1993, including part of the massive steel plant near the Blue River in northeast Kansas City. A steelworks had operated on the site since the 1880s. At its peak, when it was known as Armco Steel, the plant employed 4,500 people.

That workforce had dwindled dramatically by the time GST Steel took over operations, making steel rods and grinding apparatus.

By 2001, facing increased competition from cheaper imported steel - and several years after a bitter labor dispute at the plant - GST Industries filed for bankruptcy and closed the subsidiary Kansas City operation, dismissing the remaining employees. A spokesman for the company said GST Steel lost $25 million in 2000.

The company also said it could not meet full pension and health care commitments to retirees, the Reuters story said. In August 2002 the federal government, through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., said the company had underfunded its pension obligations by $44 million.

The pension agency stepped in to pay basic benefits to the plant's retirees. The benefit paid to GST Steel workers was less than the benefit promised in contract negotiations.

Pension agency benefits were paid for by premiums provided by pension plans and not directly from taxpayers.

In a statement to Reuters, Romney campaign spokesman Ryan Williams said: "Bain Capital invested in many businesses. While not every business was successful, the firm had an excellent overall track record and created jobs."

But Brad Woodhouse, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee, said in a statement: "This is a template of what Mitt Romney did as a corporate buyout specialist."
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  5  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 12:04 pm
Finn says:
Quote:
I welcome a governmental agency making sure that drugs and remedies being sold to the public won't kill people. I don't, however accept that we need such an agency to tell us whether or not these drugs and remedies are effective.


I say "Hooray, I can finally sell you my grain alcohol as long as I water it down enough not to kill you right off, all while telling you that, because each and every bottle of melixirer contains 72 drops, (72! )(I count them) of pure unadulterated snake oil, it will cure you of any of the dozens of maladies listed on the bottle below the picture of my blessed Mother. These include cancers of all kinds, heart disease, arthur-itis and the dreaded gooey eyeball."

Joe(Meanwhile the vita-supplement business in this country does exactly the same thing)Nation
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 02:00 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I don't know how most Democrats related to Kerry, but I won't be holding my nose when I vote for Romney.

Democrats didn't pinch their nose either. They just weren't inspired to go out, register voters, passionately defend him, and do the other sorts of things that help win a campaign.

Whether you pinch your nose or not is not the point. You wanna tell me that you'll go and defend Romney when people start criticize him? I don't see many people lining up to go to bat for him. The closest we see is Republicans telling other Republicans "He's electable!"

I think what's more likely is that you'll just accept he's your candidate, show up at the predetermined time and location, pull the lever, and go home to watch him lose.

A
R
T
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 02:10 pm
@joefromchicago,
Nope



joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 02:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Nope

Can I interest you in some Laetrile?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 02:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I don't happen to believe that those who hold a pro-choice position necessarily favor or promote abortion. I'm surprised you don't realize it's more complicated than that.


It's not more complicated than that, at all. If you are for allowing something, you are for more of that thing occurring - period. Anything else is trying to be too cute by half - which is evidently your position regarding regulations; you wish to be against them, but don't want to be seen as being for the things that are only held in check by regulations today. I can't see that as an intellectually honest position on your part.

Cycloptichorn


The unstated nonsensical proposition implicit in Cyclo's bit above is that the future behavior of individual people ought to be controlled by someone or something, presumably the government so that every conceivable undesirable action will be either prohibited or punished by that agency. That of course is a definition of tyranny. Who or what will limit thge power and action of a government based on such a principle.

Never mind that the track record of government regulation, whether in commerce or criminal matters, is that it is largely ineffective and easily circumvented by anyone strongly motivated to do so .

Those who presume to know what's good for us and who are inclined fo force us all to do their bidding are the enemies of freedom.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 02:56 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Those who presume to know what's good for us and who are inclined fo force us all to do their bidding are the enemies of freedom.


Oh . . . you mean . . . like Bush's Homeland Security?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 03:15 pm
@georgeob1,
Bullshit, I said nothing of the sort, and you are simply replacing my actual argument with a well-trodden path you like to wander down as often as possible.

It seems your MO for these discussions is to drag every single conversation away from the actual topic, and towards a discussion of fascism and communism, as fast as possible. Constant use of Slippery Slope and Appealing to Extremes fallacies, very little actual thought put into the argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 05:30 pm
My MO is to keep trying to get the discussion back on topic. Something about the Republican nomination for president.

It Is Not Whether You Win Or Lose...Did You Beat The Point Spread?

Many polling stations in NH will close in less than an hour with others closing at 8 pm ET. My understanding is that results will start coming in from the 7 o'clock before the later closing time.
There are 770K registered voters with the Dems and Repubs each having 30% while the remaining 40% signed up as "undeclared."
Some party and election officials claim that 250K will vote today. That would be more than in 2008 and strikes me as more than a bit optimistic.
Anecdotal evidence from earlier today suggests that turnout is light. We will see, but I think it will be around 200K. Part of that could be that a substantial number of people were turned off by all the negative campaigning.
The important thing to watch is how the candidates fare in relation to the last couple of polls where the "undeclared," who were not included in most of the polls, decide whether or not to participate.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 05:33 pm
@realjohnboy,
The only thing worth watching in NH, as I see it, is who's going to come in 2nd and how close the vote will be.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 05:49 pm
@realjohnboy,
This was from Sunday as I recall.
realjohnboy wrote:

RCP's poll of polls in NH suggests that-
Romney is at 40%
Paul- 21%
Santorum- 11%
Huntsman- 9%
Gingrich- 9%
Perry- 1%
I am thinking that Romney will come in at 37% followed by Paul at 25%. Huntsman and Santorum will be ahead of Gingrich 11-8%.
Perry will likely withdraw from the race.
The NH primary is open to everyone. That will help Paul.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 06:43 pm
@realjohnboy,
I found this amusing.
Fox news reports that, based on some exit polls, 44% of the voters today in NH were in the group called "undeclared." That fits with what I described earlier.
The story goes on to say that 30% voted for Romney, while 24% supported Huntsmann and 20% went for Santorum. No mention of Ron Paul or the remaining 26%.
0 Replies
 
 

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