Man Bashing, and what Men should do about it

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I take it that she can not put down my argument with fact/evidence/or logic

interesting, since you can't seem use the same things to make your point, just this perception that this how things are

the more i read your thoughts the more i hope you're right, **** men, i've got no stake in this planet, i'm closer to checking out than i am to having to put up with more ****, i hope the women eventually emasculate every man on the planet

1 Reply

@djjd62,

Quote:

interesting, since you can't seem use the same things to make your point, just this perception that this how things are

I routinely point to numbers, the testimony of experts, and make logical connections to support my case. I have argued my basic theme (that the masculine/feminine dance is a mess, that this hurts all of us, and that men are in trouble) over dozens of threads over years making hundreds of individual arguments, and rarely have I been proven wrong. I might still be way off base, but up till now this has not been proven to be so. I am always interested in fact/evidence/argument on this issue, whether it supports my current conclusions or not.

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@hawkeye10,

and as i have now stated, i hope you're right

and that there is no stopping it

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I am not smart enough to come up with solutions on my own

http://www.buyviagrawithoutprescription.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Buy-Viagra-Without-Prescription.jpg

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I have no such obligation, however since I feel that I have perceived a problem that most other people are oblivious to this is certainly my goal.

Oh yes you do. Earlier you wrote:

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I am not smart enough to come up with solutions on my own, which is why I am on a2k trying to discuss the problems that I notice. That is a pretty high threshold that you have there buster, that one should not bring up a problem unless they already have in mind a solution.

You are saying you have brought up a problem. You are saying it should be fixed. Therefore, you assume a burden of demonstrating that such a problem exists in order to ask people to help you find the means to fix the alleged problem.

So far, you have provided no reliable evidence that such a problem exists. There is no reason for anyone to offer solutions when they don't know that there is any such problem.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Being able to talk about this at A2k with a broad mix of people, pretty close to a cross section of the actual population, is a real treat, it is alot different than preaching to the choir like I normally do.

Either that's a very small choir you have there, or you've spent your life finding goofballs who will go along with the whacky bullshit you so commonly post here.

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I am very appreciative that Robbert has both provided A2k, and allowed me to remain even though what I claim is the truth is offensive to much of the membership.

I knew you couldn't continue without giving in to the urge to portray yourself as a martyr to "the truth," a voice crying out in the wilderness. That's your favorite pose. Not only is it pathetic tripe, and as unproven as the silly hypotheses you commonly present here, it's offensive because you try to make yourself out to be noble for whiny **** like this, or despicable positions such as your rape bullshit.

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@firefly,

LOL, Firefly at least you do not need to use or buy Viagra to make your woman happy all you need is a tongue that is in working order and fresh set of batteries.

It even might be helpful that your tongue is split from lying so must. Razz

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I routinely point to numbers, the testimony of experts, and make logical connections to support my case.

You are such a liar. You provide non sequiturs which you claim without good reason to be support for your screeds, and you infer from any "testimony" you do link claims which the material does not in fact support. Far from providing logical bases for believing you are on to anything, your false inferences and unrelated material which you attempt to torture into support for you claims make you out to be either a fool or a liar on a consistent basis. Quoting from a web site with more whiny fools who cry about how hard it is to be a man and how mean women are does not constitute pointing to numbers or providing expert testimony. Making wild claims which in fact, in this case, insult young men as too stupid and/or too unlikely to assert themselves to succeed in life does not constitute logically supporting your silly allegations.

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I have argued my basic theme (that the masculine/feminine dance is a mess, that this hurts all of us, and that men are in trouble) over dozens of threads over years making hundreds of individual arguments, and rarely have I been proven wrong. I might still be way off base, but up till now this has not been proven to be so.

Once again, no one is obliged to disprove your wild claims. If you can't prove them, no one is obliged to take your whiny BS seriously.

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I am always interested in fact/evidence/argument on this issue, whether it supports my current conclusions or not.

No you're not. If anyone disagrees with you, you insult them, make snide characterizations of what they have actually written, and sneer at them while you wrap yourself in your phony martyr flag. Your responses to Firefly are a prefect example of how little interest you have in either supporting your case, or accepting criticism and incredulity.

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@BillRM,

BillRM, I hate to tell you this, but every smart woman who is not afraid to speak her mind is not a lesbian. Every woman concerned about the problem of rape is not a lesbian. And, that this is the way you choose to insult and put-down a woman you personally find threatening, shows what a warped misogynist you are.

And every woman who thinks you are a vulgar, dumb jackass is neither a liar nor a man-hater. And I'm pretty confident that women holding such opinions are in the majority.

1 Reply

@firefly,

It's not just the wimmins who see him that way.

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@hawkeye10,

Hawkeye, Setanta really has you pegged.

Quote:

I routinely point to numbers, the testimony of experts, and make logical connections to support my case. I have argued my basic theme (that the masculine/feminine dance is a mess, that this hurts all of us, and that men are in trouble) over dozens of threads over years making hundreds of individual arguments, and rarely have I been proven wrong.

True, you harp on those basic themes of male/female relationships being "a mess", and men being "in trouble"--which you blame on the actions and attitudes of women, of course--in dozens of threads over years. But stop deluding yourself that, "rarely have I been proven wrong". You haven't been proved wrong, but you also haven't been proved right. Generally, people, both male and female posters, have disagreed with you. You dismiss all differing opinions with insults lodged at those offering them. You disregard any other ways of evaluating problems from any perspective other than your own, which is rather narrow. And you present your basic premises in such a vague, garbled, non-specific, over generalized manner, it is difficult to ascertain exactly what you are talking about, and in all those threads, over the years, you haven't managed to either clarify your thinking, give specific examples, enumerate what you see as the major problems, and provide a clear rationale for the basis of your conclusions. So, mostly people tend to give up and ignore your posts, or they wind up insulting and ridiculing you.

If you think you're educating, or informing, or even making people think about "your issues", you are sorely misinformed. All that comes across in your numerous posts is your own whining, self pitying, "woman-blaming" attitude, your needs for attention and recognition, your feelings of inadequacy and insignificance--your own personal "issues". And that's why these threads generally wind up focusing on you, and not the alleged sociological gender disconnect you purport to be addressing.

I don't happen to think male/female relationships are "a mess". I don't think "men are in trouble". Those assumptions are much too broad and unsubstantiated and undifferentiated to even consider. Are relationships more of "a mess" than they ever were? What exactly do you mean by "a mess"? Are you talking about marital relationships? Dating relationships? Sexual relationships? Work place relationships? Is this true for men and women of all ages, in all socioeconomic classes? And, in what way are men "in trouble"? Exactly what are the objective, quantifiable indicators that men are having problems--and in what areas are these problems manifest? Is this true of men of all ages? Married men as well as unmarried or divorced men? Men of all socioeconomic backgrounds and all educational levels?

That your daughter and a handful of her teenage friends find their male contemporaries lacking (your reputable "source" for one of your recent pronouncements), does not mean that the entire younger generation of men are a bunch of losers because they have been "over-feminized" by their "nutty mothers" (one of your most recent conclusions).

Teenage women have always complained about their male counterparts. And that's because young men in our culture do tend to be somewhat less socially and emotionally mature than the young women. This isn't recent, not by a longshot. And we've extended the period of adolescence even more with those young people who go onto college--they have 4 more years of relative shelter from the harsher realities of adult life and adult responsibilities, and 4 more years of economic dependency on parents--and, since young men apparently focus less on graduate school and specific future goals during those 4 college years, they might continue to impress young women as being less mature.

Does this mean that our younger men are all "in trouble", that woman aren't going to want to have anything to do with them, won't want to date them, won't want to marry them? I don't see any evidence, at all, of that happening. Women still date, still search for "Mr. Right", still get married. And, the fact that women are tending to marry at later ages than before, gives the guys more of a chance to grow up and mature a little more and catch up with the women in that regard. And the men do catch up--most of them, eventually. Smile

But I really don't see any alarming wide-scale rejection of adult men by adult women, and I honestly don't see any widespread "man bashing" or devaluation of adult men going on that is being perpetrated by adult women.

So, stop trying to convince everyone that all men are going to hell in a handbasket because of what your teenage daughter and her friends are complaining about. That's hardly your best indication of what most women actually feel about most men, and it tells you nothing about what young men think of themselves.

And, BTW, mothers have always coddled their sons. I believe even Homer pointed that out. And men have still managed to survive and thrive throughout the millennia. And when has the older generation not complained about the younger one?

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@firefly,

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If you think you're educating, or informing, or even making people think about "your issues", you are sorely misinformed. All that comes across in your numerous posts is your own whining, self pitying, "woman-blaming" attitude, your needs for attention and recognition, your feelings of inadequacy and insignificance--your own personal "issues". And that's why these threads generally wind up focusing on you, and not the alleged sociological gender disconnect you purport to be addressing

My motive is discovery of truth, so I dont care much about the interaction between this process and your emotional reaction to it. Your once again making it all about why the questions are being asked, about why a person in interests/focusing on this area of the human existence is a blatant cop out, it is you refusing to deal with the issue being raised.

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You dismiss all differing opinions with insults lodged at those offering them. You disregard any other ways of evaluating problems from any perspective other than your own

You say that over and over again, as if you could know. At best this could only be a hunch, and I have told you over and over again that you are wrong. I hear the other opinions, they are mostly opinions that I have heard before, and they do not offer sufficient fact/evidence/or new way of looking at the subject to refute my claim. According to me. I decided for me how I value fact/evidence/insight, not you.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

And, BTW, mothers have always coddled their sons. I believe even Homer pointed that out. And men have still managed to survive and thrive throughout the millennia. And when has the older generation not complained about the younger one?

Yes, and men who have done their job have always made sure that their sons did not get so much coddling that their boys were ruined for life. Men today often are incapable of standing up to their women, thus transmitting this masculine/feminine dance disturbance down the evolutionary chain, as they allow their sons to be ruined by women. Both men and women are responsible for this.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Men today often are incapable of standing up to their women, thus transmitting this masculine/feminine dance disturbance down the evolutionary chain, as they allow their sons to be ruined by women. Both men and women are responsible for this.

Sorry Hawkeye I do not agree that all men need to be in a power battle with their women or need to be in charge of the family to be men.

The very last major decision that my father made in his life was when he said I do on his wedding day.

Still it seems to have work out just fine for my parents and they had over fifty years together.

A wonderful man even those if he caught me doing something wrong as a child I would always ask him to punish me not my mother.

The only downsize for me as an adult is being drawn to very strong will women and sadly I lack the easy going personality of my father to live with such women happily.

For some strange reason after decades of off and on relationship and trying with my wife I learn how to live in a relationship with such a woman and could not now be happier.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Sorry Hawkeye I do not agree that all men need to be in a power battle with their women or need to be in charge of the family to be men.

that is fine with me, because I am not saying it either. There only needs to be a battle when one side refuses to compromise with the other through negotiations, and who is in charge is up the the couple not me. What I object to is the teaching that women should be in charge, that women should get without complaint from men any and all power that they demand. What I object to is the assumption that there should not be equality between thew sexes, because women claim victim status and claim that they need to be in charge of the relationship (and sex law) for their own protection. Women alive today overall are not victims, their support for the claim of victim status is actually weaker than is the potential claim of men to claim to be the victims. Modern women are trying to parley their mothers and grandmothers being victims into power for themselves, because once they got to equality they decided that they could and should keep going, that since they had the ability to overpower men that they should take it.

The rape scare is one finger of an overall program to keep men cowards, because while almost all men know that they would never rape, in their minds they accept that the claim that so many of their fellow men do rape that the women's power grab is justified. I think that once we get science to look at this men will see that the claim that women make is BS, but we need to get to that point where proof is demanded from the women for their claims before we can start making steps back towards equality.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I hear the other opinions, they are mostly opinions that I have heard before, and they do not offer sufficient fact/evidence/or new way of looking at the subject to refute my claim. According to me. I decided for me how I value fact/evidence/insight, not you.

You dismiss all other opinions, and all other ways of looking at the subject, because, in your mind, they offer you nothing to refute your "claim". Could that be because your mind is already closed? Rolling Eyes

Are you interested in discussing something, or do you want to just preach?

You fabricate a sweeping, over generalized problem--i.e. all young men are "ruined"--never specify exactly which young men (All racial and religious and ethnic groups? All socioeconomic levels? All educational backgrounds and levels?etc.)-- without providing specific reasons you have arrived at this conclusion (other than the fact your teenage daughter and her friends say so)--never specify exactly how the young are "ruined" (Are they all on drugs or booze? Compulsive gamblers? Criminals? Idle and unemployed? Irresponsible? Mentally ill? Morally bankrupt?) or exactly what you are talking about--and then blame it on their parenting, but mostly their mothers (there are no other significant factors besides parenting that affect development?)

So, what is it you want to discuss? You've made up your own problem and come up with your own answer. Where is there room for discussion?

Look, if your idea of "masculinity" is predicated on the man being the breadwinner, or the primary breadwinner of the family, which automatically makes his wife economically dependent on him, assuring the man of his "value" and worth, as well as his ability to influence major control over his wife, you will be miserable if you can't come to terms with the fact that women now outnumber men in the workforce, most families are living on two salary incomes, and some wives earn more than their husbands. That is the reality of today's world. In addition, women now do many of the jobs formerly held only by men, and there are fewer and fewer jobs that specifically require a man to perform them. That is the reality of today's world. Positions of power and influence in society, once reserved only for men, are increasingly being held by women. That is the reality of today's world. And if you can't accept all of those things, without it damaging your sense of "masculinity", you will be miserable and unsure of your "manliness".

So yes, men like you might be "in crisis" if they can't accept the changes that have occurred in the past 50 years, and how those changes have affected notions of "masculinity" and "femininity". But many men, if not most, have adjusted rather nicely to these changes. Married men now have a partner to share the financial burdens of the family. Families can enjoy a higher standard of living. A husband is more than the wife's meal-ticket. Most men are not complaining about these changes. And young men, having grown up in this more gender equalized world, with working mothers, have never expected it to be otherwise, so their sense of "masculinity" is not as likely to even be based on notions of power and control.

"Masculinity" can no longer be based on notions of power and control by men over women. Nor can men be assured they will retain exclusive power and control over the structure and functioning of the larger society. So, any man who cannot shift his concept of "masculinity" from one which views power and control and independence as the exclusive province and entitlement of men, and the attainment of those things as the defining aspect of "masculinity", is going to find himself feeling like a failure and unsure of his worth--because that definition of "masculinity" is inconsistent with today's reality.

So, all your bitching, and moaning, and whining, Hawkeye, really reflects the fact that your particular view of "masculinity" is causing you to feel marginalized and powerless. You can't come to grips with the fact that women have co-opted what you feel belongs only to men. You confuse equality with males being in an inferior position. Because you feel a loss of power, you assume you are at a disadvantage, but the situation has simply become more equal. And most men accept that, and even support it. Women are not the cause of your problems, Hawkeye, you've created the problems for yourself by viewing everything from a competitive perspective--if you're not on top, and in control, you don't feel equal, you feel second rate, and that includes how you see male/female relations. This is not a problem for most men--but it is a problem for you. Your expectations are out of whack with reality, and that reality is not going to change.

There is no significant problem these days with male/female relationships in general--people still want the same things in a partner, particularly a marital partner--love, devotion, companionship, support, honesty, loyalty, consideration, caring, and sharing, and both men and women are finding these things in partners, and giving these things to partners. Are they finding and giving it 100% of the time? Of course not, but did they ever find or give it 100% of the time? And most men are not reporting being in "crisis" about these things.

So, Hawkeye, I find your "claims" not only without merit, I think they have no basis in reality. And your assumptions and conclusions are equally unsupported.
You aren't engaged in a discussion. This is just another in your long line of pity parties. Grow up.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

What I object to is the teaching that women should be in charge, that women should get without complaint from men any and all power that they demand.

Who exactly is teaching that? Who exactly is saying that? Don't just say something vague, like "feminists"--be very specific, name names. I'd like to know, because I've never heard anyone saying that sort of thing, or anything close to it. Is this another one of your fabricated claims?

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What I object to is the assumption that there should not be equality between thew sexes, because women claim victim status and claim that they need to be in charge of the relationship (and sex law) for their own protection

Does your wife claim she is a victim and needs to be in charge of the relationship for her own protection? Where are you drawing your conclusions from?

Apart from when they are the victim of a crime, I don't hear women complaining about being victims in the larger society. Where do you hear this, who is saying it? Again, don't say "feminists"--be specific, name names, give quotes.

And yes, when it comes to rape, women are overwhelmingly the victims--something like 98% of the time. But I haven't heard women demanding to be in charge of the rape laws. Laws pertaining to sexual assaults, like most laws in our country, are still being written and enacted by men. I have no problem with that, nor does any other woman I know. The laws are just fine. They should just be better enforced,with police investigation of all rape complaints, and prompt testing of all rape kits. Most rapists are never prosecuted for their crimes.

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The rape scare is one finger of an overall program to keep men cowards, because while almost all men know that they would never rape, in their minds they accept that the claim that so many of their fellow men do rape that the women's power grab is justified.

What are you claiming now, that women aren't being raped? The numbers aren't high enough to convince you it's a problem?

Are you saying it's not men who are committing the rapes? But they do--98% of the time--rapes of both men and women, it is not only women who are raped.

What "power grab" is going on by women regarding the rape laws? Do you see rape as only a "woman's issue"? Doesn't it occur to you that men, who have mothers, wives, girlfriends, daughters, granddaughters, sisters, aunts, and nieces, also want to see these women protected from sexual assault and have a vested interest in their safety, and for this reason they support the rape laws? And, as I said before, it's still mainly the men who write and pass those laws. And I don't hear women complaining about that.

You just don't like the fact that those rape laws give a woman the right to say, "No" to a sex act, and, without her consent, that act is an assault and legally rape. You feel that it gives the woman too much power. You don't like the fact she has the right to deny you permission to invade her body. Yoo hoo, listen up, it's her body. She has the right to exercise control over her body and what is done to it. Guess what? You have that same right with regard to your body. These sexual assault laws give both men and women the right to control who has access to their body. And those same laws protect those vulnerable individuals, both male and female, deemed unable to consent, or too young to consent.

So, first you complain about woman claiming to be victims, but then you shift gears and complain that men are victimized by rape laws. So it's all right for you to whine about being a victim, but it's bad when a woman does it? Rolling Eyes

?

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Modern women are trying to parley their mothers and grandmothers being victims into power for themselves, because once they got to equality they decided that they could and should keep going, that since they had the ability to overpower men that they should take it

What is this, some vast conspiracy of women you see operating? Do you think we have secret meetings, plan strategies to overpower men? Are you out of your mind? Women wanted equality, yes. Because equality does mean opportunity--opportunity to do whatever your talent, and ability, and ambition, and hard work enables you to do. "Over powering men" has nothing to do with it. It just means women aren't being deliberately held back on the basis of their gender, and they can strive and advance as far as their abilities and determination and effort can take them. It's not a competition with men, to "overpower men". It's simply women realizing their own potential, being able to realize their own ambitions--just as men have always done, and just as men will continue to do.

You really don't want equality, Hawkeye. You are always in a battle for power. You are always in a competition. You even do it on these threads. You want to have your hot sweaty hands on the reins of control all of the time, and when you feel it slipping through your fingers, you start a thread like this one and moan and whimper about being victimized by women, and claim it's being done to all men by all women. Except the other men aren't agreeing with you, and no one is passing the tissues.

Better not watch this movie, Hawkeye, or you'll have nightmares for life Laughing

http://www.moviepostershop.com/attack-of-the-jungle-women-movie-poster-1020427529.jpg

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@firefly,

Attack of the Jungle Woman! ROFL!

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@firefly,

Quote:

You dismiss all other opinions, and all other ways of looking at the subject, because, in your mind, they offer you nothing to refute your "claim". Could that be because your mind is already closed

it could be, but I have said that it is not, and of course I am in a position to know and you are not.

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Are you interested in discussing something, or do you want to just preach?

I want to discuss, which is why when someone brings up something new or challenges the assertions that I make I try to interact with that person,

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So, all your bitching, and moaning, and whining, Hawkeye, really reflects the fact that your particular view of "masculinity" is causing you to feel marginalized and powerless

I am well aware that you despise traditional masculinity, blame it for all manor of social ills. I do not. I also do not feel marginalized or powerless, if I did I would not be making the effort to fix what I see as a problem, I would have concluded that there was nothing that I could do. I would love to knwo why you persist on pop psychologizing people whom you have never met and whom you do not know. There has got to be some kind of interesting story on how you twist your fantasies into perceptions of reality. I am betting that it is closely related to your fantasy that you have the right to attempt to run other people lives.

But I am kinda tired of talking about you and me, the subject of gender relations is important so I would like to get back to it if you dont mind.

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@firefly,

Quote:

Who exactly is teaching that? Who exactly is saying that? Don't just say something vague, like "feminists"--be very specific, name names. I'd like to know, because I've never heard anyone saying that sort of thing, or anything close to it. Is this another one of your fabricated claims?

that would be the feminists who claim that all sex not initiated by a woman is rape. That would be all the guys I hear prattling off "if mama ain't happy, nobodies happy" to explain to friends and onlookers their pussy whipped condition. Amongst others. It is the teaching of the culture, I maintain that it is common knowledge, and needs no proof. Your claiming not to know this I maintain is more in a long line of your intellectual dishonesty.

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Does your wife claim she is a victim and needs to be in charge of the relationship for her own protection?

Yes, and I made the mistake of allowing it for many years until I finally wised up

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Where are you drawing your conclusions from?

the people that I interact with in life.

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Apart from when they are the victim of a crime, I don't hear women complaining about being victims in the larger society

then you dont get out much. It is difficult to read any days news without some piece written from the slant of "women are victims". It is difficult to find a a feminist screed that does not start from that proposition. I dont think that everyday women do believe that they are victims, which I think is going to be the undoing of the feminists as real remove support for the cause that no longer represents their values.

Quote:

So, first you complain about woman claiming to be victims, but then you shift gears and complain that men are victimized by rape laws. So it's all right for you to whine about being a victim, but it's bad when a woman does it?

There are victims, sometimes women are victims and sometimes men are victims. what I object to is a wholesale power grab by one gender on the grounds that they have been victimized by the other, when almost all such systemic victimization ended long ago. Sure, men are now being victimized but neither I nor most men are going to go on and on about being victims like women do, we will simply fight for equality and justice. You and and a few others around here have it that when ever people claim and injustice that you dont agree with that they are whining victims. YOu either dont know what a victim is or you are throwing turds, my bet is the latter.

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What is this, some vast conspiracy of women you see operating? Do you think we have secret meetings, plan strategies to overpower men

Ya, that would be the majority of the work done by the feminists movement after the radicals took it over and drove out the conservatives and most of the moderates.

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You really don't want equality, Hawkeye.

When calling someone a lier it is best to at least be in a position to know the truth. You claiming to know the mind of the person behind and tag on a forum is hilarious.

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Except the other men aren't agreeing with you, and no one is passing the tissues.

I have met lots of both women and men who agree with me. My position is the minority position and I am working with others to make it the majority position. We shall see how it goes. I like our chances.

0 Replies

Man Bashing, and what Men should do about it

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