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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 01:46 pm
@Lambchop,
Seen it already and debunked it elsewhere.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 01:56 pm
The Values Voter Summit in D.C. concluded with a straw poll that is probably totally meaningless:
Paul- 37%
Cain- 23%
Santorum- 16%
Perry- 8%
Bachmann- 8%
Romney- 4%
Gingrich- 3%
Huntsman- 0%
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 02:26 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

I am just going to broadly state that no one wants to take from the rich to give to the poor.

Really? No one? You believe this?

What my point was when I left a link on how the disparity between the richest in America has been growing and the middle class has been disappearing is that for the most part it is through no fault of their own.

No fault of who? The Rich? The Middle Class? "For the most part" implies "for some part." In what ways do you think the middles class has been responsible for the phenomenon you've described?

Companies have not been hiring and they have been underpaying those who are working. Those are simply facts which can be have been verified.

That companies have not bee hiring is indeed a fact. Do you think anyone can or should take the blame for that? Are companies deliberately doing this to increase profits?

"Paying less" is not the same as "underpaying." Do you believe companies have taken advantage of the job scarcity to pay people less than they would have paid 5 years ago; for the same job?

There is a glut of houses on the market in my area, and if were to seel it tomorrow I would get less for it then I would have 5 years ago. Should I blame the current buyer for that?


It is hard for someone who works hard sometimes at two or three jobs, (I am not talking about regular low paying jobs like fast food joints, but regular skilled jobs) and wages stagnate while everything from gas to health care just keeps going up. It is hard to send your kids college in those conditions which just makes the cycle worse. I mean this isn’t rocket science and I think a lot more people relate to this rather than Herman Cain's rants of blaming working people for being poor. We will see in the election cycle.

It is hard to work two or three jobs - even if they are all at fast food joint! It's hard to pay for your kid's college tuition.

Maybe I am totally out of touch with reality. I guess it's possible, but I don't believe there is a significant number of people working three jobs, nor do I believe there is a significant number of people working two "regular skilled jobs". I'm sure these people exist but I don't know even one of them, unless they just haven't told me about their situation.

Virtually all of the people I know who have "regular skilled jobs" have been receiving annual COLAs (cost of living adjustments) of between 2% and 3%. I agree completely that these are meager increases and may not even cover the actual rate of inflation, but they are typically connected to some governmental index and so are not a sham.

I don't know how widespread merit raises are, but if a company isn't making money it's tough to hand out merit raises. One, because the money's not there and two, because its tough to justify anyone meriting a raise if the company isn't turning a profit

If there are companies out there that are not making money and have eliminated merit raises for all but the senior executive ranks then I will be the first to say they are very poorly run and the senior executives should be fired. That sort of practice can not last long though and eventually the executives and/or the company will be out of business. There is no place, however, for the government to step in and attempt to rectify the situation.

You're right though, We'll see how the public feels in the next election.

hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 02:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yeah, I remember that 'debunking' - you called Buffett 'The left's favourite billionaire' I think. That was it.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:01 pm
@hingehead,
I thought George Soros was the left's favorite billionaire.
Rockhead
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:04 pm
@parados,
I vote for Donny Trump.

is he a billionaire this week?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:32 pm
@hingehead,
He probably was that week.

He certainly is whenever the subject of taxing the rich comes up.

But parados is right, the real favorite of the left is Soros, as he gives a lot more than cover.

parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:58 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think you proved my point Finn.

Soros is the favorite leftie billionaire bogeyman for the far right. Except when you want Buffet to be the bogeyman.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:59 pm
@parados,
You have a point?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:04 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I believe you put the wrong punctuation on your sentence Finn.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
That companies have not bee hiring is indeed a fact. Do you think anyone can or should take the blame for that? Are companies deliberately doing this to increase profits?


I don't know they say they don't hire because of uncertainty despite the fact that since the recession they have been sitting on record profits. If they are making profits then regulations aren't hurting them so I don't see how that could be cited as an excuse, yet they do cite it.

Companies pile up cash but remain hesitant to add jobs


If companies don't hire, then it is not the fault of the unemployed if they don't have jobs so Cain was wrong in his speech.

Also, wages have stagnated which has the effect of workers not having enough money to prosper, so again Cain was wrong in speech.

Thirdly, plenty of people work two or even three jobs. Or they long hours for horrible wages. So again, if they don't prosper in spite of doing everything in their power it is not their fault if they are not rich, which means Cain was again wrong in his speech.




In weak economy, some work two jobs


My only point in these series of posts was that Cain was wrong to blame people if they are not rich and I don't think that is going to go over well.


There may be measures to take to encourage companies to hire, or maybe they will simply be shamed into it, I hope so. What is wrong with hoping companies will hire more workers?

Fortunately, last months jobs report looked better than expected.

Quote:
U.S. stock index futures are rising after the government said companies hired more workers in September and previous months were better than original reports suggested.

The Labor Department said employers added 103,000 jobs, while the unemployment rate held at 9.1 percent for the third straight month. About half of the jobs were for Verizon workers returning to work after a strike.

Traders watch the employment report closely because it provides the first significant snapshot of the previous month's performance and provides clues to the broader economic outlook.


source
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 07:01 pm
a couple of bits from the values voter summit

(nymag has many little articles - too many to pick from really)

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/ron_paul_wins_values_voter_sum.html

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/jeffress_mormon_romney_perry.html
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2011 08:19 pm
@ehBeth,
Would you agree that the legitimate media steered clear of the religion issue? Until this weekend, when it boiled over at this Values Voter Summit.
The candidates will try, genuinely try in my opinion, to squash this from becoming part of the debate. But is the genie out of the bottle?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2011 12:45 pm
@revelette,
If someone isn't deliberately keeping you from working, then whose fault is it that you don't have a job?

I suppose you could blame Fate or God, but if you're not inclined to blaming or crediting supernatural forces for the good and bad in life, who is left?

Even if a company is making a lot of money, it is under no obligation to make the jobs of it's workers easier by hiring supplemental workers. Nor is it under any obligation to grow so as to add jobs.

If, for whatever, reason a company wants to sit on its capital and not expand, the only way there might be malfeasence involved would be if the opportunity for additional profit from such growth was pretty near certain. Even in that case , the only people that might be able to collect damages due to the professional negligence of the comany's senior management, would be stockholders, and certainly not anyone saying they would have been hired by the company if not for...

I might agree that a company was af fault for not hiring additional workers if it was clear that by not doing so the quality of goods and services was suffering and the company was in a postion to lose sales and profit.

The only way someone who is out of work can honestly say that his situation is through no fault of his own, is if he has done everything possible to obtain a job. That would be a tough case to make.

People do all sorts of things for reasons that suit themselves. For instance a married mother of three young children who has been collecting unemployment for over a year may not be doing all she can to get another job, because her jobless situation with UE benefits better meets all of her needs than would another fulltime job.

It need not even be debated though, in part because it tends to be counterproductive for all involved, but Cain didn't make his comments gratuitously. He was asked what he thought about OWS and their claims that Wall Street is at fault for the unemployment situation, and that companies are to blame for not gjobs to the unemployed.

I'm sure he realized his comments were contraversial and that they could cost him votes, but either he prefers to say what he believes than curry votes or he thinks what he said will attract votes.

Cain isn't faulting people who are not rich for not being rich. What he's saying is that if they want to be rich or middle class or just employed, it's their responsibility to achieve the goal, not the responsibilty of the private sector...or the government for that matter.

There is nothing wrong with hoping companies will hire more workers because when they do it will mean greater prosperity for all, but its wrongheaded to think they should do so out of shame.

We also need to be careful with incentives because they often back fire.
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 06:30 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You keep missing my point, you can't get a job if there are not enough companies hiring to go around for all the people out of work. I seriously doubt many people choose to except measly benefits instead of a job with a pay check every month. Those benefits don't last all month and barely feed a family and sure don't pay the bills. I challenge you come up with proof of such other than something you just throw out there.

Quote:
The only way someone who is out of work can honestly say that his situation is through no fault of his own, is if he has done everything possible to obtain a job. That would be a tough case to make.


Not it is not a tough case to make. I have already done so and left links to back it up. You have not.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 06:46 pm
Seasoned Journalist claims GOP Primary might be over months before the first vote is cast

Tuesday’s Republican debate will save Perry’s campaign, or end it

Quote:
Perry, the governor of Texas, has lost his position as the front-runner in 2012 polls in recent weeks, amid criticism over his uneven debate performances. His position on Social Security, which he's described as a "Ponzi scheme" and a "monstrous lie" that ought to be administered by the 50 states instead of the federal government, will almost certainly come under scrutiny at the debate. His support for allowing illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition at Texas public universities is also likely to come up, as his rivals have cast the policy as fiscally unwise.
At the last three debates, Perry has struggled to defend his policies, and he has also had trouble delivering scripted attacks against Mitt Romney, his leading opponent for the Republican presidential nomination. Will Perry be better prepared Tuesday night?
The answer could determine the fate of his campaign for the White House. While Perry raised $17 million in his first weeks as a presidential candidate, money alone won't allow the Texas governor to overcome skepticism among Republican voters and party insiders about his ability to defeat President Barack Obama. Only a strong debate showing and a steady grasp of issues can do that.
If Perry can't regain momentum now, he will not be able to recover.
The Texas governor's campaign is taking the moment seriously. Since last month's disastrous Florida debate, Perry has taken time away from campaign events to work on debate preparations and to retool his message offer sharper explanations of his positions. Later this week, he'll deliver what a campaign source describes as a "significant" economic speech in Pittsburgh focusing on energy and jobs—a sign that Perry knows he can't simply rely on his record in Texas to carry him through the nomination fight.
Beyond the substance, Perry is focused on the style of his performance. An unnamed campaign source told Jeff Zeleny of the New York Times that Perry has been practicing his debate routine against a stand-in for Mitt Romney in recent weeks.
And he's also been trying to get more sleep—a notable development, given Perry has appeared to fade in the last hour of his last three debates.
"We had a tired puppy," a "Republican friend" of the candidate told Zeleny. "He had been pushed really hard." That's not exactly the best imagery to use when trying to cast Perry as a strong Republican nominee against Obama next fall.
Perry faces another hurdle heading into Tuesday's debate: Because of his falling poll numbers, Perry's spot at center stage will now be filled by Romney. Perry will have to share the spotlight with Herman Cain, who is now running second to Romney in many national polls.
Clashes between Perry and Romney have dominated the news coverage of previous debates. On Tuesday, it's likely that Cain will go after Perry, whom he has accused in recent days of not being a true conservative.
Between Cain's attacks and Romney's attempts to portray him as unprepared, Perry finds his candidacy on the brink of collapse only two months after his entry into the race.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rick-perry-tuesday-gop-debate-could-crucial-191504658.html#more-21284

Quote:
Holly Bailey, a former White House Correspondent for Newsweek, is joining Yahoo news, reports The Business Insider’s Joe Pompeo.

According to TBI, Ms. Bailey will be the senior politics writer for Yahoo’s new politics/media blog, which is set to launch in earnest this summer.

Ms. Bailey is the latest in a growing list of experienced writers and editors joining the team of expanded blogs currently being assembled by Yahoo’s Jamie Mottram, who we profiled in today’s Observer.

http://www.observer.com/2010/politics/holly-bailey-joins-yahoo


Should we bother to hold the vote?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 06:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Seasoned Journalist claims GOP Primary might be over months before the first vote is cast

Tuesday’s Republican debate will save Perry’s campaign, or end it

Quote:
His support for allowing illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition at Texas public universities is also likely to come up, as his rivals have cast the policy as fiscally unwise.


I think he's on pretty solid ground on this issue. Objections to illegal immigration tend to center on having committed an illegal act by entering the country, becoming a financial burden, and failing to assimilate - whatever that means. To be residents so far as in state tuition goes requires three years verifiable residence. That indicates they were brought by their parents, willingly or not. The 'financial burden' probably wouldn't apply. They are going to be college graduates after all, and by the time they do graduate, I expect they will be fairly well assimilated.

Perry has other issues, which seem more like anchors than a few odd boats to float.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 06:59 pm
@realjohnboy,
Yeah, that poll looks pretty meaningless, alright
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2011 08:01 pm
Another one who is claiming that the Primary is all but over

Mitt’s Unlikely Victory

It’s the most conservative GOP in decades. So why will a moderate like Romney win the presidential nomination?

Quote:
Last week resolved the remaining questions about which Republicans are running for president. Chris Christie, the outspoken governor of New Jersey, and Sarah Palin, the misspoken conservative celebrity, won’t. The field is now set and pointed toward a somewhat surprising outcome. In the most conservative moment the United States has experienced in decades, a party dominated by Tea Party radicalism is on course to nominate the mild and moderate Mitt Romney.
In the interminable staged debates that punctuate the primaries, Romney stands above a quarrelling chorus of patriotic anarchists: Rick Perry, the gallows-loving governor of Texas; Ron Paul, the ascetic libertarian; Herman Cain, an African-American pizza magnate; Rick Santorum, who appeals to the religious right; and Michele Bachmann, who appeals to late-night talk-show hosts in search of material. Newt Gingrich, abandoned by his own staff, remains irrelevantly in the race. So, too, does Jon Huntsman, who has great appeal, but not to any actual Republican voters. These seven dwarves continue to run against Romney while Romney runs against President Obama.
Advertisement
There is sure to be more drama before it’s settled, if only because the media can’t tolerate a stagnant race. But the GOP nomination is now Romney’s to lose, and there’s no obvious reason why he should.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2011/10/mitt_romney_s_victory_the_gop_has_never_been_more_conservative_s.html

My question is, why if we are going to pick in the space of a couple of weeks based off of the money primary , a couple of debates, and poll numbers, why are we doing this more than a full year out from the election? Why not do this around June of next year, why not speed up the process and condense it like the Europeans do?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2011 07:26 am
When does Cain face the heat?

By Jennifer Rubin

Herman Cain has benefited from his own strong debate appearances, his opponents’ ineptitude and a near-total lack of critical attention to his policies. The lack of scrutiny is not surprising, given the fixation on the better-known and -funded candidates. But rival candidates have also strategically ignored his views.

Mitt Romney is no doubt delighted to have Cain knock down Texas Gov. Rick Perry on immigration and political careerism. Perry doesn’t want to go after Cain for fear of letting on that he’s no longer on the same tier as Romney. Other candidates have been loath to attack the funniest, arguably most charming man in the race.

Cain can’t continue to duck questions. He won’t say if he agrees that Mormonism is a “cult,” but shouldn’t voters know his views on this? He acknowledged that he knows little about national security but why should voters trust yet another novice in such dangerous times. What’s remarkable is that his opponents and, more generally, the media haven’t pressed him on these topics or most anything else. Those days may come to an end quickly.

Perry needs to regain the base of support he has lost to Cain. Rick Santorum, who made a strong showing at the Values Voter Summit, needs all the Christian conservative votes in Iowa he can round up. Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) likewise has to get back into the game.

The normal lines of attack against Cain — he’s never won an election, he doesn’t know anything about how Washington operates, etc. — would only endear him to the Tea Partyers. Perry can’t very well boast that he knows more about foreign policy than Cain does. Bachmann isn’t about to make the case that she knows how to get things done in D.C. So where is Cain vulnerable to criticism?

Sometimes the obvious line of criticism is the most compelling. Cain’s 9-9-9 plan is, his critics say, ill-conceived and dangerously naive. I spoke at length yesterday to Rich Lowrie, the “wealth management” consultant who has crafted Cain’s plan. It wasn’t always easy to get straight answers from him, but I learned a number of things that frankly aren’t going to play that well to voters.

His 9 percent sales tax has already been criticized by Santorum and conservative tax gurus. Lowrie says that the tax would have no exemptions. That means food, rent, everything would be subject to the tax. But doesn’t this sock it to the poor and middle class?

Lowrie insists it doesn’t because other “embedded” taxes (corporate taxes, payroll taxes) would be repealed. But most experts think the math here doesn’t work. Lowrie is unconcerned about the enforcement issues and the potential for off-the-books transactions. He insists that, with only a 9 percent rate, we could largely rely on “voluntary compliance.” He insists that politicians would find it hard to raise the sales tax because the rate would be clear to everyone. (Spoken like someone who’s never had a conversation with congressional Democrats.)

Cain’s plan is also vulnerable on the income tax side. After fencing with me for some time, Lowrie acknowledged that Cain didn’t care about progressivity. In devising the plan, Cain aimed for aimed for simplicity, transparency, and ”fairness” (in the “Webster definition” sense, he says, meaning that income is taxed the same for everyone).

Lowrie says it’s just “Washington thinking” to look at whether modest-income Americans will wind up shouldering much more of the tax burden. He repeatedly refused to say how much more of the tax burden would be borne by the poor and middle class than under the current system. But he implicitly acknowledged the problem by saying that the campaign would “fix this” with a new empowerment-zone plan that would be laid on top of the 9-9-9 plan and would presumably lower taxes in inner cities. But how fair is that to people living elsewhere? And aren’t we back to more complexity?

In sum, there is much about the plan that is unpalatable to voters, conservatives included. If Cain’s rivals want to stop his rise and get back in the game, they will need to start debating him on the merits of his ideas. For those who have no plans of their own (Perry), it may be tricky. (Santorum, who has already attacked the sales tax and has a tax plan to bolster domestic manufacturing and help middle-class voters, may have a somewhat easier time.) But whether on taxes or the debt, Cain’s competitors will need to make a decision: Give him a free pass, or begin to challenge the charismatic outsider.
 

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