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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 06:23 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

It probably isn't true in every instance, but it is true that the cost of regulatory overhead is prohibitive to growth/expansion of small businesses.

Find a cheaper way to prove that you're following the regs? Surely you jest. Try telling the FDA that you've found a cheaper way to submit your new drug application.


There's all sorts of different regulations that we're talking about here; some are undoubtedly cheaper than others, or could be made to be so.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 06:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Removing the requirements to prove you're doing it right essentially allows the pollution to continue. As an advocate of less regulation, are you comfortable making the affirmative statement, that this is what you want?


No, which is why I'm not a free market capitalist. OTOH, I don't think it's as black and white as good consumers and evil manufacturers. I think we've gotten to the point where we want the government to protect us from ourselves, something that I am opposed to.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  9  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 06:50 pm
The problem with the arguments against regulation which center around the costs to business is that they are essentially dishonest. It is not a case of creating costs out of thin air. If there are no occupational safety and health regulations, the costs of injuries and illness (and i assure they will be there--they're there even with regulation) is shifted from the employer to the employee (increased health insurance premiums, deductibles and co-pays), to the state (the cost of emergency medical services and medical care for those without adequate medical coverage). The cost of eviromental legislation is shifted to the states and the federal government who have to deal with the health effects of pollution and the costs of clean-up.

For many years, i was a very successful freelance manager of small businesses. Regulation in fact reduces the cost of doing business. If anyone i advised attempted to avoid regulation, i was soon gone. But when you take the time to, for example, send your employees off to the occupational health and safety courses manadated by the bureau of worker's compensation, your premium costs go down--way down. When you hit a certain level of occupational health, X number of days with no on-the-job injuries, a certain low percentage of days lost to illness (attributable to job conditions) or injury, insurance groups come courting you. You can significantly reduce the cost of your group health insurance.

Few--almost no--small businessmen act as the general contractors on large scale jobs requiring environmental impact investigations and statements. Those costs are borne by the general contractor, the company taking the main contract and subbing to small businessmen for specialized contracts, or even more general contracts such as plumbing, electrical, HVAC, lighting . . . small businessmen bear none of those costs and there's no way to shift EPA costs to the small businessman.

Prevailing wage regulation not only does not cost small businessmen more to do business, it allows them to quote higher costs in their bids to general contractors or government agencies. The reporting requirments are a few minutes a day in addition to the recordskeeping alreay require to file one's Form 941s. Prevailing wage requirements also mean that you can justify in your budgets paying your people more than you might on a non-PW job, and that usually means better performance. You are able to attract and retain a better class of employee.

Health insurance plans are also another way to attract and retain good employees, especially married men and women who can be considered--statistically--more reliable as long term employees. All employee costs drop as an employee's seniority increases. As i've already pointed out, meeting occupation health an safety regulations and workers' compensation regulation almost invariably results in much more attractive group insurance packages.

In my experience, business regulation not only doesn't hurt small businesses, it usually makes them more profitable. It's businesses who work "down and dirty" and hope to exploit a non-skilled low wage work force who whine the most about regulation, because they never intended to spend a penny more than they had to, and the employees be damned.
farmerman
 
  8  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 08:00 pm
@Setanta,
Its what Ive been saying, (but not as well). There are more businesses that have been spawned BY regulations than have been stifled. Pollution regs have spurred entirely new process designs and equipment. Safety regs have been the parents of entirely new generations of transportation or safety equipment and H/S monitoring . Even such things as FIRE SPRINKLERS have been absorbed into manufacturing and design requirements that they are seamless today.
Arc Info and Arc View, two of themost professionaly used mapping program systems.Both were developed for environmental compliance projects.

DMIR (a railroad that served the mesabi "Range") installed several hundred million dollar asbestos filtration systems at the taconite (Tootsie roll prep yards) (taconite is not a mineral, its a manufactured pellet). The asbestos filters allowed the mines to mine raw ores as low as 1% Fe2O3/Fe3O4/FeO/FeCo3. That apparently environmental move returned Billions in Taconite pellets where otherwise they would have only been mining down to about 15% Iron components.

It even looks like the Detroit boys are getting a resurgence in sales as they learn how to build -in safety, fuel economy, and quality.

Its an amazing argument from someone like Georgeob. He runs a consulting fiorm that depends on reguklations for business. FI were him Id say a rosary of thanks for clean air/clean water/OSHA/Interstate hiways/MSHA's/OSS / Furap/Umtra/Ecra/ACt 2/Acts 214/etc etc.

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 08:02 pm
I believe it is not unfair to say that most of O'George's posts are motivated by partisan ideology.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 08:05 pm
http://www.infowars.com/judge-napolitano-what-if-the-establishment-is-lying-to-us-about-ron-paul/
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 08:07 pm
@Setanta,
I am sore vexed with disappointment from learning that!!. I , however, have no understanding about how the GOP chooses its standard bearers, since they all seem to demand "purity of Essence" sloganeering.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 08:09 pm
@farmerman,
Well, it's a cattle call for ideological beauty contest entrants. They choose themselves, and then they walk the runway with big, phony smiles pasted on for the rubes to make their choice. Same for the Democrats, of course.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 09:21 pm
A song for all the republicans, running for office or not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsmAMKUIXbE&feature=autoplay&list=PLF3C7392F8468237A&lf=plpp_play_all&playnext=1
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 09:35 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I believe it is not unfair to say that most of O'George's posts are motivated by partisan ideology.


I believe it is not unfair to say that that is an understatement.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 09:46 pm
@JTT,
Is that a problem?
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 09:50 pm
@realjohnboy,
This thread is The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House, RJB. I'm sure that thousands would enjoy a separate thread about Gob1 and his expectorate.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 10:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Looks like I hit a sore tooth. I'm sorry Finn, I'm trying to offer you any consolation prize that I can. 2012 is not shaping up to be a year for the GOP. You seem to understand this, which notably makes you The thinking man's Republican. Poor H20man actually believes his own watercooler sermons. I get that this is frustrating to watch. Your relationship with Romney is much like most democrats with Kerry in 2004: Uninspired. I doubt that much inspiration or energy is going to come to the GOP, but there's plenty of time for Obama to **** up... Which is pretty much the GOP's only chance.

BTW, you filled up my bingo card, so it's off to Subway. As it happens to be, the place is very Vegan friendly. The Subway by Gallaudet is also very friendly to the def. You can order using ASL there. I'll probably go eat my sandwich at a drum circle, read some pamphlets on Marx and then ride my fixie into the sunset.

That last paragraph was so you could fill you're bingo card up.

Another concession prize
R
T
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 10:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't happen to believe that those who hold a pro-choice position necessarily favor or promote abortion. I'm surprised you don't realize it's more complicated than that.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 10:32 pm
@failures art,
Thank you for your generosity, but if I did have a deist political bingo card it would have been filled up twice over in the first 30 days of OWS.

I don't know how most Democrats related to Kerry, but I won't be holding my nose when I vote for Romney.

I also don't think the GOP will lose the general election...unless it nominates Gingrich or Perry. Although I doubt he can, there's a possibility that Santorum could pull it off. It doesn't matter though because Romney will win the nomination, and he will beat Obama even if things don't get worse (although I'm not betting on that either).

Whether or not its true (and it is), millions of Americans already figure Obama has fucked up. If and when his approval rating climbs back over 50%, I'll start to worry.

realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 10:32 pm
@JTT,
I got distracted for a few days after several posters derailed this thread. But we now seem to be back on topic. My thanks to the people who helped make that happen.
Drive on. This thing has gotten some 68,000 views in a year. I am quite proud of that.
I mentioned before that, in addition to being a political junkie, I play a lot of on-line scrabble. I am not very good, but I have met players from some 120 countries. I ask them questions about events in their places and sometimes I get very candid answers.
I find it interesting that there are a number of people from outside the U.S. following this thread. They are rare to post, but I do get more then a few emails asking about our weird process.
I hope that, as this thing progresses, there will be be people who try to be reporters. Partisans will, of course, always be welcome.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 11:27 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
I got distracted for a few days after several posters derailed this thread. But we now seem to be back on topic.
My thanks to the people who helped make that happen.
Drive on. This thing has gotten some 68,000 views in a year. I am quite proud of that.
I mentioned before that, in addition to being a political junkie, I play a lot of on-line scrabble.
I am not very good, but I have met players from some 120 countries. I ask them questions about events
in their places and sometimes I get very candid answers.
Yeah, but u know, u can get very candid answers that are radically different from folks born n grown
in the same naborhood. Remember the story of the 3 blind men feeling an elephant??
How do u know what merits credence ?



realjohnboy wrote:
I find it interesting that there are a number of people from outside the U.S. following this thread.
They are rare to post, but I do get more then a few emails asking about our weird process.
I hope that, as this thing progresses, there will be be people who try to be reporters. Partisans will, of course, always be welcome.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 11:35 pm
@farmerman,
No Republican president or Congress is going to eliminate all governmental regulation; nor should they.

To rationalize regulation as a vital source of innovation however, is like suggesting that hunger is a good thing because it gets people to work.

There is a market for safer and more fuel efficent cars that doesn't require the help of regulation, and what government regulations have spurred Detroit to build better quality vehicles?

Sarbanes Oxley was a fabulous gift to accounting firms. You remember those guys, the ones who you likely wished to tar and feather around the time of Enron.

The costs of compliance for public companies have far exceeed the original estimates, and unless one wishes to argue that without SOX the Financial Meltdown would have destroyed the earth's core, the regulations were of virtually no help in preventing the Great Recession.

You will find statistics that indicate SOX costs are declining but this is because corporations are scaling back on compliance. This is a calculated risk on the part of management because they have not seen cases of significant SOX related penalties. There is, of course, no assurance that such penalties will not be imposed tomorrow.

SOX requires companies to document control processes. The accounting firms that are making millions of dollars conducting SOX audits do not test the efficacy of the controls, only whether or not they are written down and certain members of an organization can parrot them.

The notion that SOX has increased the objectivity and independence of auditing firms is ridiculous. It has increased the activity and billable hours of these firms though.

Obviously we can't know what might have happened in corporate America if SOX had not been enacted, but we do know what happened since it was enacted and it hardly can lay claim to silver bullet status.

There is a place for government oversight and regulation, but it always ovvereaches.

The FDA is a good example.

I welcome a governmental agency making sure that drugs and remedies being sold to the public won't kill people. I don't, however accept that we need such an agency to tell us whether or not these drugs and remedies are effective.

The FDA has an organizational bias towards delaying approval, because it only comes under fire if it is perceived to have too hastily approved a drug. Although there is no shortage of statistics concerning the victims of certain drugs, who is keeping track of the number of people who would have benefited (and, indeed, lived) if a drug had been approved sooner?

By extension, your argument suggests that the more regulations, the better for the economy, or that you believe governmental regulators are near perfect technocrats.

This is simply not the case.
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Mon 9 Jan, 2012 11:56 pm
@realjohnboy,
How about explaining our political process to me. Ive lived here for 76 years and still dont understand it. I know how its supposed to work but it has been perverted by the two party system and money. It started when they changed bribery to political contributions.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2012 07:48 am
@RABEL222,
Well--you see Rabel--nothing works without bribery and that word has pejorative connotations so it had to morph into something a bit more in line with lower middle-class aesthetic tastes.

Or things come to an entropic dispersion only finite because of the few who take to the hills.

Sit down, close your eyes, and imagine a world without bribery.

Possibly you don't understand how the system works due to having a mental block on bribery.

Voters offer the temptation of rocket proof motor cars, with outrider escorts, brass bands, bounding up short stairways opportunities, foreign holidays in the most salubrious locations, fountain pen flourishings and numerous other goodies in the control freakery genre which a short post such as this is intended to be has no time to set out in detail, which shouldn't be taken to suggest an incapacity in that regard: temptations to get them to do our dirty work whilst we remain respectably distanced from it.

To be a bit ridiculous for a moment, I might say that the problem is having removed the smoke from the smoke-filled rooms.
0 Replies
 
 

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