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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 11:01 am
@georgeob1,
It would have to be a pretty special candidate, for the Republicans to capture a significant portion of Conservative Dems this cycle. I haven't seen that guy yet.

Do you not agree with the proposition that in order for the Republicans to have a strong success in the Senate, they need to have a strong candidate at the top of the ticket? I'd have to look the numbers up, but I seem to recall that the two tend to track each other pretty closely in Presidential election years.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 11:30 am
@realjohnboy,
rjb, It's either scary or a good thing that Palin scores that high in the current polls; it means the GOP will be split enough to defeat their chances - or - Palin might be a threat to any democrat running.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 11:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It depends on exactly what you mean with these somewhat imprecise terms. I don't believe that the Republicans require a Presidential victory to gain a 5-8 senate seats in the next election. Indeed I believe that outcome in the Senate is a near certainty in any projection based on current conditions, while, considering the Rasmussen poll RJB posted above, a Republican presidential victory doesn't yet look likely.

I guess you are also implying that a weak enough Republican Presidential candidate could deny Republicans even the success in the senate I noted above. While I'm willing to support the conjecture based on a self-referential term like "weak enough", I don't see it as a realistic possibility in the conditions at hand. Note that even in the "evil" Rasmussen poll RJB cited, Romney comes in about statistically even with Obama. Even applying the 5% bias you usually attribute to Rasmussen (something I don't believe is supported by the resultant facts where they are available) the poll indicates a close enough race to deny your proposition by any reasonable standard.

Guard against excessive demonization of the opposition. It often leads to underestimating them. Most people, even political figures, are complex creatures. Almost no one in the public eye is as good or bad as their supporters and opponents paint them to be.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 12:26 pm
@georgeob1,
I think the idea that the Republicans are going to gain 5-8 seats in the Senate in the next election is a stretch to begin with. Do you have specific seats in mind when you say this, or just sort of a nebulous idea of what you think SHOULD happen, based on the last election?

There are a lot of Dems up for re-election, but the majority of them are in very safe seats. And the Republicans have a few seats that they are going to have to fight very hard indeed to keep themselves.

You call the 5-8 seat outcome a 'near certainty.' I don't think that's anywhere near accurate. I'd love to see what actual data you look at that causes you to make statements like that, but I won't hold my breath.

Re: Rasmussen, you are simply incorrect. Educate yourself:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/rasmussen-polls-were-biased-and-inaccurate-quinnipiac-surveyusa-performed-strongly/

Nate Silver goes into excruciating detail regarding the failings of the Ras model - and the self-selection bias that powers their strong Republican-leaning results.

Re: early candidate polling, it's useless and we all know it. It's impossible at this remove to have anything even remotely similar to the actual situation the country will find itself in in 18 months.

If you really think the Republicans are going to pick up that many seats in the Senate - tell us which ones they are. One would think that you would have an idea about that before making such a bold statement.

Cycloptichorn
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 12:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Perhaps you missed my humble request, Cyclo. I would appreciate it if you could post a map of the electoral college results in 2008 between Obama and McCain.
Thanks.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 12:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't believe a lot of sound and fury over competing stastistics attempting to forecast the results of individual senate elections about 20 months away is either interesting or worth the effort. Furthermore, considering the inaccruacy of your own bombast over the last couple of years in forecasting the results of the last election, I don't think it would be enlightening either. I am merely considering the realtive exposure of Republican and Democrat senators and extrapolating on currently observable trends. I believe that is the most rational approach under the circumstances, and it is the only one I am willing to consider. I'll be more than willing to make a bet on the proposition and am inclined to remind you that you were the loser of a similar rhetorical bet in the recent House election - by a country mile.

Enough with the claims of superior foreknowledge. Your real track record doesn't support your overbearing pretensions.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:24 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

Perhaps you missed my humble request, Cyclo. I would appreciate it if you could post a map of the electoral college results in 2008 between Obama and McCain.
Thanks.



I did miss that at the end of your post, thanks for reminding me.

http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/images/nytimes-electoral-map.gif

I believe Obama did eventually win Missouri as well.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:28 pm
@georgeob1,
So, you throw around terms like '5 to 8 seats' but you haven't looked into the actual seats at all, you don't know who is vulnerable, you haven't considered the Republican seats which are likely to flip. It's just your gut, uninformed opinion. You're not even willing to consider looking at any facts or any statistics of the races involved at all! How intellectually lazy can one get?

I can't have a meaningful discussion about your opinions. Suffice it to say that an examination of which senators are up for re-election would quickly show that the concept you are presenting is a false one. But we all know how you disdain things like details or proof.

Regarding my track record; I was half right in the last election, predicting that the Dems would hold the House and the Senate. I could counter by saying that you have a history of making predictions that don't necessarily come true either.

I noticed that you failed to respond to your incorrect statement regarding Rasmussen. I believe that this fits right in with my previous statement: you avoid facts and polls and statistics because they are harmful to your argument, and you are unable to address the inconsistencies between your opinions and reality. You simply refuse to answer, as if doing so would make these inconsistencies go away. I doubt anyone here is fooled.

You make bold statements but when challenged on them you inevitably retreat from the field, all while dripping scorn and condescension on those who are willing to do actual scholarship to back up their opinions. What would your opinion of someone else who acted in that fashion be? Would you find that to be impressive?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
That link didn't work, Cyclo.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:34 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

That link didn't work, Cyclo.


Funny, I see the picture. Let me try again -

http://www.redmycounty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/2008_election_final_results.jpg

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:37 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:



http://www.538host.com/gopchart.png

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/a-graphical-overview-of-the-2012-republican-field/

Quote:
One can certainly debate exactly what it means to be a moderate or a conservative, and exactly where any particular candidate falls along this spectrum. Likewise, the insider/outsider dimension is somewhat blurry: is a potential candidate like Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina, who aligns himself with the Tea Party but is also an influential senator, a part of the Republican establishment or an opponent of it? So my placement of the candidates is necessarily approximate.

With that said, it is exceptionally important to consider how the candidates are positioned relative to one another. Too often, I see analyses of candidates that operate through what I’d call a checkbox paradigm, tallying up individual candidates’ strengths and weaknesses but not thinking deeply about how they will compete with one another for votes. If you like, you can think of the circles on my chart as stars or planets that exert gravitational forces on one another, seeking to clear their own safe space in the galaxy while at the same time stealing matter (voters) from their opponents.

There are two more kinds of information embedded in the chart. First, the area of each candidate’s circle is proportional to their perceived likelihood of winning the nomination, according to the Intrade betting market. Mitt Romney’s circle is drawn many times the size of the one for the relatively obscure talk-radio host Herman Cain because Intrade rates Mr. Romney many times as likely to be nominated.

(I should note that there are several cases in which I am in considerable disagreement with the bettors at Intrade about the viability of each candidate. But using their figures as the basis for drawing the circles at least lends some objectivity to the assessment.)

I have excluded candidates like Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey or Jeb Bush of Florida who have strongly denied any interest in running in 2012, even though some of them trade at nonzero values on Intrade.

Finally, the color of each circle reflects the region the candidate is from:
blue for the Northeast, red for the South, green for the Midwest, and yellow for the West.

Does this matter, by the way? I suspect it is somewhat overrated as a factor in the race — the notion, for instance, that voters in Iowa will have any special affinity for a candidate from South Dakota seems tenuous to me — but for parts of the country that have a strong sense of regional cohesion, like the South and perhaps New England, it is worth considering.

Let’s proceed to consider the candidates by working through the four quadrants of our “galaxy.”

Conservative Insiders
These are mainstream, conventional conservatives who will typically have jobs as governors or, especially, senators. Emblematic of the group is Senator John Thune of South Dakota. There is nothing especially distinct about Mr. Thune, whose chances I consider to be somewhat overrated. To some extent, though, that may be the point: he can excel at the areas that establishment candidates are typically good at, like fundraising and garnering endorsements, while at the same time being inoffensive to both moderate and conservative voters. An analogy can be drawn to John Kerry in 2004, an establishment liberal senator who won his party’s nomination under similar circumstances, while other candidates imploded.

The Washington establishment, of course, has not been popular of late — and Mr. Thune has cast some votes that he will have to answer for, like the ones on the federal bailouts. Still, the space surrounding Mr. Thune is not terribly crowded.

The other candidate who clearly seems to fit into his quadrant is Gov. Haley Barbour of Mississippi, but Mr. Barbour may have difficulty appealing to voters outside the South, especially after his recent comments about the civil rights era.

I have also placed Newt Gingrich in this quadrant, but there is a fair amount of distance between him and Mr. Thune, both stylistically and ideologically. Mr. Gingrich is a difficult case, a former Speaker of the House (it’s hard to get more establishment than that) who has more recently aligned himself with Tea Party groups.

Conservative Outsiders.
Central to any discussion of this group is, of course, Sarah Palin, the former Alaska governor. But Ms. Palin, if she runs, may find herself in a crowd. There are several potential candidates in her orbit, like Mr. DeMint, Representative Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, and perhaps Mr. Gingrich; these candidates may compete with her for voters whether or not they are viable themselves.

Meanwhile, there is Mike Huckabee of Arkansas, an old-fashioned populist whom voters see as more moderate than Ms. Palin, especially on economic issues. The constituencies of Mr. Huckabee and Ms. Palin are not exactly the same — she cannot match his appeal to evangelical conservatives, while he may not match hers to the Tea Party. But polls nevertheless suggest that voters who have Ms. Palin as their first choice often have Mr. Huckabee as their second, and vice versa. If either were to stay on the sidelines, the other would become a much more formidable candidate.

Moderate Insiders.
This quadrant may also become quite crowded. Two years ago, I placed Mitt Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, slightly more to the conservative than the moderate side of the spectrum. But between his restraint in latching on to the Tea Party and some of the other causes of the conservative movement, and his having signed a health care bill while in the governor’s office that bears some resemblance to the one passed last year by the Democratic Congress, Mr. Romney seems likely to be branded as a moderate, whether he likes it or not. With that said, Mr. Romney is not so far removed from Mr. Thune, and the two candidates may compete with one another for support in the Republican establishment.

Perhaps of more immediate concern to Mr. Romney is a former Utah governor, John Hunstman, who may run for the presidency now that he is resigning from his post as ambassador to China, effective April 30.

Mr. Huntsman faces some significant hurdles — his name recognition is not terribly high outside Washington and his home state, and if he cannot begin to concentrate on his campaign until May, he may not be able to put together a strong campaign team or raise enough money. Also, his having served in Barack Obama’s administration could make his positioning awkward on a number of levels.

Still, he is similar to Mr. Romney in a number of ways, including policy positions and more superficial attributes like his Mormon faith and his good looks. One nightmarish scenario for Mr. Romney is that Mr. Huntsman takes enough votes away from him to keep him from winning an important early primary like New Hampshire, Nevada or Florida, even though Mr. Hunstman is not likely to win the nomination himself.

Another candidate in the general vicinity of Mr. Romney and Mr. Hunstman is Gov. Mitch Daniels of Indiana, who has more explicitly embraced his moderation. He has called for a “truce”, for instance, on social issues, and expressed a willingness to consider tax increases to rectify a budget deficit.

Mr. Daniels’s position is interesting. While he has a reputation for being a policy wonk, a quality that we would ordinarily associate with an “insider” candidate, his willingness to take controversial stands in some ways credentials him as a critic of the party establishment. Also, to the extent that geography matters, there aren’t very many Midwesterners to directly compete with him, apart (to some extent) from Tim Pawlenty.

Moderate Outsiders.
Except for Mr. Daniels, whom I place right at the insider-outsider threshold, this space is quite vacant, with only two potential libertarian candidates, Rep. Ron Paul of Texas and former gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico, as well Donald Trump, who is considering a presidential run but who — oddly for Mr. Trump — has not attracted much publicity for it. One thing to consider about Mr. Paul and Mr. Johnson is that the votes they attract may come from people who would otherwise cast no vote at all in the race, considering how few other candidates are positioned anywhere near them.

The sparseness of this quadrant may be no accident: centrists of both political parties tend to work within the establishment rather than outside it. One who might have been an exception, Mr. Christie of New Jersey, has repeatedly denied any interest in running.

Tim Pawlenty I had trouble placing him in any of the four quadrants. As Jay Cost of The Weekly Standard points out, — Mr. Pawlenty enjoys something of a reputation as a moderate even though his positions are fairly conservative: he has pledged to reinstate the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, for instance. Likewise, Mr. Pawlenty seems to keep Washington at arm’s length while having supporters within the Republican establishment.

I have been skeptical about Mr. Pawlenty’s candidacy, in large part because his personality is not terribly dynamic and he has had some trouble creating a strong brand for himself; sales of his book “Courage to Stand”, for instance, have been quite weak. Still, he can be credited with a viable strategy: stay a safe distance off the lead lap, and hope for a multicar pileup ahead of him.

That Mr. Pawlenty has been among the first Republicans to build out his campaign infrastructure fits with that strategy — it would be valuable in the car-crash scenario, which implies a long, drawn-out nomination process. So does the fact that Mr. Pawlenty could plausibly position himself as conservative or moderate, insider or outsider, as the situation dictates.


Cycloptichorn
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 01:41 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

I do read articles from pundits ranging from the far left to far right. My comment about what I see as a potential split in the Republican party was based in part of these quotes:
"I predict that unless Republicans act in response to the American people, they will reject Republicans...(and) I think you will see an emergence of a 3rd party."
------------------------------------------
"Why not a 3rd party?
------------------------------------------
"If we do not govern according to our principles...I think there will be a 3rd party in this country."

John McCain, Sarah Palin and John Thune, respectively.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 02:35 pm
@realjohnboy,
rjb, A third party that will be viable in future elections is not promising. (Personal opinion.)
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 02:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
We will see. I got the 2008 electoral map followed by the 538 graph followed by my comments about a 3rd party candidate from days ago, which were ridiculed. I intend to come back to that later on.
But now I need to play football. Steelers!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 08:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:

I think the idea that the Republicans are going to gain 5-8 seats in the Senate in the next election is a stretch to begin with. Do you have specific seats in mind when you say this, or just sort of a nebulous idea of what you think SHOULD happen, based on the last election?

There are a lot of Dems up for re-election, but the majority of them are in very safe seats. And the Republicans have a few seats that they are going to have to fight very hard indeed to keep themselves.

You call the 5-8 seat outcome a 'near certainty.' I don't think that's anywhere near accurate. I'd love to see what actual data you look at that causes you to make statements like that, but I won't hold my breath


This from the guy that forecast that the house would remain a dem majority?
I dont think your predictions can be considered accurate...LOL

Having said that, while I dont know if the dems will retain control of the Senate, I do think that there will be a closer split in the senate.
I do think that the repubs could very well pick up enough seats to narrow the gap, but at this moment I wouldnt bet the farm on it.
It depends on how the voters see the repubs doing, it depends on how the voters perceive the President is doing, and it depends on how the economy is doing and if the repubs can capitalize on that.
If they cant, they could very well end up losing seats, instead of gaining them.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 10:25 am
It's way early for predictions - 21 months to go - but what we do know is that the Democrats will be defending 23 Senate seats in 2012, the Republicans will be defending 10 and need to pick up 4 for a majority. This is barring any unforeseen or surprise retirements.

Charlie Cook of the Cook Political Report has 6 seats in the tossup column for the Democrats and 2 tossups for Republicans. But, as he points out, this is all subject to change since a lot can happen between now and election day. Along with all the variables mentioned by Mysteryman, I'd just add that some of it might also hinge on who ends up being nominated to run by the Republicans.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 10:34 am
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Along with all the variables mentioned by Mysteryman, I'd just add that some of it might also hinge on who ends up being nominated to run by the Republicans.


Well, this is the exact point I've been making for the last two pages on this thread. Without a strong candidate at the top of the ticket, it will be much more difficult for the Republicans to win the Senate.

Given that Ensign is unlikely to win re-election at this point and that Brown in MA may be in for a tough fight, it's hard for me to look at the Senate and say that it's a guaranteed flip at this point. Not only that, but if Obama wins, the Republicans need one more person for control.

I think much will indeed revolve around the choice of presidential candidate for the Republicans, and how he or she stacks up to Obama.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 11:12 am
Just realized that the Iowa caucuses are less than a year away now - 363 days.

The only declared Republican candidate is that pizza dude from Georgia.

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:



The only declared Republican candidate is that pizza dude from Georgia.




That black 'pizza dude' is Herman Cain and he is superior to Obama in every single way.

0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2011 11:42 am
"A pizza in every kitchen!!!"

(Just helping him out with a slogan)
 

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