68
   

The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:07 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I doubt the general public knows a ******* thing about that aspect of it though, lol, the topline number is what matters to most 'low-information' voters.

I think you have a mistaken view of how unemployment affects elections. It doesn't work through the "general public" reading the newspaper. It works through individuals asking themselves: "Do I have a job or don't I? Are my wage and benefits better than they were four years ago or aren't they? So do I want four more years of the president who got me in this place or don't I?"

There are no low-information voters when it comes to these questions. Individuals know exactly what their answers are. And if one of the answers is that no, I don't have a job, it doesn't matter if the BLS categorizes this individual as unemployed or as a frustrated worker. Either way, this individual is unlikely to vote for the incumbent office holder. The "general public", and hence the outcome at the polls, only exists as an aggregation of these individual decisions.

And that's why it matters if the reduction in unemployment comes from people finding jobs or people giving up looking.


Sure, and that's why I included the actual number of jobs created along with the rate. If Obama were to enjoy another 10 months of increases at the rate of December - which probably won't happen, I'm just using as an example - there would be an extra 2 million employed by the election. That's noticeable and appreciable.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:11 am
@engineer,
I just looked up the original data in the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Employment Situation Summary. The number to look for is the labor-force participation rate. As you will see, it's unchanged since the previous month, very slightly lower than a year ago. As I suspected, it's basically a wash from the standpoint of working people, and hence for their motivation to re-elect the president. The rest is hype.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:36 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I just looked up the original data in the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Employment Situation Summary. The number to look for is the labor-force participation rate. As you will see, it's unchanged since the previous month, very slightly lower than a year ago. As I suspected, it's basically a wash from the standpoint of working people, and hence for their motivation to re-elect the president. The rest is hype.


Well, I'll look into it further. But I maintain that my earlier statement is true: if the topline unemployment number continues to drop, and the economy continues to add jobs at the rate that it has for the last few months, Obama will reap benefits from it in the next election. There may be a question of how MUCH it will benefit him, but it certainly will be no negative.

The articles on CNN and MSNBC.com about this right now are full of positive news about the topline numbers, and how it could lead to stronger growth (and higher tax receipts!) in the new year. For many voters, THIS is what they will read and know about the situation. I submit that there are MANY more voters who are employed, but concerned about employment, than there are unemployed ones - and positive news of any sort doesn't hurt the narrative that Obama wants to push.

I would also point out that we've seen a decrease in new unemployment claims for the last 6-8 weeks as well, which is an additional sign of real improvement in the employment situation, not just statistical improvement.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
What's a job Cyclo? What's work?

Were all those bankers working pre 2008?

What are the numbers coming into the labour market for the first time?

Is it possible to run our sort of system with full employment?

What do you do about increasing efficiencies in production?

Are wage levels being considered?

Who is putting out the figures you are using?
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
FOR THE RECORD:
I favor making and running attack ads.
David


me too, but i think the ads should be allowed to contain outright lies

"Presidential candidate (insert name here) sodomizes the corpses of euthanized puppies", would make a great ad
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:01 pm
@djjd62,
Which had been euthenised to stop them barking.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:19 pm
Quote:
The End Of Republican Fusionism?

http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20162ff1eb246970d-550wi

Today, the Boston Globe endorsed Jon Huntsman, a mixed blessing for New Hampshire Republicans, but surely a net plus for him. And if he had run a decent campaign and emerged strongly in the debates, you can see how, in an alternative universe, and one I hoped for last summer, this could have been a tipping point. But, sadly, it probably isn't. In the last few polls, Huntsman's support has actually been slipping slightly, and he's being overtaken by Santorum.

What's notable about New Hampshire is Gingrich's collapse over the last month, which wasn't caused in New Hampshire by the Bain Super-PAC. And what's more striking to me is that two candidates have been making steady gains there for the last month at Newt's expense: Romney and Paul. Santorum is soaring, after Iowa, but he still has only half of Paul's support in this libertarian-minded state. Remember also that all these events are currently proportional - so Paul's third and second places add up, especially if you have mastered the caucus process and, unlike some others, actually got on the ballot in every state.

What we're seeing, I think, is Romney as the last, dying gasp of Republican fusionism. The old aliiance - free market capitalism, social conservatism and anti-Communism - has morphed into a new one - libertarianism, Christianism and anti-Jihadism. Each faction has become more extreme as they have marinated in their own media complex, and responded to their fantasies about president Obama. And there is therefore no fusion possible between them. Maybe a charismatic figure like Reagan could somehow bind them together again; but such a figure comes along rarely.

Romney's problem is that he understands he has to unite all these strands, but so obviously sees each of them as merely marketing tools for Romney Inc. that he inspires real confidence from none of them. They may get over it. But this feels like a loaf that won't rise in the oven. The fusionist yeast has disappeared. And Obama, far from uniting them all, seems only, in his inimitable way, to drive them into suicidal distraction.


http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/01/ron-paul-in-new-hampshire.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:29 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I doubt the general public knows a ******* thing about that aspect of it though, lol, the topline number is what matters to most 'low-information' voters.

I think you have a mistaken view of how unemployment affects elections. It doesn't work through the "general public" reading the newspaper. It works through individuals asking themselves: "Do I have a job or don't I? Are my wage and benefits better than they were four years ago or aren't they? So do I want four more years of the president who got me in this place or don't I?"

There are no low-information voters when it comes to these questions. Individuals know exactly what their answers are. And if one of the answers is that no, I don't have a job, it doesn't matter if the BLS categorizes this individual as unemployed or as a frustrated worker. Either way, this individual is unlikely to vote for the incumbent office holder. The "general public", and hence the outcome at the polls, only exists as an aggregation of these individual decisions.

And that's why it matters if the reduction in unemployment comes from people finding jobs or people giving up looking.


I think Thomas has it exactly right here. Cyclo appears to have mastered the talking points of Democrat political strategists, and they probably do indeed reflect the operating political strategy among them. However, mere people do indeed think for themselves and understand the reality of their individual situations. One here is reminded of Ronald Reagan's rhetorical question to his audience during the 1979 campaign, "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?"

Perhaps the most obnoxious aspect of Progressive politics is the implicit conviction that their political elite alone knows what is good for the rest of us. Cyclo exhibits that ignorant arrogance of that viewpoint extraordinarily well.

The presidential election is indeed likely to be close, and predictions of the future, from whatever source, are unreliable at best. Enthusiasm by advocates of the left or right about current trends that are pervceived as favorable is certainly understandable. However, it is always important for all involved to remain sufficiently detached so that they themselves don't become the principal victims of the propaganda they are using to influence others.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 12:33 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:


Perhaps the most obnoxious aspect of Progressive politics is the implicit conviction that their political elite alone knows what is good for the rest of us. Cyclo exhibits that ignorant arrogance of that viewpoint extraordinarily well.


I would recommend examining the beam in thy own eye, George; your frequent pronouncements that you know what is best for economic growth are no different than my pronouncements for my side.

I believe you yourself make no significant distinction between what you call 'propaganda' and 'facts you find inconvenient.' My base argument is unassailable: if the employment situation continues to improve, our economy continues to add jobs, and the top-line unemployment numbers continue to drop, it WILL provide a boost for Obama going into an election year. I doubt you even disagree with this in the slightest. The most you can do is mutter that it won't matter very much. I think that this is a projection of hope on your part more than anything else.

This is also the second or third time in the last few days you've implicitly compared Romney to Reagan; it's not hard to understand why, as you compare Obama to Carter on a regular basis. However, it's completely false, the two men couldn't be more different; and the arguments and rhetoric Reagan put forward are highly unlikely to be successful for Romney.

However, as to the specific question, 'are you better off now than 4 years ago?' the answer for many is clearly yes, as the economy was in free-fall back then, shedding jobs at a massive rate, and has stabilized now and is adding jobs.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 01:13 pm
Well, as Obamanomics, in good Keynsian fashion, continues to present better numbers, and as his poll results go up, let's look at what we'd get if we bought into the Romneyconomy: large tax cuts for the wealthy, a near wash for the middle class, and large tax increases for those making under $40,000 a year. Vote Mitt: Why Shouldn't the Super Rich Get Welfare Too?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/06/10010062-wealthy-would-benefit-most-from-romney-plan
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 02:38 pm
@MontereyJack,
What do you think the Super Rich have been living on all these years?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 03:06 pm
@Thomas,
It also works through reading the newspaper Thomas. We can't talk ourselves into a recession if we don't follow the news and respond to it. The majority of people are employed. They don't have to ask themselves if they have a job. They need to ask if they are worried about losing their job which is related to unemployment rate and how the economy is doing. They get that from the news as much as anything else. There is always the general question asked of suppliers and customers, "how's business?". (That seems to have shown an uptick in many industries.) But not everyone has access to those resources so they rely on the news even if it is an emotional response and not logical.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 05:01 pm
Santorum may have entrapped some in the bible belt about marriage equality but New Hampshire isn't having it, and Rick is very pissy they aren't falling for his bizarre antics, its funny!

0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 05:14 pm
Good evening to you all. The BLS numbers came out today as has been noted in some of the posts above. I have been trying to understand the numbers. I think that, on balance, December was a decent month. We have a thread called "Where Is The Economy Headed" where we can talk about the data in detail.
Santorum came out of Iowa headed towards New Hampshire. But he has not had a good week there over his stances on social issues. "Two men wanting to marry? How about three? And a dog." A couple of tough crowds. He will probably do better in SC.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 06:11 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
One here is reminded of Ronald Reagan's rhetorical question to his audience during the 1979 campaign, "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?"

Thanks for reminding me that that I should have said "one year", not "four years". Case in point: In November 1980, average Americans were doing better, wage-wise and employment-wise, than in November 1976. But they were doing a lot worse than in November 1979. That's what cost Carter the presidency. (Data at bls.gov and research.stlouisfed.gov.) Similarly, with opposite sign, in November 1984, when workers were doing slightly worse than in November 1980 but much better than in November 1983. So, voters have shorter memories than Ronald Reagan gave them credit for. But the rest of my point still stands.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 06:15 pm
@Thomas,
What cost Carter the presidency was the Iran hostage crisis combined with his Rose Garden campaigning policy.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 06:21 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
One here is reminded of Ronald Reagan's rhetorical question to his audience during the 1979 campaign, "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?"


To which one might have replied--"Yeah--but it has **** all to do with twatty politicos. You're just riding on its skirts."

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 10:27 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
What cost Carter the presidency was the Iran hostage crisis combined with his Rose Garden campaigning policy.
Of course; no cared about stag flation; that was OK.
The Misery Index was fine too. Everyone knows that.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Lustig Andrei wrote:
What cost Carter the presidency was the Iran hostage crisis combined with his Rose Garden campaigning policy.
Of course; no cared about stag flation; that was OK.
The Misery Index was fine too. Everyone knows that.


No doubt there were quite a number of things wrong with the Carter presidency, David. I still maintain, however, that the proximate cause of his defeat was the Iran hostage situation and his total inability to deal with that. As soon as Ronald Reagan was inaugurated, the hostages were released. It was, apparently, obvious to the powers in Teheran that Reagan was not going to pussyfood around.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jan, 2012 11:47 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I'm newly interested in that denouement. A friend of ours was a Carter speech writer, no dummy. Interested in your take on Carter, Andrew, though I suppose not on this thread.
0 Replies
 
 

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