revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 08:59 am
@Fido,
The Davidian's (cult) were hardly just a group of people living in a house who happened to have owned a lot of guns.

Quote:
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms investigated David Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians' arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.



Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians


I guess we won't know anything more about the START Treaty around Jan.7.





Russia’s START amendments to be ready by Jan 7
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 09:51 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
I don't support Tim Mcveigh or what he done, but the fact is that Waako didn't have to go down that way, and Janet Reno saying I take full responsibility knowing full well no one was going to throw her ass in prison for murder is obscene...If people are minding their own business I don't care how many guns they own... 90% of the time they are nutjobs, and sure, because the government does not tell the truth, and keeps a lot of secrets it does not have to it begs for the rumour mill to turn out garbage... If people are denied the truth they often guess the truth and act on the truth they guess... What choice do they have... They can see their government is not acting in their best interest or in their interest at all... So they are making a stand... By the time anyone reaches for their gun it is already too late because those people with the power will nuke us all before giving it up...


Fido, you have made some very insightful and intelligent posts here, this isn't one of them. Waco was indeed a very sad day in American History. There is no doubt the government over reacted and it is sad so many people died. But, they (law enforcement) had a legitimate reason for being there. There is no way that in any lawful society that you can justify citizens being able to keep an armed camp and refuse entry to law enforcement with a valid warrant. David Koresh was a nutjob and he alone is responsible for what happened there.

You decide to make your stand - accept the consequences.

" If people are denied the truth they often guess the truth and act on the truth they guess... What choice do they have..."

This is a ridiculous statement. The truth is what it is, not what you want to believe or fabricate in the absence of information. They have the choice or rationality.




cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:00 pm
@IRFRANK,
From Wiki:
Quote:
David Koresh (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993), born Vernon Wayne Howell, was the leader of a Branch Davidian religious sect, believing himself to be its final prophet. Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh on May 15, 1990. A 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the subsequent siege by the FBI ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch outside of Waco, Texas in McLennan County. Koresh, 54 adults and 21 children were found dead after the fire.


David Koresh was trying by armed force to keep government out from his compound. Stories of his control over women and children in the compound was reason enough for the government to seek some answers. Koresh was the leader of a cult that under American laws were illegal - such as having more than one wife or having sex with children. The government had every right to inspect the compound to see if any wrong-doing was taking place.

The rest, as they say, is history.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2010 12:29 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
I don't support Tim Mcveigh or what he done, but the fact is that Waako didn't have to go down that way, and Janet Reno saying I take full responsibility knowing full well no one was going to throw her ass in prison for murder is obscene...If people are minding their own business I don't care how many guns they own... 90% of the time they are nutjobs, and sure, because the government does not tell the truth, and keeps a lot of secrets it does not have to it begs for the rumour mill to turn out garbage... If people are denied the truth they often guess the truth and act on the truth they guess... What choice do they have... They can see their government is not acting in their best interest or in their interest at all... So they are making a stand... By the time anyone reaches for their gun it is already too late because those people with the power will nuke us all before giving it up...


Fido, you have made some very insightful and intelligent posts here, this isn't one of them. Waco was indeed a very sad day in American History. There is no doubt the government over reacted and it is sad so many people died. But, they (law enforcement) had a legitimate reason for being there. There is no way that in any lawful society that you can justify citizens being able to keep an armed camp and refuse entry to law enforcement with a valid warrant. David Koresh was a nutjob and he alone is responsible for what happened there.

You decide to make your stand - accept the consequences.

" If people are denied the truth they often guess the truth and act on the truth they guess... What choice do they have..."

This is a ridiculous statement. The truth is what it is, not what you want to believe or fabricate in the absence of information. They have the choice or rationality.





What ws done by our government was what is done, and has been done in foreign relations for ever.... We attack the people of a foreign country because we do not like their leader, and to the limit of our ability we make the people of a defeated country pay us for the war... This was our intent in Iraq, and it was a reason peace did not follow the first world war....

When it was found that Koresh was holed up with a crew of women and children we, meaning the government, should have relaxed the paremeter... Not all at once, but stationed people on all the roads and in the surrounding towns and territory... Sooner or later people would show up or outside to have the necessities of life, and they could be smatched... When the government is afraid of losing face, which is a foreign notion to this hemisphere, then it is bound to act in ways that are destructive of its peoples rights and its own best interest... They could not win there in their minds without an attack when it was the only way they could lose... Koresh was in a box, and whether he called it freedom or not is irrelivent... The government in its fear of the people let itself be manipulated when it was already the master of events... Any one of a thousand right wing religious groups in this country are absolutely correct to take a lesson from the government and give it no tangible support because it is the enemy... It is the enemy of all of us, but only the right wing fringe thinks of them so...

The rumour mill is set in motion when people are denied the truth, and their worst fears about their government are realized... It is the government itself that has done this... That slaughter can be laid at the feet of Reno and Clinton who had the choice of attack or backing off... Their investment of time and money without results put them in the position of seeming ridiculous and powerless when they were not powerless by any means.... It was Koresh who was afraid and had reason to be afraid, but it was the government which acted out of fear so that the giant was driven into activity by a fly...

There were other alternatives, but the investment of manpower demanded results... Well they got their godamned results and a lot of people in Kansas paid for it...And it is just the beignning, and that is not where I want revolution to begin, but that is where it is beginning..

The truth IS always what it is, but our notions of truth are always what we fabricate out of our ignorance of the true facts... More than this; but upon our understanding of the facts is how people reason, and for this reason our notion of the facts is always muddied up by the global warming opponants, and the pro Israel people... People cannot reason nor act out of uncertainty, but they must act regardless and they do, and some times with violence..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2010 12:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

From Wiki:
Quote:
David Koresh (August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993), born Vernon Wayne Howell, was the leader of a Branch Davidian religious sect, believing himself to be its final prophet. Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh on May 15, 1990. A 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the subsequent siege by the FBI ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch outside of Waco, Texas in McLennan County. Koresh, 54 adults and 21 children were found dead after the fire.


David Koresh was trying by armed force to keep government out from his compound. Stories of his control over women and children in the compound was reason enough for the government to seek some answers. Koresh was the leader of a cult that under American laws were illegal - such as having more than one wife or having sex with children. The government had every right to inspect the compound to see if any wrong-doing was taking place.

The rest, as they say, is history.


So what??? Is not every person entitled to his peace in his own area??? The king's peace has always been granted more value than the peace of peasants, but in a democracy without kings each person should be entitled to do as he sees fit so long as he does no injury to others... The people had no case against Koresh until they gave him cause to defend his own and he was in the right to do so... They could have had him any time... He often went to town... They wanted that crap shoot instead of a smooth operation and they got it...

It is not history until its effects are all played out... People made the mistake of writing the history of WWI before its effects had hardly been felt... Our economy is on life support from the very people it has nearly destroyed, and in stead of supporting the people, the economy is supported by them, so that the government which should be our defense against injustice is on the side of injustice and those clowns in the country can tell that clearly...Their anger can be manipulated for a time, but just because the republicans use the anger of the right and play it up, does not mean the government has any true support from those people... You can call the nuts, and you can call them violent, and zealots; but they know they are not being served by their government and they will resist wehn they feel pushed to the wall, as they do... I want change as much as them, and the whole country needs change as much as they; but I do not want to see them pushed into revolution that will inevitably end in civil war... I would rather that we learn to talk to each other, and quickly and quietly change our old form of government to a new and responsive sort... Against the desire of the government and the rich that is unlikely.
0 Replies
 
 

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