If you are a low/no meat eater, how do you feel about meat imitations?

@farmerman,

I recall eating (or trying to eat) edamame in a Japanese restaurant. It was part of a Bento box and was served as a boiled salted veggie. It was bitter, fuzzy,stringy, and still vile tasting. It had the bean consistency of lupinis but the pod was hardly "delicious" or even edible. If you like that stuff, go for it. I dont like to hate my food.
Is there a great call for edamame in the US right now? Or is this another food import thats based on some fad thingy.

I get the point that, you seem to prefer eating this way. I can tell you stories of "stinky tofu" that Ive eaten in Phillipines and durian fruit that some people actually like. Better you than me.

Still, if you wanna preach about the benefits of soy, get involved with its culture, then decide if its a worthwhile product to ingest

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@farmerman,

Aren't you a scientist, Farmer? Have you ever had a bad steak, a hamburger that wasn't quite up to your standards? Really, how can you be so dumb/ignorant as to think and suggest that your one experience with edamame constitutes the be-all and the end-all test of what is tasty or not.

I've had edamame that wasn't good. That happens with everything. I've had carrots that were ****, corn that I wouldn't feed my horses, potatoes that, well you get my drift.

I've had, numerous times, many many times, edamame beans that were succulent, the edible portion of the shells came off and melted in my mouth, leaving only the husk portion. The taste was exquisite.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Still, if you wanna preach about the benefits of soy, get involved with its culture, then decide if its a worthwhile product to ingest

I don't think that you're being very honest about these "drawbacks". I read an article in Wiki and other than the rainforest concerns, I saw none of the bad things you've presented.

You don't have to knock down [unacademically] something in order to defend your personal eating choices.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
So I don't eat GE soybeans from Monsanto crops.

Thats impossible. You arent given the choice. If you eat any kind of tofutti or such, the raw material is hardly grown by the makers of tofu.

I'll concede this point. I still believe that people eating animal products are more likely to eat MORE soy over the long run, so what the point?

It's not just the tofutti or tofu. Go examine your cupboards. Like I said, I'm not a soytarian. The vegan diet does not rely on soy.

farmerman wrote:

I think this discussion had earlier turned on to a demonization of meat.

I think that is an oversensitivity on your behalf. I think more effort has been put into morally equivocating soy with animal farming in this thread. I think the opposite is more likely. Given where the thread started and where we are now, how could you argue otherwise. We aren't in a thread defending eating meat, and I've not asked you to do any such thing. Quite contrary, we are in a thread and the consumption of soy is being demonized.

This is often why I avoid the topic all together, because people get way defensive. I don't care. Eat meat. Be happy. I'm happy you grass feed your cows. I still see that as a positive contribution in the grander picture.

farmerman wrote:

1Grass fed beef , lamb, is easily procured.

I'm happy that this is becoming the case. I hope for those who choose to eat meat that accessibility is increased and the market changes for them.

farmerman wrote:

2Tell me how you avoid GM soy products

Well, this wasn't as hard as I thought. I went into my kitchen and grabbed the block of tofu I had in there. I tracked the brand backwards through the distributer, and they don't use Monsanto crops. The tofu is legit.

Did i go searching super hard for this block of tofu? No. It just happens to be the brand I like.

farmerman wrote:

3Feed lots and livestock diest are driven by choice and market. If the consumer would demand only grass fed beef and only corn fed pork, itd happen. I command a premium for grass fed beef and its a nutritious tasty product.

Why is organic tofu any different than grass fed beef in terms of what people want and get? Looks like I offered you my concession too soon. It is not only possible, it's not even difficult.

farmerman wrote:

4Soy is an indutrial rop, to call it ag is almost a joke.It ranks up there with sugar and tobacco in my mind. Only a bit more than 25% of soy goes for animal and human food use, most is used for veggie oil and chemical /plastics.

So what you're saying is that 75% of the crop is not even being consumed and some portion of that could even be cut if not being fed to animals. So in the end, how big is the soy crop for just human dietary consumption, and what is the pollution from that portion?

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@ehBeth,

Cool links.

I think I'm pretty fortunate for living in a place with many locally owned organic groceries. There is one place close to where my girlfriend lives where the owner will wander the isles and ask how people like products and ask if there is anything he should order. The place gets major cred for checking on the products they bring in.

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@failures art,

What I thought was interesting in that search was that most of the non-GMO soy comes from China, and they're looking at switching over due to the increased yield of the GMO product.

I really really hope it doesn't go that way. I like quite a few soy/tofu-based foods, have to limit them for health reasons - wouldn't want to give them up altogether. I've already worked hard to get most corn/corn-based food out of my diet. I'm getting tired of the need to label-read label-read.

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@failures art,

Quote:

Why is organic tofu any different than grass fed beef

Im dubious that there even IS such a product. growing soy as a non row crop in organic means is nigh on almost impossible,itd take so much hand cultivating and weeding.

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We aren't in a thread defending eating meat,

Thats apparent. You and a few others have mounted some moral mountain. I dont hate veggies, I think they do have a place on my plate , next to the beef or chicken .

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I hope for those who choose to eat meat that accessibility is increased and the market changes for them.

Im so happy you approve. I shall alert the media

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backwards through the distributer, and they don't use Monsanto crops.

Glyphosate is not a product protected by patent for several years, so, while Monsanto glyphosate may not be used, the inoculants may still be used , just under another name. Thats how they fool you. I would check to see whether any GLYPHOSATE was used in the innoculants or in the fields

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@farmerman,

Remember the lupini thread? Msolga's, I think. People have shown up over the years to tell how to have them be delicious..

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@ossobuco,

yes I recall. But I was a sort pf a detractor to someone who stated that lupinis are a wonderful source of protein and they could live on them. I stated that they re also aq source of alkaqloids which must be removed by vigorous boiling or extracting. WHile soy isnt poisonous ;like l;upinis, they are relatively indigestible without processing. Even cattle soy meal is first heated and baked. The full cost of soy products is usually conveniently dismissed.

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@farmerman,

Farmerman, you seem to be avoiding going on about all the very hard to get rid of problematic 'weeds' that are cropping up on land where the roundup readiness concept has been acted out. I suppose because that is not (or is it?) specific to soy production as it is practiced in the U.S. (including in, hey, filled in deltas, if I remember, but maybe I mix that up with corn). Not that I know those major weed are showing up in fill land. Where that is happening, I take it that people will have to go back to tilling in the olden manner, with follow up erosion in various cases.

I'm not against genetic modification in some kind of blanket way. I could be some time later. I'm just not automatically against it. But that glyphosphate (I knew it as glycophosphate) ready aspect of soy production over immense acreage is, to me, the monster in the room.

I also figure that small farmers of diverse produce have fewer places to plant with all this amoeba like growth of acreage re certain plants like soy and corn.

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@ossobuco,

Yep, Monsanto renammed the very molecule from glycophosphate to GLYPHOSATE. But thats all history, the patents have expired and every little chemical company is making the stuff. Roundup used to cost me 195 bucks for 2.5 gallons, now I can buy BUCCANEER for 30 bucks and its the same molecule, (except its reverted back to its CAAS name of glycophosphate.

Soybeans , because they are a tangly fuzzy plant that grows from a row into a tangled mess until it begins to dry (when it reverts to standing more erect) , is a hard bastad to weed. Tilling by hand may work for rice and soy in China but , we grow (still) about 90 million acres of the stuff, and , as far as I know, we dont have many AMish soybean farms where the keds go out and weed by hand.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Why is organic tofu any different than grass fed beef

Im dubious that there even IS such a product. growing soy as a non row crop in organic means is nigh on almost impossible,itd take so much hand cultivating and weeding.

Well that's great. Thanks for wasting my time researching. I can take time to verify a claim of my own, and you just say "dubious" and voila, back to square one.

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
We aren't in a thread defending eating meat,

Thats apparent. You and a few others have mounted some moral mountain. I dont hate veggies, I think they do have a place on my plate , next to the beef or chicken .

Again, I think you're being way oversensitive. The moralizing is coming from you. This thread was getting along just fine before it got invaded by people wanting to moralize... about soy. You and Set even had a little exchange back and forth about how Thomas was going to come back in the morning and be a moral prince. I think you're having this moral argument all by yourself. You make both your own and my arguments. Never mind how I actually feel about the topic, you've decided I'm trying to get to the moral high ground.

You are being way defensive about this.

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
I hope for those who choose to eat meat that accessibility is increased and the market changes for them.

Im so happy you approve. I shall alert the media

Oh brother. Now what? This is just uncalled for.

You know, this kind of thing is totally unfair FM. I am very accepting of other's choices and you are practically demanding me to fulfill your expectation as a crazy orthodox vegan. Why do this? I'm not moralizing you, and I don't care to make you feel or think you don't.

First I'm demonizing eating meat, and now you're "happy" I approve. I can't win here. No matter what I seem to say, it's the wrong thing. Why be so adversarial?

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
backwards through the distributer, and they don't use Monsanto crops.

Glyphosate is not a product protected by patent for several years, so, while Monsanto glyphosate may not be used, the inoculants may still be used , just under another name. Thats how they fool you. I would check to see whether any GLYPHOSATE was used in the innoculants or in the fields

Fine, whatever dude. You aren't interested in my contributions. You aren't interested in having your assumptions challenged here.

People want grass fed beef and the market changes, but somehow people want organic soy and the market won't carve out for them, and any claim to do so is "dubious."

You seem more interested in putting vegans in a moral ditch than I am interested in putting them on a mountain. Who is moralizing?

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Why is organic tofu any different than grass fed beef

farmerman wrote:

Im dubious that there even IS such a product.

Then how do you explain that organic soybeans, and organic soybean derivatives, are so easy to find with a trivial Amazon search for "organic soybeans"?

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@Thomas,

Mostly because I have NEVER seen an organic soybean farm. I think that F.A. had a key though. When he said that he contacted a soy product manufacturer, they said that they dont use any MONSAANTO product. "Roundup" has been off patent for a few years so Glyphosates can be called anything and one can truthfully say that they dont use any MONSANTO chemicals (cause maybe they are using glyphosate made by Ben and Jerrys'a).

Soy has problems being cultivated by more primitive means , like horse drawn teamas also because the plant roots are very delicate(unlike corn). When plants are team tilled, a little damage occurs to the plant. grains like corn or sorghum come right back and plants like tobacco are tended by hand because they bring about 2$ a pound, so each plant is worth about 4 bucks dry. soy isnt worth that nuch oer bushel (last ount in Lancaster STock price is about 4dollrs a BUSHEL). Tobbaco and veggies give a net dollar yield (over cost) of about 2K per acre, soybeans only give about the same as wheat , or about 500 $ per acre over cost.

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

Well, this wasn't as hard as I thought. I went into my kitchen and grabbed the block of tofu I had in there. I tracked the brand backwards through the distributer, and they don't use Monsanto crops. The tofu is legit.

Excuse me, the tofu is legit? Just because they don't use Monsanto seed? Did you verify that they use the more expensive and yield-reducing cultivation methods which are the only way to reduce the otherwise drastic wind and water erosion? Did you verify that they don't use chemical fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides? You know for a fact that that tofu is "legit," huh?

(It would be ironic if you learned they bought their soy beans from Brazil, and that they were grown on land which was, until quite recently, rain forest.)

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@Setanta,

I'm not going to bother to do more footwork here Set. The tofu is organic, and for that matter the farm was local within 100 miles (an unknown fact to me when I purchased it). I can only be called a fool, and a liar for so long. Drop it.

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I won't drop it. I didn't call you either a fool or a liar. Your earlier post specified none of those things which you now allege, and they are legitimate questions to anyone asserting that their tofu is legitimate. What you have there is extremely rare--FM has already pointed out how low a return there is on planting soy beans, and how difficult and expensive it is to raise it in quantity by any means other than traditional, chemical intensive, clean row cropping. It is perfectly reasonable to ask these questions, and you're not the only participant here, so don't tell me to "drop" anything.

What a wonderful little thread nazi you are.

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@Setanta,

Set, stop picking fights. I won't play your game.

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Fine, don't tell me to chill out, don't tell me to dop it, and don't try to control the discussion, and i won't call you a thread nazi any longer--which is what you are when you try to take over and talk to people that way.

Soy beans are not an environmentally responsible, low-impact crop in all but a handful of cases. It is completely legitimate to question how they were produced, whether you like it or not.

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@Setanta,

I've only interested in discussing facts. Do not appreciate you trying to incite me with insults. Please stop, I'm not interested Set.

Insight not incite.

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If you are a low/no meat eater, how do you feel about meat imitations?

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